Some perspective (and help), please!!

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>When it comes to auditions and application to music schools, how does one begin to decide the likelihood of a match or chance of acceptance?</p>

<p>For "regular" college admissions, one can compare the student's stats to the school's stats, and make a reasonable list that way.</p>

<p>For music schools, what is the barometer? How does one begin to make a reasonable list of schools that are possible? How can a student weigh his chances? Is acceptance ALL in the audition, or do excellent grades and huge involvement in every music activity matter too? </p>

<p>It seems like there are a huge number of extremely talented musicians, so how to weigh your own kid's talent in relation to those? By genre...instrument????</p>

<p>Also, do you need to visit and meet with prospective teachers for every potential school? Is the recorded CD a real no-no, unless it is not a top choice?</p>

<p>Finally, is there a way of finding out the acceptance rates and stats of music schools?</p>

<p>Sorry for so many questions. I never knew this process would feel so daunting! Thanks in advance for responses!</p>

2

<p>Lots and lots of questions. Maybe I can help with a few brief comments. You will need to provide more detailed information if you want detailed responses. </p>

<p>The top conservatories (Curtis, Juilliard, Eastman, MSM, etc) are very selective. For some instruments, acceptance rates can be under 10%. Even for less common instruments, the quality of the applicant pool is high and acceptance rates are below 30%. Acceptance is based almost entirely on musical ability. The evaluation will include an audition (clearly very important), ear and theory tests and possibily an interview. Schools may attempt to evaluate prior training and potential in addition to current ability demonstrated during the audition.</p>

<p>Unless you have extensive training and knowledge of music, you as a parent will not be able to assess your child's ability. You child's music teacher is an important resource. This assumes that he/she is very knowledgeable about music training. The kids who have the training to be accepted at top conservatories will most often have received input from a variety of sources. This would include other students and faculty for music camps, master classes, competitions, etc. If your child has not had these opportunities, they may not have received the training necessary for admission. </p>

<p>The music community is pretty small. There are huge numbers of parents who are extremely proud of their talented kids. There are NOT huge numbers of extremely talented musicians. The same kids will be at the auditions for conservatories at least within a geographical area.</p>

<p>The top 8-10 conservatories are very competitive. In addition only the most dedicated musicians are likely to fit the environment. Many talented musicians do not want the limitations of a conservatory, especially at the undergraduate level. Admissions are much different outside of the conservatory environment. There are numerous opportunities at universities and colleges with strong music programs. It can take a lot of research to find the best opportunities which fit. This is a great forum to bring up the specifics and ask for input.</p>

3

<p>You ask questions that most of the parents here have asked at one time or another. I think it can be very difficult to gauge your child's talent level and the level of school s/he should be applying to. This is where it helps to have outside information. My own son played several times for professors at our local university and I asked them to give me an honest evaluation of his potential for high level conservatory. </p>

<p>Another way to get input is for you child to enter competitions. Winning is not necessarily to objective but seeing how far you get in the process can give you another piece of the puzzle. For example, regularly finishing in the finals of concerto competitions tells you the student is pretty advanced and can compete well against peers. If your child doesn't play an instrument with much concerto music written for it such as bass, tuba, bassoon or sax, this is much more difficult.</p>

<p>A third way to gauge talent and ability is to participate in high level summer programs. These programs usually require an audition to get into. Once there, the student can begin to compare him or herself to the other musicians as well as receive feedback from the teachers at the program about their prospects for college level auditions. </p>

<p>For acceptance to most music schools, it is the audition that matters the most. A kid who has tons of music involvement but doesn't do well on the audition is not likely to get in. Sometimes students are admitted who are not very skilled if they have not had any access to quality teaching, have not played for very long but show a large amount of potential. I think the lower level programs are more willing to take a risk on a student such as this than a major conservatory. </p>

