<p>Well, what I originally said concerning gay marriage still stands:</p>
<p>MANY things in society today aren't natural. I'd go as far as saying most. To an extent it does depend on your definition of 'natural', but for the sake of the argument, let's say that natural means 'originally from Earth/widely accepted as nature's way'. Think of all the things you have, and the practices that take place in society that aren't natural. So many of these things aren't protested against at all. Why would gay marriage be the only "un-natural" practice that is protested against on such a high level? I sense prejudice.</p>
<p>Yeah, I did read your OP. And you know what? That subject has been discussed ad nauseum on this board. If you don't know much about the Republican Party platform, why don't you ask the people who agree with the ideas of that party instead of a partisan forum? (Let's face it, Republicans on this board are a dime and a dozen). But then again, when you say that some ideas of a particular party are "racist", you aren't going to get a favorable response from those who support the party.</p>
<p>"racist"? Hmm, that word has been slaughtered to the point where it doesn't have a meaning anymore.</p>
<p>Since I'm a nice conservative girl I'll answer your questions:</p>
<p>1) I don't know who you were listening to but whoever said that is not representative of the entire Republican Party, or its followers. Thanks for the stereotype buddy. That shows you know absolutely nothing about the world of politics. I don't feel any less Republican for not agreeing with Sean Hannity or whoever.</p>
<p>2) I'm not going to support someone who comes to Detroit and praises <em>foreign</em> automakers. Yes, he did that, and it's a huge insult to my state. Our state is suffering and that just adds insult to injury.</p>
<p>3) My views on gay marriage is probably a little different than the party's ideals on marriage.</p>
<p>You must not know much about politics because you don't have to support every idea of the Republican Party or Democratic to be a Republican or Democrat. I highly suggest you learn more about Zell Miller. Zell Miller was a Democrat, yet he disagreed with the top Democrats in his party. That's why I said I'm a conservative (independant conservative). I make my own choices instead of supporting everything that has an (R) next to it. However, most of my beliefs are conservative, rather than liberal.</p>
<p>Since I ran out of time to edit my post, I just wanted to say this:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Obama appears younger than he really is. im not sure about this, but my theory is that republicans (as well as others) claim that obama is inexperienced only to mask the real reason they won't vote for him--his race.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You just called all Republicans racist. So you just contradicted yourself in your PM to me and your OP saying you weren't trying to attack anyone. </p>
<p>Stop playing the race card. That's the only comeback you have for someone not supporting Obama? Race? Whenever a typical Democrat (not saying you are, but sure as heck sounds like it) is being questioned about something, they all of a sudden mention race. You know why? It's because they don't have a solid argument to back them up. If you want me to take your post seriously, stick to the issues. I also find it funny how people like you attack the party for being racist, and yet, you are intolerant of other people's different viewpoints. </p>
<p>Heaven help this country if you are planning on voting. Grow up a little, watch something other than The Colbert Report and The Daily Show (like Senate floor meetings on CSPAN) and come back here when you're ready to pose a credible argument. Don't worry, I'll still be here. :) I don't mind debating politics with people, as long as they are truly informed and not a mouthpiece for a particular party, family member, etc. I don't like Kool-aid drinkers.</p>
<p>re #1: Currently US immigration policy makes it a requirement for someone to be able to speak and write english before becoming a citizen. Being literate in english is also critical for the public schools. I find it irresponsible to put the financial burden on taxpayers to educate the children of illegal immigrants in ESL programs. We can't and shouldn't legislate what language people speak at home but to me this is a financial issue, not a racial one.</p>
