Sophomore living off campus with seniors?

Parents Forum
1

<p>I know there have already been various discussions of the on/off campus housing question. But I'm raising it again because our situation has a couple of wrinkles to consider and I'd appreciate others' perspectives on them. And I'm raising it now because DS comes home in 10 days for Thanksgiving break, and I know it will come up, so I want to have thought through it a little bit.</p>

<p>Basic question: What would your position be about a sophomore who has not demonstrated stellar decision-making this year so far moving off campus to live in a house or apartment with primarily seniors?</p>

<p>DS is a freshman at VT, living in the engineering dorm. He gets along well with his room-mate, talks about a variety of friends, seems to be really enjoying the overall college experience, etc.. Grades ... not sure -- he doesn't volunteer much and we haven't specifically asked at this point, but our agreement is that he will share his grades with us at the end of the semester. My gut tells me, from what he has said, that it is a mixed bag of A's through C's. He's taking 18 credits. In HS he was an A student, but I always anticipated the jump to college might be a bit bumpy because he's often hot/cold on tests, and so much of college grades are weighted toward infrequent tests. So, academically, he's probably not doing as well as he'd hoped, but probably not poorly relative to the whole first semester adjustment factor.</p>

<p>His social adjustment had one major pothole in September, when he was cited for being in violation of the underage drinking rules after going to an off-campus party, making it back to the dorm (with help), and then throwing up in the dorm hallway and being taken to the hospital as a precaution Very disappointing decision on his part ... not out of the realm of "typical", but "typical" is nothing to aspire to, when it comes to this sort of behavior. So, now he is on deferred suspension with the University for 2 semesters (through May). It's been the "gift that keeps on giving" as he's had to deal with the extended fall out of it ... paying the bursar for the "dorm damage" fee associated with the cleanup; dealing with the medical insurance associated with his trip to the hospital; paying for his assessment by the alcohol abuse prevention center on campus, etc., etc., etc.. We've been supportive in helping him navigate the process as necessary, but firm in requiring him to deal with it himself and pay for it. </p>

<p>When we visited in October, he mentioned wanting to move off campus next year. We didn't outright say no way (since there is no guarantee he'll get housing for next year), but did tell him that we really strongly favored him staying on campus another year if he got housing through the lottery; we did say, though, that if he figured out the details we could talk about it more. At that point he was talking about moving off campus with other sophomores. However, now the winds have shifted, and he's batting around the idea of moving off campus with students who will be seniors next year. Early in the semester he got involved in a club that is mostly juniors/seniors, and they're trying to put a house together for next year, so that's where this is coming from.</p>

<p>To me, moving off campus with sophomores is not preferable but not unreasonable; moving off campus to live with seniors seems like it has all sorts of red flags associated with it (e.g., he needs to buckle down and study ... they've already figured out this whole college thing, may be taking lighter loads, looking for jobs, having parties, etc.). </p>

<p>So, any thoughts?</p>

2

<p>For me, it would depend on what I thought about the specific kids involved. Do you think this club is a good influence on his behavior? What do you know about the potential roommates?</p>

3

<p>For what it is worth, D1 partied less as a senior than as a freshman/sophomore. For her it was been there, done that. She was more relaxed as a senior because she already had a job. Now, boys maybe different because they tend to mature later. At the same time, I am not sure if he would party less if he were living with people his age. I think I would have him live on campus if at all possible.</p>

<p>When D1 wanted to live in her sorority sophomore year, we had an agreement with her about keeping her GPA at a certain level, otherwise we would move her out. She actually challenged us on where we would move her to if that should happen (her school had very limited housing). I told her not to worry, I would find housing to move her out to. I’ve never let her down before. :)</p>

4

<p>I understand your concern. And not having guaranteed on campus housing makes it worse. You could require him to live on campus another year if you could be sure he would have a spot. Is there any way to make getting an on campus spot more likely? </p>

<p>I would find out more about who these guys are. What kind of club is this? If it were a religious club or an engineering club that would sound pretty good, if it is a social club, more worrisome. </p>

<p>And try to ferret out how much drinking your S is doing now. Yes, he had a hard lesson, but did he learn from it?</p>

5

<p>I would say no because the seniors will be of legal drinking age and he will not. Because he already had an alcohol incident - I would not want him living in an apartment where others can legally drink. </p>

6

<p>Don’t know much about the potential room-mates at this point (I’m sure we’ll learn more as we discuss things over Thanksgiving), other that their age. It is a recreational activity club (don’t want to specify which one here, so as not to impune anyone) that actually sounds really neat, but they’re also very social – I know they host parties fairly frequently. I do not know for sure, but I strongly suspect that it was one of their parties that led to his incident. He said it was the first time he’d been to an off-campus party and the first time he’d had anything to drink since being at college, and it was shortly after he started up with the club. As for whether he’s been drinking since his incident, I don’t have any way of knowing for sure. I know he’s been to a few parties, but he says he just hasn’t had alcohol. He knows that one slip up means he’s out, so hopefully he’s truly not drinking at all. In my world it’d be wiser for him to avoid the situation entirely, since even guilt by association could get him kicked out, and we’ve said as much, but that’s about all we can do … that and pray… </p>