<p>Is is necessary to meet with teachers from every potential school? Not necessarily, but I would recommend meeting with as many as you can. My son did his first visit with a conservatory level teacher in the spring of his freshman year. He also did a couple of visits in sophmore year, and most occurred during his junior year, but we were able to spread them out. Kids can also get exposure to teachers with careful selection of summer programs. These programs often have college level teachers come in for a few days to work with students and if a student plans ahead, they can often schedule a lesson with the visiting teacher.</p>

<p>Competition levels does vary by instrument. The most competitve are violin, piano, flute and soprano. That doesn't mean that trombone or viola are not competitive as well, only that there will likely be fewer students competing for spots. With some digging you might be able to get from a music school or conservatory how many students audition, how many are accepted and how many attend, but the information is not all that helpful because they will not break it down for you by instrument. Every instrument has its "hot" teachers who will get a large number of students trying to get into the studio regardless of what is happening in the rest of the school. </p>

<p>Essentially, applying to music school is more akin to applying to graduate school than undergraduate school. Students need to find a teacher they want to work with and be able to demonstrate that they are at the level needed for that teacher. Again, getting feedback from objective sources whenever possible will help you assess where your child is at in regard to talent and ability.</p>

4

<p>There have been similar questions raised about this and I would suggest a search of CC if you haven't done so already. Gauging talent is indeed difficult. Some of the very broad suggestions have included the child's experience in local and state competitions. For example, are they winners of individual performance competitions such as All-State festival or NATS (for vocal performance)? Have they won auditioned spots in selective school ensembles?</p>

<p>Even the strong non-conservatory colleges and universities are looking for students who are capable of performing at a high level. Music theory tests, sightreading (or sightsinging) and interviews are routine at auditions at most strong music programs. </p>

<p>The competition for spots varies quite a bit by instrument. For soprano voice, it is not unusual for 200 students to audition for 20 spots. This is true for strong vocal performance programs in general. At major conservatories, this could easily double in terms of odds of entry. Competition for music scholarships in performance is even more stiff.</p>

<p>As edad noted, the student's private teacher is probably the best judge of talent. Almost all of the schools to which D applied asked for recommendations from the private teacher (rather than the high school music director). If you're not from the music performance world, it's quite a roller coaster. I know I've learned a tremendous amount over the past 2 years. The CC board has probably been the single most important resource.</p>

<p>Finally, talk to your child and begin to get a sense of what type of education they want -- a conservatory-only? A liberal arts education plus a strong music program? A big school? A small school? There are good options in music across the board. Then you can start looking at matches with teachers. That match is one of the most important in the decision for music performance. </p>

<p>There is a wealth of knowledge on this forum -- best of luck. I'll be finished with my journey soon as May 1 is right around the corner!</p>

5

<p>[Edit: at the time I wrote this, there were no responses! By the time I posted, it is this far down on the page. I knew people would come through!]</p>

<p>I'll take a stab at beginning to answer. For brevity's sake, I'm going to leave out the "I think"s and the "In my opinion"s -- but they are there.</p>

<p>There are lots of folks here in this corner of CC who have just been waiting for some good questions, so I expect you'll hear from a few. :)</p>

<h1>1) Reach-Match-Safety</h1>

<p>You didn't ask about "safety" but -- a true safety is a school that has a non-audition music major, where your stats are high. If all else fails (literally) it can be a place where you cool your heels, practice, and get up the nerve to apply next year as a transfer. Chosing a safety near a city with a professional orchestra can help make sure you can find a decent teacher in the interval.</p>

<p>At the other extreme will be the music conservatories, where no one is guaranteed anything.</p>

<p>Yes, instrument matters. My S is at Juilliard -- the year he applied, they took 4 horns - his instrument - nearly a third of the entire department, and very unusual. The other schools he applied to each took only 2 horns -- so Juilliard was the LEAST selective of his schools that year. Had we known this at the time, we would have been much more nervous. </p>

