Son missed CTY qualifying scores by a touch

Parent Cafe
1

<p>Hi everyone,</p>

<p>My son is in eigth grade and just got his SAT scores back. He scored a 550 verbal, 560 math, and 520 writing (essay - 8 though). The writing doesn't count for CTY, and he has missed the cutoff for the humanities programs by 10 points, and the math programs by 20 points.</p>

<p>He is very disappointed because he wants to be with his friends from baby CTY (which he did for two years) and also because the courses sound really good to him. (He did do CAA last year, but the course selection wasn't that good in his opinion.)</p>

<p>Anyway, does CTY ever make exceptions for such close scores? (I notice that the cutoffs got higher after 2003...he would have made the old ones.) Or, is there another gifted summer program that has <strong>lots</strong> of social opportunites, as well as lots of lively discussion, that any of you can recommend?</p>

<p>Thanks for any help,</p>

<p>Sharon</p>

2

<p>EPGY at Stanford though I think most of it is for high school students.</p>

3

<p>I'd like to know the answer to this too. My daughter qualified with her math score, allowing her to do a science course last summer. She absolutely loved it but wishes she could consider the humanities courses too. She missed the verbal cutoff by 10 points. I'm guessing the answer is no, a cutoff is a cutoff?</p>

4

<p>Onesharon:</p>

<p>Would it be possible to retake the SAT in January if your son missed by so little?</p>

<p>MomoFour:
Ask CTY. If your D already took a science course, it might be possible for her to take other courses (no inside info, just speculation!)</p>

5

<p>It seems to me that the simplest way to answer these questions is a direct call to CTY.</p>

6

<p>Hi and thanks everyone.</p>

<p>Marite, even though my son's first comment upon viewing his scores was "I'm taking it again next month!", I just don't know that I want him to have to do the entire test again so soon. (Plus, he might feel obligated to prepare for it in some way, and I am really against preparing for an SAT at age 13!)</p>

<p>I've put in a call to CTY, but as other CTY parents know, they are not that easy to reach by phone. I'll probably have better luck with an e-mail!</p>

<p>Thanks again,</p>

<p>Sharon</p>

7

<p>onesharon:</p>

<p>I understand your feeling completely. It really depends on whether your son knew the materials but made some silly errors or whether he genuinely did not know them; also, whether it was the first time he encountered the SAT format and thus was a bit flummoxed. If the latter, if he were to take it again, he would be more comfortable and would do much better than on the first sitting.</p>

8

<p>onesharon, my son took the sat for cty in 7th grade and did score below the recommended for math. He retook the SAT with no preparation (no prep both times) but he took the computerized test the next time which is a lot shorter and did very well next time. He said the first time, the paper test was way way too long for a 12 year old. Or at least for him. I was wondering if you could do the same..</p>

9

<p>onesharon, </p>

<p>If your son were to take the SAT again, his score could easily be 10 or more points higher (or lower). The measurement error of the test must be more than 10 points. You might ask CTY about this.</p>

<p>Another thing that I've been wondering about is whether the math qualifying scores might be adjusted (lowered) for the new SAT. It now includes more advanced material, 11th grade math vs 10th grade on the older version. This is not going to make a difference to a high school senior, but I would expect it to make a big difference to a middle school student. If CTY finds that the distribution of scores has shifted downward, then I assume that they'd adjust the thresholds. This is the first year that the new SAT is being used.</p>

10

<p>achat, What is the computerized version of the SAT? I haven't heard about that.</p>

<p>asharon, another thought: There is also the possibility of qualifying by taking the STB. If a child scores well enough on it, then the SAT qualifying scores are considerably lower.</p>

11

<p>Thanks again everyone!</p>

<p>Marite...I know...it's so hard to know, and what if he goes down 10 points instead of up?</p>

<p>NYMom...I think the STB just gets you into the math, right? I love your margin of error and new SAT thoughts and they certainly make a lot of sense.</p>

<p>Achat...I didn't think there was a computerized SAT, especially given the new writing section? Can you tell me more about that?</p>