7

<p>For the most part, I think it’s nearly a universal truth that seniors party a lot less than freshmen and sophomores. That’s been true every place I have seen (but I have never seen VT, and maybe it and/or engineers are different from the colleges and students I know). Personally, I partied quite hard as a sophomore, and throttled it way back as a senior. (Not all the way to zero, though.) Seniors definitely feel the pressure of real life breathing down their necks. The one exception may be the very end of the spring semester (and I guess for a sophomore that could be a serious issue). Again, maybe engineers get their permanent job offers so early in the year now that their senioritis starts way before that of other students.</p>

<p>One of my kids lived with some seniors when she was a sophomore, and it wasn’t a problem at all, but she was living with them in part because they weren’t THAT kind of senior. She was by far the most conventionally social person in that apartment, but she always preferred to do her partying someplace other than where she lived, and to have a place of calm and order to come home to. Her brother lived with a senior he knew well (from a shared EC) when he was a junior, and that was also fine, but he was also not that kind of senior.</p>

<p>As for off campus vs. on, again, you really have to look at the details. One of the reason both my kids moved off campus as sophomores was to get away from the constant, annoying craziness in the dorms. They were nothing like straight-edge, but they didn’t want to live around kids who were behaving like your son did this fall, and that was par for the course on campus.</p>

<p>Underage drinking wasn’t an issue for us. I.e., it didn’t bother us that our kids drank before they were 21, we trusted them not to be irresponsible, and by and large they justified that trust. I don’t think there’s any question that living with seniors probably means access to alcohol, but I doubt it means a lot more access to alcohol than sophomores living on campus have as a practical matter.</p>

8

<p>One issue that came up with my son when he was a junior living with seniors was that he was not organized enough to plan his senior year living arrangements. It didn’t help that the landlord decided to sell the house at the end of the year, and ds spent his entire summer in California. Your son sounds more socially adept. We were amazed our kid had off campus friends at all. He doesn’t drink so that wasn’t an issue, but I totally understand that would be a serious concern for you. On the one hand if he does drink, he’ll be off campus where they can’t do much about it, on the other, you’d certainly rather there was less temptation to be drinking at all. </p>

9

<p>I am concerned about him living with seniors who may just have alcohol around the house all the time, given that I’m not completely confident about his decision making process at this point. But alcohol aside, I’m also a bit concerned about his social circle narrowing significantly to primarily seniors who will not be around for the next two years, as opposed to staying more connected with his peers. Overall, moving off campus automatically narrows “easy” social interactions; that is one thing I’m not sure he’s really considered. No more will there be people in his classes on his hallway, or someone to go hang out with right there. Everything will have to be more planned and take more time because he won’t be on campus. That’s a concern no matter who he moves off with, but at least if he’s with people his own age, he won’t have narrowed his social scope to a group that will be disappearing, leaving him to “start over” the following year. </p>

<p>Right now he’s not paying for any of his tuition/room/board out of pocket – he has some scholarships, and he’s paying for his at-school living expenses (laundry, activities, food off campus, etc.) from $ saved from his summer job. I’m trying to think of realistic ways to make him more responsible for his housing if he chooses to live off campus despite getting on-campus housing (if that happens), or if he chooses a living arrangement that seems unwise/risky to us (if he doesn’t get on-campus housing and has to move off), as opposed to just saying, “No, we’re not paying for that.” One thing that occurred to me this AM is having him take $5000 in loans for next year (he was offered those this year but we did not have him take them on) to essentially pay for his housing costs if he wants to make a choice counter to our counsel, with the stipulation that if he (a) stays out of trouble (with the law and/or the University), and (b) maintains a 3.0 with nothing below a C, we will pay the loan off for him at the end of the year. Thoughts?</p>

10

<p>If the $5,000 loan amount is subsidized, I think that would be a good option. Now if some of that funding is unsubsidized, you’re going to end up paying more in the end due to accruing interest if your S adheres to your stipulation. Just something to think about. </p>

11

<p>Off campus housing can be cheaper than the dorms, usually because the meal plans are so expensive. He needs to think about how close the house will be to his classes (can he return home between classes?), how he will deal with meals, etc.</p>

<p>I agree that seniors tend to be over the party-every-night life. If they are all into this recreational activity, they may be spending more time participating in it, planning for it, getting sleep before heading out on Saturday.</p>

12

<p>I would say no way because many of the seniors may be 21 and be legal to buy alcohol.
I also agree with him limiting is social circle…they will graduate and then where will he be.
Also it seems like having some vague dorm supervision might be good for him.
Has he thought about how he will buy food? Make dinners? have to clean up after himself?</p>