<p>The best way to find a match for music majors is pretty much the same way as any other -- find a school where you are better than 50-75% of the applicants. Again, it's instrument-based. And you need to talk to people who are familiar with both you (or whoever's applying) and the school. When my son was looking for schools, he took advantage of every opportunity -- at camps, All State, Youth Orchestra, Festivals -- to ask teachers what schools they thought he should look at. Almost always, teachers will know teachers and programs at other schools, and can say, "You should get a lesson with so-and-so. I think you'd like him/her." This helped him not only to learn about schools, but to learn about teachers within the schools.</p>

<p>Having lessons at the school, though not required (my S didn't have one at Juilliard), can help you further get an impression of whether it's a match. My S is talented, but when he had a lesson at NEC, the teacher didn't seem to think he was good. Might be the teacher's way; just not very positive. But my S felt that his chances at that school would be lower than at other schools he liked better, so he crossed it off.</p>

<p>On the other hand, at another school the teacher kept telling him that my S reminded him so much of himself. We took that as a good sign, and he was indeed admitted. </p>

<h1>2) Making a list</h1>

<p>Make a HUGE list. Obviously, start with whatever kind of school or major you want - conservatory or university. BM Performance or BA Music Ed (or whatever). </p>

<p>Grades matter at some schools more than others, so if it's a concern, make sure the school is a fit that way. UMich and Cincinnati both have great music schools. UMich's academic standards, though, are much higher. Rice requires SAT IIs. On the other hand, Juilliard doesn't require, and doesn't look at, SATs at all. However, they do seem to care that the applicant is literate. My S didn't need any recs from music teachers there - only one from a language arts teacher!</p>

<p>At most schools that offer performance degrees, audition matters very much. (Grades can keep you out, but not get you in.) So it is important to find schools that fit ability wise. (It is also important to prepare thoroughly, and a little luck doesn't hurt either. But that's a whole 'nother thread. Ask BassDAd.)</p>

<p>Start showing your list to people, and taking note of comments. Our college spreadsheets (I'm on child #3 now) have always included a column for subjective comments from others. The comments were weighted based on who made them, and based on how important it was to us. My S wanted a good orchestra, so those comments were especially noted, for example. </p>

<p>Most instrument groups have websites and message boards. Browse those sites and find out what people are saying about schools for that instrument.</p>

<p>Take a look at your fellow musicians in HS band, orchestra, chorus, Youth Orchestra, whatever. How do you rate against them? Where are they going to school? If you're 9th chair, second violin, and the concert master and assistant both got rejected from a certain school, it might be fair to consider that school a reach (at minimum). Being realistic about your own abilities is important. On the other hand, if many students who don't seem as "good" are going to the local state U, you might consider that a safer school. Any audition school, though, can't really be considered a safety.</p>

<h1>3) Meeting with teachers (also addressed in #1)</h1>

<p>Some reasons why it's a good idea:
-Meeting with teachers lets the teacher hear you an additional time besides the single, short audition. Buys forgiveness for an off note or two.
-Lets teacher put a name with a face when reading applications.
-Get an idea if the teacher likes you. Listen hard to hear if they are actually encouraging you to apply, or just being polite.
-Get an idea if you like the teacher. Could you stand him/her for the next 4 years?
-Get insider info on audition ("Don't play Strauss 2. That's a pro piece. I hate it when students play it.") You can even ASK for info --At one school, S mentioned that the website was somewhat vague on audition rep, and the teacher said that was because they really just wanted to hear what the student had been working on, and was feeling good about. S took away from that that he needed to play something that he "owned" - as opposed to something that was merely technical. </p>

<p>But, my S did NOT have a meeting with the teacher at 2 of the schools he applied to, including the one he now attends. He did have plenty of people telling him he would do well with this particular teacher, and therefore S requested him on his application (and is happy).</p>

<h1>4) In lieu of live audition?</h1>

<p>Whenever possible, audition live and in person at the school. Give them the chance to ask you to change something, or do something over, or something different. To evaluate your stage presence. To talk to you and get to know you. To put a face to a name. The advantages are many.</p>

<p>If you have schools that you are less interested in, and it is at all possible time-wise and budget-wise, schedule these live auditions earlier in the game. They then become "practice" auditions for the more desired schools.</p>

