<p>My daughter had a first-year roomate who was Korean and spoke just enough English to get by. She now has a much better control of the language than she did three years ago. I remember one conversation in particular they had in freshman year:</p>
<p>"What elective are you taking next semester?"</p>
<pre><code> "I taking Ar'bic. Very good for women."
</code></pre>
<p>"Wait. What? Arabic?"</p>
<pre><code> "No, not Ar'bic. Ar'bic."
</code></pre>
<p>I have a Korean student who has been in the US for eighteen years, and I am still explaining idioms to her....amazing how many came out of old television shows, particularly westerns! She looked at me like I was nuts when I said something about "heading this off at the pass", but the next student who was waiting was from Montana, and she knew what I meant! We have laughed about that one many times.</p>
<p>The overall size of a stand alone conservatory could feel limiting for a non-shy or more social musician. With total enrollments of under 1000 students, these conservatories are smaller than even the smallest LACs. While this isn't a problem for a lot of musicians, very gregarious types may find the experience limiting, and not because they are necessarily seeking frat parties or football games, but because they need more kids in general to meet and socialize with.</p>
<p>I think I know what you mean AllMusic...but let me offer a counter view. DS's undergrad university had 35K plus students...BUT the instrumental music program had less than 250 students. The reality is that my son could have been going to a college with 250 students for all the "interaction" he had with non-music majors. The reality was that he spent all of his time in the music building, had a job in the music business, partied with the music majors, lived with music majors, went to movies bars etc with music majors...you get the picture. He is now at a conservatory with about the same number of music majors and a total enrollment of about 1000. And again...he is doing much the same. </p>
<p>The reality is that he just didn't have the time or the inclination to spend a lot of time with students who were not in his major because they simply didn't share his interests and weren't spending their time doing the things he wanted to do.</p>
<p>When my son was at conservatory, he found the intellectual interests of the other musicians to be fairly limited, and the conversational topics were not invigorating, most of the other students either narrowly focused in the practice room or otherwise "playing". At his current university, many of his friends are musicians, but they are more interesting, at least from his experiences.</p>
<p>My husband had an observation when he took our son out with a bunch of his Conservatory friends for dinner after one of their performances at school. Our two older sons had gone to school at Ivy League colleges, and the conversations with those groups of kids were always so delightful; they had thoughtful ideas and insights, and had read so much. The music school kids talk the same way on a very high level but about music. It's their language--it's what they do. I have been with engineers who talk engineering in a way that no one else can understand. I will never understand music on the level that my son does, and I love that he has peers to speak that language with him.</p>
<p>It's important to realize that PARENTS may not be the best source of reference when trying to assess the social scene of a college. </p>
<p>"Socializing" means different things for every person. One must differentiate between the actual scene with the 'perceived' social scene as seen by parents due to 'reports' from the beloved trusting angels that are their kids. It's no secret that kids will always lie about their social lives to their parents.</p>
<p>I have many friends who are attending/attended Juilliard, MSM, and NEC; and many of them are your typical party goers who spent their weekend nights at parties just as intense as your stereotypical frat house. This is especially true at NEC, where the beer-pong culture of such a large college city dominates the nightlife. The Boston that parents see during their scrutinizing judgmental Tuesday morning college visit trips in the sunny New England springtime, is a lot different than the Boston at 11 PM on a Friday night in October. I have a female friend studying jazz at NEC who has been "taken in" by the police no less than 4 different times for hosting disruptive house parties and serving drinks to underaged.</p>
<p>With the close-knit types of atmospheres that conservatories are, the people who attend loud parties are actually much more demographically and socially diverse than you would find in a state school frat house. Yes, even those seemingly mute Koreans are often regular guests (and even hosts!) as well. The amount of blanket judgement and amount of passing off stereotypes as fact that occurs on this forum is quite alarming. I've especially noticed an excessive amount of anti-conservatory sentiment, sometimes justified but sometimes also the result of double standards and cloudy judgement.</p>
<p>Ultimately the student him/herself must decide on the type of environment he or she needs. As parents, I understand that they are interested, but parents must understand also that they are perhaps not the most qualified to judge. I love fiddlestix's suggestion - when visiting schools (not just conservatories but any of your schools) leave your child alone so he can candidly discuss social issues with the students there.</p>
<p>PS - As for the intellectual interests mentioned in the preceding posts, I can't say that's been my experience. I've found conservatory students perfectly capable of carrying on conversations about politics, literature, current events, etc. In fact, sometimes I am convinced that "intellectual conversations" occur more in conservatories than they do at "normal" schools. Conservatory students tend to be more "nerdier", and sometimes more intellectually snobbier. They tend to be more Bohemian in nature, more likely to reject mainstream pop culture, but they also tend to have a type of arrogance, a (sometimes unhealthy) sense of entitlement due to the high-culture nature of their field of study. There certainly doesn't exist that baggy-clothing, backwards-baseball-cap, walk-with-swagger culture.</p>
<p>Lorelei --I in no way intended to single out the Asians. My son has close musical friends who are Asian American and loves them dearly. I was referring only to those who don't come to college in the US speaking English. I do think the music schools should make a point of helping them to learn English better and faster through some kind of social integration problem so that they are not essentially ghettoized (SP?) by their language. They are great people and musicians with a lot to offer.</p>