<p>re #2: Compare Obama to the other candidates and you will see that he is relatively inexperienced. Also, in a recent CNN/Gallup poll, Obama had less than 50% of the black vote. Are the African-Americans racist because he's biracial? I don't think so. I know it isn't a racial issue for me. He has also made some political errors that could be ascribed to inexperience, like essentially equating the remarks of Don Imus to the Virginia Tech shooting.</p>
<p>re #3: I do not believe gay marriage is strictly a Republican issue. Heck, Obama has said that he opposes gay marriage in favor of civil unions. I believe in legal equality for gay couples but I also believe that marriage, in the modern sense, is a religious service and should be at the discretion of the church. The farther apart we keep religion and government, the better.</p>
<p>if you take that quote out of context, smirfgirl, it sounds like i'm calling all republicans racist. however, that is not the case. let me clarify the way i prefaced my OP once more, for the hard of hearing:</p>
<p>"some republican planks just have a subtle, underlying racist tone, it seems. i'm not trying to insult anybody, and I'M SURE NOT ALL REPUBLICANS AGREE WITH THESE IDEAS, im simply pointing out an observation"</p>
<p>anyways, it's interesting to hear people's opinions on these issues.</p>
<p>
[quote]
my theory is that republicans (as well as others) claim that obama is inexperienced only to mask the real reason they won't vote for him--his race.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Did you not say that the only reason why Republicans don't support Obama is because of the color of his skin? You didn't say "some Republicans". You said "Republicans", no? Therefore, you are calling all Republicans racist. </p>
<p>Then you turn around and say that not all Republicans agree with the ideas you've made in your post. Hmmm...then you say some of the ideas the party posseses has a hint of racism. </p>
<p>Why would you mention race as a factor? Why not his stance on foreign policy? Why not his stance on healthcare? Please elaborate on your theory of why Republicans don't support him, Professor Mj93? Enlighten me. Which is it, do Republicans not support Obama because of his race and their ideas have a subtle, racist tone; or do some Republicans not agree with that idea and some do not possess subtle racist tones in their ideologies?</p>
<p>Smell that? It's the stench of hypocrisy. Perhaps you should have your hearing checked. </p>
<p>You're one of those CCer's who have nothing else to do but bash the Republican Party. That's nice because I've got some news for you:</p>
<p>According to the May 10-13, 2007, Gallup Poll, 29% of Americans approve and 64% disapprove of the way Congress is handling its job. Congressional approval is down 4 percentage points since last month, and is 3 points lower than the 32% average measured during the first five months of the year.</p>
<p>"Then you turn around and say that not all Republicans agree with the ideas you've made in your post. Hmmm...then you say some of the ideas the party posseses has a hint of racism. "</p>
<p>no. i didn't turn around and say that not all republicans agree with those ideas. i PREFACED my post by saying that not all republicans will agree with the following ideas. i apologize if i didn't clarify well enough.</p>
<p>"Why not his stance on foreign policy? Why not his stance on healthcare?"</p>
<p>obviously other factors, like those, are involved. however, i believe it's true that the republican party attracts more racists/rednecks, while the democrat party attracts more minorities/feminists. <--those are generalizations and of course, they do not apply to all.</p>
<p>again, i am not bashing anyone. simply pointing out an observation.</p>
<p>OK so you say that gay marriage encourages adultery? </p>
<p>And that article talked about how homosexuality is a taboo. Christianity made it a taboo in the bible...it was prevalent in Ancient Greence, Ancient Rome, Ancient Japan. It wasn't a taboo then. One of the reasons the Bible made it a taboo was because the populations were in danger of not expanding enough. Well that's not exactly a problem now...</p>
<p>Also that is COMPLETE bs about divorce rates. They have substantially fallen. So if he uses that argument to say that them rising is because of homosexuality I'll turn it on him and say that is impossible because they have in fact fallen so homosexuality either doesn't effect them or infact has a positive effect on them. Well which is it? Are they connected or not? Are they only connected when the argument works for you?</p>
<p>So if men are the ones that commit adultery why let them marry in the first place? Also why not make it illegal for swingers and open couples to marry? If men are the problem they shouldn't even be allowed to marry in the first place because I guess you say they are prone to adultery no matter what.</p>