<p>CDs are great to send to your non-audition safety. They might get you some merit money, or a tip toward admission.</p>

<p>If you absolutely have to audition by CD, make sure it is excellent quality. </p>

<h1>5) Admit rates</h1>

<p>Schools generally have their admit rates on their websites. But I haven't seen many broken down by instrument, so it's not too helpful except for establishing broad categories.</p>

<p>Okay, somebody else's turn. :)</p>

6

<p>WoW! You guys are just great! Thanks so much! What a wealth of information!</p>

<p>A little more info....</p>

<p>DS has exceptional natural musicality and perfect pitch. His classical piano teachers have all felt he was unusually talented, but he doesn't put in the practice time to be all that he could be as a solo pianist, although he does practice about an hour a day, and has won some competitions. He is not interested in the competition route at all any longer. He is certain that he doesn't want to major in piano performance (although perhaps minor, and certainly continue to do accompaniment, which he enjoys enormously and which musical directors are impressed by, since he sight reads and follows directors' quick instructions extremely well).</p>

<p>He is more interested in studying jazz and classical percussion, and is equally talented on this (according to his band directors and teachers). So, I imagine jazz percussion is a bit different to talk about then cello or bass...but again, I don't know the score here at all, and all of you do.</p>

<p>He plays jazz, band and orchestra percussion at a very high level now (his school is well ranked, wins nationwide and even a worldwide competition or two!)and has heard too often of kids who end up at very fine LAC where the music is not even advanced beyond his high school. So, he wants literally the best program he can (he dreams Eastman, of course, but I have no idea how realisitc that is), and wants to study music only (perhaps recording arts too, but not dual major in LA). </p>

<p>Despite being an excellent student, he really wants to spend the 75% of his time on music, not on other liberal arts studies. So, he is the kind of kid who needs a music school, within a bigger university.</p>

<p>We know about UMich, Eastman, Peabody and Oberlin, as obviously very strong schools with strong programs. He knows people who have gone to each. But what are safeties where the level of play will continue to be high? We are on the east coast.</p>

<p>Thanks again. I really appreciate all the help. I probably will be posting a lot of questions as we get underway here (DS is still a Soph). What a great forum for the novices (like me!)!</p>

7

<p>It is extremely hard to evaluate your own child's musical abilities, even if you are a musician yourself. It is almost impossible to look at your son or daughter the way they will be scrutinized in their college auditions. As others have pointed out, you need outside opinions and results from other competitive auditions.</p>

<p>Not all outside opinions are reliable, however. Your child's private teacher's opinion might not be very valuable if they are out of touch with the level of talent and potential required for college admissions these days. You want the opinions of professionals who either hear college auditions themselves or whose students have successfully auditioned at top programs within the past few years. If you are not already in contact with someone like that, places to look include the more competitive summer programs, good independent youth ensembles, performers in professional symphony orchestras and teachers at colleges with good music programs.</p>

<p>Another reality check is to look at the audition repertoire at various schools. If they are calling for fairly difficult concertos with cadenzas, and your child is struggling with far easier material, that tells you something. If your child sightreads with ease far more challenging music than the suggested audition pieces, that tells you something else.</p>

<p>The best barometer of all is the opinion of the people who will actually be making the decisions at the colleges you are interested in. Find out who they are and look for opportunities to hear them play and to play for them. Summer camps and masterclasses are good ways to do this. If possible, take some private lessons with them and ask them whether they think you are ready to audition for their college studios.</p>

<p>While most schools accept kids all the time from recorded auditions, it is an excellent idea to audition live at your top choices. Teachers are human. They not only look for a level of readiness and potential, but they are also looking for individuals who will work well with them and who are a good match for the needs of their studio and the school in general. A lot of that is impossible to evaluate from a recording. Also, teachers are aware of what can be done with modern digital audio editing techniques and may well hold a recorded audition to a higher standard than a live one.</p>