13

<p>When my son was a senior, he shared an apartment with younger students.</p>

<p>He was deeply involved in honors research and graduate school applications, so his younger apartment-mates saw some focused, mature behavior.</p>

<p>On the other hand, they also asked him to buy alcohol for them, and he agreed.</p>

<p>And he didn’t remain friends with his apartment-mates after graduation because he moved to another part of the country and became involved in a new life there. Since he was the only senior in the apartment, perhaps this didn’t matter. But if all but one person in the apartment had been seniors, it might have.</p>

<p>Your mileage may vary.</p>

14

<p>My son is a sophomore and lives off campus in a house with primarily seniors and one junior, who are all members of his club (sport) recreation group. It’s also a mixed gender group, two girls & the rest males. While they all get along and enjoy socializing together, they are all also very independent and socialize with others. Ds has other friends and a girlfriend (who also lives off campus), the fellow he shares his room with has his own friends who are living elsewhere off/on campus, etc. Commonalities he and his roommates share are being academically serious and very health conscious (very athletic and into healthy living and healthy foods). </p>

<p>I’m not concerned about drinking. I know some of his roommates have wine with dinner, but they aren’t a “lets drink and get drunk on Saturday night ‘cause it’s the weekend” group. They have one common group meal per week and rotate being the cook. It’s been a good housing experience…several of the seniors are planning on doing a 4+1 program and will be around next year and I hope they all continue sharing a house together.</p>

15

<p>I’m a little surprised that the anyone would think that a house full of sophomores would foster a more positive/healthy attitude towards drinking than a house full of seniors. It might just be my experience, but I see the whole “drinking until you black out” issue as being something that skews younger, not older. Aren’t we always hearing horror stories on this board about new college students going crazy without all of the freedom and getting themselves in serious trouble? Is that something that we really associate more with older students than younger ones??</p>

<p>I understand the preference for staying on campus vs. off campus, but honestly if I had to rank them in terms of alcohol safety and responsibility I would rank the dorm first, the house with seniors second, and the house full of sophomores last. </p>

<p>Sophomores can get their hands on alcohol almost as easily as seniors can and in an apartment without any RA supervision or intervention they can go a lot crazier than freshman can or seniors are inclined to.</p>

<p>I really do like the idea of giving the son some extrinsic incentive to stay out of trouble and stay focused. (To be honest, even a dorm doesn’t guarantee safety and the resident advisor cannot monitor any individual student each and every night. Ultimately, the responsibility for being mature with alcohol rests on the individual not on the living circumstances although of course the people around you do play a role.) If your son is the kind of person who is cognizant of how debt can affect his future then the debt might be a good option. (I put the caveat only because so many kids who post here don’t seem to have a really clear idea on what student loan is all about and the “threat” of a $5000 loan wouldn’t be meaningful to them when they still have three full years of college left before repayment.)</p>

16

<p>You really didn’t ask this question, but I hate the $ incentive the way you’ve framed it. Engineering is a tough field. If Cs are rare at his school, then maybe this is an okay plan. If they aren’t…well… I don’t like it. I think setting things up this way gives him an incentive to pick the courses/professors known as prone to give higher grades and to drop any course he’s struggling with at the midterm point because if he doesn’t pull his gpa up to a 3.0 it’s going to cost him $5,000.</p>

<p>One of my young neighbors was an engineering student at well regarded public U. He graduated with a 2.9. He got a great internship which he turned into a full time job offer. His 2.9 was above the median gpa for engineering grads at his college. Having a sub-3.0 gpa freaked his parents out–and it was lower at the end of his sophomore year. But, he stuck with it and got a great job. If his parents had tried to impose a “3.0 or bust” rule, he would have shifted to an easier major. </p>

<p>Now, maybe the median gpa at VT for engineers is something like a 3.3. If so, 3.0 may not be unreasonable. But I’d find out what the median gpa of sophomore engineering majors is before I’d lay down a rule that anything below 3.0 is going to cost him $5,000.</p>

17

<p>

</p>

<p>And a fraternity house even lower.</p>

18

<p>I suppose things may have changed, but on every campus with which I have been really familiar, including my kids’ campus, the only was a dorm room would rank first in terms of alcohol safety and responsibility would be if the other choices were living in a frat house or living in a bar. And I could make an argument that living in a bar was the safer choice.</p>

<p>Seriously, what kind of alcohol safety and responsibility is fostered in a dorm?</p>

19

<p><<<
His social adjustment had one major pothole in September, when he was cited for being in violation of the underage drinking rules after going to an off-campus party, making it back to the dorm (with help), and then throwing up in the dorm hallway and being taken to the hospital as a precaution </p>

<br>

<br>

<p>No flippin’ way should such a kid move out with seniors. He would have in-house alcohol providers.</p>