<p>Howwww will legalizing gay marriage sanction polygamy and polyamory...I really don't see that. </p>
<p>And why keep female couples from marriage then? I'm not saying they would allow themselves to be married while their male counterparts are prevented, but why not females?</p>
<p>That ENTIRE article is based on the theory that married gay couples will cheat on eachother. I highly disagree. You want to keep away gay marriage because you are afraid of adultery? I reallllly don't see a strong correlation! Do you really buy this? If he can lie about divorce I don't see why he can't be wrong here too.</p>
<p>-Does anyone have an ACTUALY reasons it shouldn't happen? Because saying that some couples will cheat on eachother is both misguided and not even a strong enough reason to begin with. One day all inequality will disappear and people like you will stop with your petty excuses. Gay-marriage will encourage adultery? Bull!</p>
<hr>
<p>And smurf girl I see you saying for people to stop generalzing about Republicans when I see you doing it about Democrats. Saying our only argument is race and that we have no others. Very weak...</p>
<p>and by the way some churches don't mind gay people. They allow them to hold positions within it. If we keep gays from marrying because it is against the religion than we should also keep athiests from marrying, people who have had pre-marital sex from marrying, ect...</p>
<p>ps I feel like people will take my argument about gay marriage lightly because of the other issues (racism) discussed. I would like to clear up wat the OP and I were getting at. </p>
<ol>
<li>Most racists and bigots who are affiliated with a party support the Republican ideals. I know that is controversial but it is generally true (ie the redneck version of the Republican).</li>
<li>Mannny Republicans aren't racist or bigots...just need to get that out there</li>
<li>We see that racists and bigots take shelter under the umbrella of Republican ideals and see this as saying something. Even though many Republicans like their ideals for different purposes, these ideals still work for racists. This is worrying. That is the point that we are making. If you are a Republican and are intelligent enough to be on forums such as this I am pretty sure you aren't the racists we are talking about so don't take offense. It is just that the Republican Party does seem to also work as a veil for the racists out there who do exist.</li>
</ol>
<p>Hopefully I didn't just make controversy because I was trying to put out our thoughts clearly. Just because you are a Republican you aren't a racist...obviously. Noone is saying that. BUT most people who ARE racists affiliate themselves with Republicans. It is just like the terrorist conundrum. The terrorists of the Middle East are...well...Middle Eastern and mostly Islamic. Does that mean all Middle Easterns and Muslims are terrorists. NO! NO NO NO. But will the next terrorist who is about to make a suicide strike on soldiers going to be Middle Eastern and Muslim...probably. That is the problem with this argument we are trying to make. Someone is going to get insulted no matter what even if it is true. It is like airports trying to point the finger at people of Middle Eastern background...saying that they could be terrorists. It is troubling because 99% of them are not. It is like us pointing the finger at the Republican party and saying they harbor some bigotry. Most of them don't. But some do. And that is the point.</p>
<p>Most Muslims are actually African Americans and most Muslims are from Indonesia, not the Middle East.</p>
<p>This is why students need to take courses about race, religions, and ethnicities in high school and in college. Most people are ill informed about these topics.</p>
<p>"This is why students need to take courses about race, religions, and ethnicities in high school and in college. Most people are ill informed about these topics." -- you're right :-)</p>
<p>True Mocha. Wow thanks smurf, but wat religion are the terrorists usually? Muslim aka using Jihad. Thanks smarty pants but I also know about Africa. I don't see how what you said makes me wrong in any way. They are usually 1. Middle Eastern 2. Muslim which is why there is sometimes a bad racist stereotype. But thanks anyway</p>
<p>Taken from my American Ethnicity textbook (8th edition) by Adalbero Aguire Jr. and Jonathan Turner pg. 256</p>
<p>"Of the total number of Muslims in the United States, African Americans ("Black Muslims") represent 42 percent of all Muslims, followed by persons from South Asia, Africa, Iran, Turkey, Southeast Asia, and European-origin whites."</p>