<p>It is hard to find out the raw numbers on acceptance rates, but those numbers are not all that valuable. Both the number and quality of applicants can vary from year to year, as well as the number of openings in a particular program. Knowing the number of openings in the year you are auditioning can be valuable information, and schools are usually willing to give you an approximate idea if you call and ask.</p>

8

<p>Those of us who have been through the auditions and worries with our kids certainly understand your concerns. Even very strong musicians have reason for concern because there is always the possibility of exceptionally strong applicants and a very limited number of openings.</p>

<p>Sanity requires some safeties. You might consider Berklee, SUNY Potsdam (Crane), and Ithaca College. I believe all offer jazz performance. Definitely keep Peabody on the list -- the number of applicants has been a lot less than for the NE conservatories.</p>

9

<p>As an applicant, I've gone through (at least a greater part) of the audition process, now anxiously waiting for results...</p>

<p>I don't know I can add much to the parents' extensive comments, but there is one mistake I made that cost me so much - I want to share it, hoping that the same thing will not happen to anyone else again.</p>

<p>Serious thoughts about applying to conservatories had to occurred to me until the end of my junior year, so I'm definitely a little late. But I started woking on my audition repertoire in late summer, which actually should give me plenty of time to prepare. </p>

<p>The real problem came when I needed send out applications. I knew that two of the schools I'm applying to ask for prescreening tape, but I had no idea about how selective the prescreening process is - even if I had known about it, it sill would be too late. So I sent out not-too-perfect prescreening tapes, containing my not-well-prepared-yet audition repertoire and some older recordings that are... not good. </p>

<p>January came, and I was rejected outright - without even an audtion - from Eastman and Juilliard. I was quite despondent, and was even doubting my ability... to make the story short, I still auditioned at the other schools, and hopefully I did well :) At early March, I arranged to meet with the professor I wanted to study with at Eastman. I sent him a live recording of one of my audition repertoire recitals and played for him a little bit. I think he likes my playing, since he's willing to take me into his studio if I go to U of Rochester even though I did not get into Eastman. Anyway, at least it convinces me that I am not those who deserve to be screened out by the prescreening process. </p>

<p>So the moral of the story: if you are like me who do not have a habit of recording my own playings, do remember to record, for example, the recitals, etc. And do make sure that your recordings are of good quality. I don't know much about the other instruments, but for piano, it takes a LONG time to learn and practice and think about a piece to make a good performance (especially the larger pieces), and if you don't record yourself when your performance was the best, the good performance is lost because it also takes quite a bit of time to learn it back. In my situation, I have almost no good recording at hand when I need to send out precreening tapes, and I could not learn the old pieces back at such a short time, and my audition repertoire was not ready at that time - so everything did not go well. </p>

<p>It's very important to keep your best performances in good quality recordings for purposes like prescreening tapes, audition tapes, scholarships, etc. Had I known this, I would at least have get a chance to audition...</p>

10

<p>thzxcyl - thank you for sharing your personal experience regarding prescreening recordings. You can't imagine how much you may be helping future conservatory applicants. I hope things work out for you wherever you end up attending. </p>

<p>-Allmusic- Others have contributed so much great information the only thing I have to add is that your son may want to check out Lawrence Conservatory as a potential safety. <a href="http://www.lawrence.edu/conservatory/jazz/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.lawrence.edu/conservatory/jazz/&lt;/a>
Fred Sturm, the director of Jazz Studies and Improvizational Music at Lawrence runs an excellent program. He was chair of the Jazz Studies department at Eastman from 1991-2002. Other safeties in the midwest would be Northern Illinois University and Depaul.</p>

11

<p>Allmusic:</p>

<p>You might want your son to consider the Eastman Summer Jazz program. This is from the description:
"Highly recommended for students planning to audition for the Eastman Bachelor of Music degree program in Jazz Studies. " I know several kids who got into the jazz program after doing that program (most did it more than one summer) and they were part of the Eastman Community Essentially Ellington Jazz Band.</p>