<p>I was able to get through to CTY, and they said you need to write a letter asking for an exception to the cutoff. Having a very close score and attending CTY in the past will hopefully help, as well as the fact that this is indeed a new type of SAT. I think this is the route I will take rather than having him test again. I'll let you know what happens. I have a feeling that they are normally very strict with the cutoffs, but the interesting thing is that he makes the "pre-2003" cutoff. (Did they change the test in 2003 as well?)</p>

<p>Thanks again,</p>

<p>Sharon</p>

12

<p>Quite apart from the issue of the cut-offs, there is the issue of the enrollment priority for each course. Some courses fill in the first round of applications from returning students. If your child did baby CTY, at least your child is a returning student, but depending on what the desired course is, the course may fill up with people who have higher SAT scores. That is one very strategic reason to take the SAT again A.S.A.P. </p>

<p>These days my preference in summer programs are the programs with their own admission procedures, not strictly based on SAT scores. My son had a good experience at CTY Lancaster as an eleven-year-old, but an even better experience at MathPath the next summer.</p>

13

<p>onesharon,</p>

<p>Yes, the STB helps only for math programs. Asking for an exception seems reasonable in your son's case. </p>

<p>There is at least one similar program that I've heard of. A neighbor's son went to CTY (and loved it) and her daughter went to the Summer Institute for the Gifted. SIG is similar in that it involved 3 weeks on a college campus, and one qualifies for admission by teacher recommendation, I believe. One big difference is that instead of taking only one course, the students take 4 or 5 throughout the day, and some are nonacademic (e.g., fencing). This appealed to me, so I looked into it. The academic course offerings did not seem as interesting, though, and the program is significantly more expensive.</p>

14

<p>Thanks again NYMom. BTW, according to the College Board website, they consider the margin of error to be 30 points. This bodes well for him, I think. However, who knows how it works at when they are making the decison.</p>

<p>Thanks also for the SIG recommendation. More expensive is definitely now where we want to go...lol! In fact, the reason my son "fell into" CTY in the first place is because we couldn't really afford the high price of sleepaway camp, and this seemed like a good opportunity to spend time away from home with other kids. The class is just a bonus! (Although, he would actually prefer they spent less time in class, especially since it is only just one class. I guess that's the good thing about a SIG type program.)</p>

<p>Thanks so much again!</p>

<p>Sharon</p>

15

<p>Wow...just noticed some serious typos and I guess you can't edit on here? Anyway, the word "now" is supposed to be "not"...lol! And the other sentence is missing the word "CTY" but I'm sure you can figure that out.</p>

16

<p>My recommendation would be to buy him a book of practice tests and have him take a section every couple days until the exam, and then take a practice whole thing the day before the real one. </p>

<p>I know you're set on not having your child prepare for the SATs so early, but if you want him to make the qualifying bar then I don't much think doing it for one month will hurt. Think of it as sort of an academic sprint. I cannot emphasize how much simply being comfortable with the test makes a difference. The first time I took the SATs, without looking at any practice material, I got a 1370 (I was 15 I believe). I took the test a month later after buying the 10 Real SATs book of practice tests and walked out with a 1520.</p>

<p>Your son sounds like a bright kid, I'm sure he just needs to acclimate to the questions they ask and the four-hour test period.</p>

17

<p>I think there are significant differences between the old and new SATs for middle schoolers and CTY may well have to change their requirements. My daughter dropped 50 points on the new math, without the quantitative comparisons which she found easy to figure out. Without having taken geometry and algebra II, I think it may be a little harder for bright but not genius level kids to hit the currently required scores. I think her CR was 20 points lower than her old Verbal score. She had rocked the analogies and definitely missed them. The critical reading passages can require a more sophisticated level of analysis than was previously needed. This may not affect older high school kids as much as it does the middle school population. The other factor that I think is very significant is test length. My daughter was exhausted after taking the new SAT. This is unlike anything this age group has to face under ordinary circumstances.</p>

<p>The only reason I had her take the new version after qualifying on the old version was that I figured it gave her an opportunity to be exposed to the test without it counting on her permanent record with the CB as she was still an 8th grader. She scored a 7 on her essay which was definitely written with a younger voice, although gramatically fine, I think that cost her a bit. </p>

<p>It will be interesting to see if CTY ends up changing their requirements. I realize other children may have different experiences from my daughter so some may find the new SAT easier, time will tell.</p>