<p>"As is evident, the vast majority of Muslims in the United States, are not of Arab ancestry; indeed only a comparatively small percentage - 12.4 percent- of all Muslims in the United States have Arab origins."</p>
<p>Another stereotype you portray Figgy:</p>
<p>"A related stereotype is that all Arabs are committed to jihad by Islamic law, when in fact, the concept of jihad has several meanings not related to war..in fact Arab Americans have been among the minority populations in the United States who are <em>least</em> prone to violence."</p>
<p>Any more stereotypes you would like me to debunk for you?</p>
<p>Also, <em>smartypants</em> terrorism was not started by the Muslims. Read your history book over again. And before you start making condescending remarks towards me, use a credible source next time. If you have evidence to prove the authors wrong, I will be more than happy to direct you towards my professor who reviews this book before every new edition comes out. :)</p>
<p>"Of the total number of Muslims in the United States, African Americans ("Black Muslims") represent 42 percent of all Muslims, followed by persons from South Asia, Africa, Iran, Turkey, Southeast Asia, and European-origin whites."</p>
<p>Right. Ok, #1 IN THE UNITED STATES. In your earlier post you seemed to be talking about Muslims in general. Second of all, 42% is not "most"...it's not even a simple majority!</p>
<p>I think this conversation is about Muslims in general...the vast, vast, vast majority of Muslims are NOT located within the United States. Therefore your American Ethnicity textbook really doesn't help your argument. Same goes for the rest of your quotations. I agree that the majority of Muslims are not violent (and I think that's what Figgy is saying too lol) but unfortunately your textbook doesn't apply to a discussion of an ethnic group that makes up like 1/6 of the WORLD population. Before you start making condescending remarks next time, make sure your credible source actually applies to the subject at hand...ie "world" versus "American" ethnic studies. </p>
<p>And when did Figgy say that Muslims started terrorism? I would advise against your straw-man arguments.</p>
<p>No, I assumed that we were talking about Muslims in the US. </p>
<p>I'll break down the percentages for you since you do not think it's "most".</p>
<p>African American 42%
South Asian 24.4
Arab 12.4
African 5.2
Iranian 3.6
Turkish 2.4
Southeast Asian 2.0
Non-Arab White 1.6
Not determined 0.6</p>
<p>I think it's a simple majority, no?</p>
<p>I'm sorry, but before you start making condescending remarks towards me, be more specific instead of vague next time.</p>
<p>And please, don't tell me what to do honey. I don't take orders from you, nor will I ever take orders from you. Try living in Dearborn, Michigan and learn about Muslims instead of referring to the internet as the basis for your arguments.</p>
<p>What one republican believes does not equal what all republicans believe. Actually, Clinton signed the DOMA banning federal recognition of same-sex marriages, and he wasn't republican now was he?</p>
<p>lol smurf u obviously didn't read my post. My ENTIRE point for posting that was because most muslims AREN'T terrorists. As in when I say most racists are republicans I am not saying that most republicans are racist...which is wat some offended people must have thought.</p>
<p>I am talking about muslims in the world. Hence I said a suicide bomber killing a solder...which doesn't exactly happen in the US. So lets stop bickering about pointless things.</p>
<p>Kissmekate: No candidate can really openely support gay-marriage because they would get tossed out. Americans elect people who are religious...in a poll that asked whether Americans would elect a perfect president who was an athiest only 30 something percent of Americans said they would elect him. So that means that many of the people voting are religious. If someone hoping to stay in office violated some of their voters beliefs they would be screwed. They themselves are also religious too so... Anyway, slow change is the way to go. Hence Washington didn't abolish slavery...it wasn't until Lincoln, who only did it by coincidence, did it happen. You can't just suddenely do something that seems extreme to people. Slow change is the smart way to go...esp for a politician.</p>
<p>If anyone has a point against gay-marriage that isn't religious I would love to hear it. I'm a passionate debator and if I want to get better at it this is a great way to do it!</p>