<p>Here's the link, scroll down to Summer Jazz Studies:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.esm.rochester.edu/summer/?i=highschool#Summer%20Jazz%20Studies%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.esm.rochester.edu/summer/?i=highschool#Summer%20Jazz%20Studies&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The jazz program is relatively new at Eastman. It is wonderful - very vibrant and exciting. Rochester is a surprisingly great jazz town. Good luck.</p>

12

<p>At the time my daughter went through the application and admission process, I didn't know what I know now about college and music school admissions. It never crossed my mind that she might have trouble getting into schools. Since she went to Interlochen for the last two years of high school, she had great resources. She needed a strong academic environment, so that was a consideration, too. I guess BU was considered a safety, since she did her audition at Tanglewood in the summer and was very confident about admission. Indiana and BU were academic safeties. She didn't think her Oberlin audition went well (they came to Interlochen) but she got in. She didn't apply to any non-audition music programs. I guess her voice teacher at Interlochen knew what he was doing in suggesting teachers and music schools, because she got in everywhere she applied except Julliard. Interlochen makes it clear to the kids that Julliard and Curtis are tremendous reaches for EVERYONE. She was an ARTS finalist, which she thinks was a big help.</p>

13

<p>MSM also has a great jazz program.</p>

14

<p>Weenie, thanks for the recommendation about Eastman summer jazz. DS plans to do that next summer; he already is committed to a different three week jazz program this summer. </p>

<p>Even better news that it is recommended for kids planning to audition for Eastman BM in Jazz Studies. Didn't know that, I appreciate that head's up and so will he (definitely).</p>

15

<p>Was looking for something else online today, and found this comment by John Ericson (horn player). He was judging horn audition tapes sent in for Brevard Summer Camp, but the comments are worth noting for any CD audition:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Don't give a dull performance of your solo work. Sound like a soloist! The auditions for Brevard are a mixture of taped live auditions and recorded auditions made by applicants. Many auditions open with a solo work such as Strauss 1 or Mozart 2 or 4, which are good choices, but please don't be dull and bland. With the live auditions I suspect what happened is some applicants fell back into "default mode" and did not play their best. Auditions recorded by the applicants themselves were more puzzling to me though, as often the solo would be dull but immediately followed by well performed excerpts. In those cases I suspect that they had learned the solo long ago, probably in high school, and had never really worked on it again with their major teacher to bring it to a higher, more musically advanced level. </p>

<p>A taped audition needs to be perfect. I have to assume that an audition CD you submit for consideration is really the best that you can play, so if you are missing many notes, miss rhythms, or are out of tune I have to rate down the tape pretty hard in those areas. I can be more forgiving in a live audition.</p>

<p>Put the best thing first. If you are making an audition CD, be sure that what you put first is great. If you are playing a live audition and they let you chose what you want to start with, be sure the selection you choose sounds great. If in doubt what to start with, consult with your teacher as to what would be the best starting work for you. While big, difficult works are nice, quality is more important than what exactly you chose to play.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>These quotes are taken from his blog at ASU, and he has a lot of good general tips, and ones more specific to horn (or other brass). CC doesn't allow blog links, so you'll have to Google for it.</p>

16

<p>Competitions are important so that your son is used to playing in front of a small group of individuals that he knows are judging him. Some students freeze up and don't do their best. We saw this when taking our vocalist daughter to auditions. Students came out sweating and flushed. She walked out cool as a cucumber - she had been doing two to three competitions a year - many with college professors as judges. She was used to being asked to sing a passage over; which song to sing first; strange comments from judges, etc.</p>

<p>He needs to play songs he loves - so his passion comes through. Don't pick songs to impress the judges. They want students to do well and they know what repretoire is appropriate. It's better to play a song you love well - rather than reach and play badly.</p>

<p>Another reason competitions are useful is you receive feedback from other than the music teacher. It's nice to have the music teacher's opinion verified by independent judges who have no idea who your son is. Most competitions use numbers instead of names and never mention the teacher or high school's name so that the judge is not influenced by the reputation of the teacher or the school.</p>