18

<p>My son qualified for the math courses in CTY but wanted to take a humanities course the following year but was slightly below the cutoff. They were willing to accomodate his request and enrolled him in a logic course as he was able to show in his request a linkage between the course he wanted to take and his performance on a previous CTY course. Once he finished that humanities course he was able to take any CTY course for his remaining year of eligibility.</p>

19

<p>MomOFour, I have the same impression about the new SAT. My 7th grade son took it in December. A couple of weeks before the test he did the practice test in the SAT booklet that CTY sends out, under timed conditions, and he got 690 math and 590 verbal. I felt confident that he would get into the summer programs, but when we were looking at the eligibility charts we came across the information on SET. My son read about it, and got very excited about the online community and the help finding mentors. He realized that the entry level was only slightly above what he'd scored on the practice, and he told me that if he did a few more practice tests to get his speed up he thought he could do better. I got the College Board official book, which has quite a few practice tests. He took two math practice tests, and his scores were much lower, given as ranges with the lower end in the high 500’s and the upper end in the mid-600’s. When I graded the tests I saw that the material was more difficult than what I'd seen on the practice test in the SAT book. For example, there were quite a few questions on functions using graphs, and he hasn’t had this material before. I didn't have the heart to tell him anything but the upper scores, and I had no idea how he'd do on the actual test. By then I was sorry that he had learned about SET at all. </p>

<p>I got his scores today: 640 math, 610 verbal, and 490 writing. He got home from school a while ago and I gave him his scores, and told him that he'd done beautifully and qualified for CTY. He was happy with them, but immediately said that he wanted to take the test again in January to score over 700 (before he turns 13 in February). I told him that I didn't think he should, but he is determined. I should say here that my husband and I have always said that we would never send our children (we also have a 7-year-old boy) to academic programs in the summer. We are both physicists in academic positions, but we don’t push our children academically. My son has done many sports, sailing, art lessons, nature camps, etc. This year he has changed. He’s always been very bright (highly gifted according to the school) and intensely interested in math and science (among other things), but this fall there was a shift in him. He’s very unhappy in school (mixed ability grouping in everything but math) and is demanding more rigor in all areas. He feels alienated from most of the kids; he says they’re either uninterested in grades or overly concerned about grades (as opposed to learning for its own sake). We are in a very good but very small school district (about 100 kids/grade) and there are only a few kids like him spread out among all the grades. I took him to a weekend program at MIT in November, for middle- and high-school students, where he took hard-core math and science courses all weekend (Number Theory, Group Theory, Intro to Calculus, Physics, etc.) Although much of it was way over his head, he loved it, and wants me to take him up there in the spring, where they offer 8-10 week courses taught on Saturdays. He also wants to go to Math Camp and math competitions, and he is planning to be a physicist. He’s been even more unhappy at school since the MIT weekend, except for the special things the school district has arranged for him (9th grade math; high-school science elective, independent project in French). </p>

<p>I've been looking through the archives today and saw a few posts from people with children in SET, who did not seem to find it as wonderful as it sounds on the website. I’m wondering if anyone has used their mentor matching assistance? That is what interests my son the most. If it is worth trying for, I’m wondering whether it is even possible for him to raise his scores enough to qualify. I’m sure he could do better with practice. I can tell him how to do some of the kinds of problems he couldn’t do before. If they lower the qualifying score, he just might make it. But if he needs coaching to do it, then maybe he doesn’t belong in the program.</p>

<p>I’d appreciate any advice. Six months ago I would have said that my son would never participate in CTY. Now he wants to take the SAT for a second time and study for it. My gut feeling is that this is a bad idea.</p>

20

<p>As an FYI...I got in touch with the right person at CTY today and they are not budging on requirements. They will sometimes grant an exception for one year only, but your child definitely has to retest to qualify beyond that year. They also said that according to their information, kids are doing the same on the new SAT as the old one. (I'm not sure how they would know that this soon....)</p>

<p>So now I really have to think about whether I want to put my son through this when he could just as easily go down 10 points as up. And if they do grant him an exception for this summer, and he makes some friends there, he could possibly not be able to return to the same program the following year. I don't know if I want to set him up for that discouraging result either.</p>

<p>Hmmm....</p>

<p>Sharon</p>