<p>Stephmin - my son is having a blast a school. He is at a large University, but all his friends are musicians and he isn't much interested in anyone else so he might as well be at a stand-alone conservatory. He chose IU over a stand-alone only for the teacher. I agree with you that I think the experience is more or less the same either way UNLESS you want to pursue a second, academic degree. Music is so intense that it is probably hard to relate to non-musicians a lot of the time if only because they don't understand your schedule and aren't in sync with it.</p>
<p>All of this speaks--again-to those parents with 9-11 graders--to the help a summer program can be to your child. S2 did a summer program he LOVED, and felt as though he really had finally met "his people," but had to think long and hard about the stand alone conservatory vs. music school within a larger university. Without that experience, he would not have actually been on a conservatory campus until auditions. If you're able to give your kids a Summer experience, I highly recommend it!</p>
<p>For the record, Stephmin, I think conservatories are essential for undergraduate string players, recommended for keyboard, optional for wind instrumentalists, and a very bad idea for singers. </p>
<p>As a parent of a singer and a string player, and as a professional musician myself, knowing how rough the field of performance is as a game plan for a career, I have a bias toward an education which leaves one with options, the road paved in several directions. Starting over or finding a plan B after four expensive years at conservatory, with a high pile of debts likely, is not what one wishes for others. Success is great, but a career in the arts is a crap shoot, regardless of the level of talent. </p>
<p>stringfollies, I did not think you expressed any bias, though it is true that many or the colonies of international musicians at the east coast conservatories are Asians. The cliquishness of any culture can narrow options for insiders and outsiders.</p>
<p>This discussion came up in the car with my Peabody Conservatory-student daughter as we were on our way to pick up my University of Wisconsin-Madison-student son just before Christmas.</p>
<p>We were approaching the UW campus, and I asked my daughter if she regretted choosing the conservatory from the standpoint of social life. She hesitated a moment, then said, "It would have been a lot more fun to be in Madison for Halloween. There aren't many places for freshmen and sophomores to go at Peabody, and it would have been a blast to be on State Street.</p>
<p>"But," she continued, "I'm making really great friends at school and, although I'm missing out on some of the rah-rah UW stuff, I'm glad I decided to go there."</p>
<p>I've been listening to her over break, and she's started many conversations with "My friend James" or "My friend Ally" in reference to good experiences at the conservatory. She's formed some really close friendships there, and I believe that the camaraderie, small school atmosphere and close working/studying relationships have forged those bonds. She says that the social life is sometimes smothered, but it's not a deal-breaker.</p>
<p>I hestiated to chime in, as so many of the previous posters have eloquently (as usual) stated most of the considerations any student must ponder when making the stand-alone conservatory/conservatory within a school/LAC/big U choice. Just thought I'd add my two cents since I've been observing my daughter's own thinking on the topic.</p>
<p>As a quick last point, I'll note that my daughter's roommate has made some handy connections over at some of the frats at Hopkins and has a very active, more traditional big college social life. If you're looking for it, you can find it probably in any school setting.</p>
<p>Stephmin--I loved your post about the party scene at conservatories. Kids are kids--who are we kidding? My son is experiencing no loneliness or lack of fun as a music student; he is still an average 19-year-old, and the horror of dorms at NEC sends most kids out to apartments after freshman year, where it is much easier to throw a party. Is it more of a challenge for musicians to stay on top of their work than for a liberal arts major at another school? One thing I never saw discussed here is the attrition rate for conservatory students.</p>
<p>To add something to the discussion about international students and the issue of language..I was an ESOL teacher at every level from grade school to graduate students, and taught classes at a large university which has a conservatory "attached" to it. Of course, you all know that incoming students are required to take the TOEFL exam- Test of English as a Foreign Language, but that being said, other variables really impact the students progress in the acqusition of English.The scores required on the TOEFL are not sufficiently high as to ensure that the student is able to really reap the most benefit from a program of study in the US. Many international students choose to "isolate" themselves from the English speaking population, living and socializing with others who share their language- they even have "movie nights", where someone brings in films in their home language, so English is not needed even as a translation tool.Graduate students are often married and their spouses accompany them to the US so they shop in stores that offer foods from "home" and assimilate into local cultural groups. Some teachers/mentors insist that their students attend special ESOL classes, but it has been my sad observation that a goodly number of those students make it to the first class so that they show up on the registry roles and then never return-but since the English classes are not a mandatory part of the curriculum, the only consequence of non-attendance is lack of needed English acquisition. Look at the requirements for colleges/conservatories in non-English speaking countries- is there an "allowance" made for students who are not fluent in the language? I think you'll find that the answer is "no". I really wish that there could be a useful resolution to this "problem", especially for the music students. As has been said before here, music is truly a language unto itself and it can serve to bring people together- and students can learn from each other as well as from their teachers. So much is lost when language acts as a barrier rather than a bridge...</p>
<p>Juggling mom...sounds to me like your son would fit in beautifully at Oberlin!! You just described alot of my sons friends, lol. He's a senior in vp and has loved it there! Plenty of social opportunities and tons and tons and tons of music! He's home on break and is still singing and memorizing or whatever it is he does..lol..</p>