Sharing merit/FA results is a very good idea, 4kids. I considered doing a post on this topic a few days ago but thought I would wait until all of D’s non-merit aid was in hand. I’m still holding out hope that some colleges (I’m looking at you, Sewanee) will offer additional need-based grant aid.
I’m pleased that others have found the information helpful in this thread! It’s been great for D’s college search. Lots of thanks to the contributors for keeping the information flowing.
S applied to two of the schools we’ve been discussing (Rhodes, Trinity U) last year and received equal merit awards ($19,000/year) to each.
^ What relevant stats did S have that resulted in the $19,000 merit awards? Thanks.
He had a 3.7UW/4.1W GPA, with a 31 ACT superscore (29 composite for one sitting). ECs were a mix of varsity sports, National Honor Society, some minimal involvement in school clubs, and summer employment as an overnight camp counselor. He’s also a male, and from Michigan, which I think helped.
D and I are trekking to Hendrix, Rhodes, and Birmingham-Southern over the next few days. I’ll write reviews of our trips on this thread when we return.
I read that Sweet Briar College is closing after the end of this semester due to insurmountable financial problems. Even with an endowment over 90 million, this small, rural, women’s college apparently sees the unsustainable writing on the wall. This news makes me take a pause in considering the relatively high grant awards D has received from Birmingham-Southern and Stetson University and their overall relatively low cost of attendance. It seems these two colleges may be needing to significantly discount their cost of attendance to attract students. If this is true, that says something about the future of these colleges, and that something is not a plus. I feel like the low cost of attendance is a both a plus and a negative… especially for Birmingham-Southern given its very recent financial issues and relatively low endowment/student.
What do others think?
I’m not sure. We will be at Hendrix too for the Hays Scholarship. We looked at Birmingham-Southern early on but left them off our list. We just got our Rhodes letter and they gave us high grant aid. It may make us give them a closer look. I don’t think they have the same issues. I would be worried though about the low endowment/student and the financial issues at Birmingham Southern.
Good luck to those participating in the Hays scholarship weekend!
To dadof1:
My daughter and I visited Sweet Briar in our search this year. I loved the grounds and had positive associations with the school. (A neighbor of ours was a French professor and had been involved with their program in Paris for several years).
My daughter did not like the school! My sense was that they hadn’t really figured out how to sell their college to the next generation of students. One of the articles about it closing notes that students like to do internships and to get real world experience and Sweet Briar is near Lynchburg, which is a really rundown small Southern city. My daughter talked about that – noting that Meredith is near Raleigh (and NC state) and Hollins is near Roanoke (and Virginia Tech). My sense is that there were few opportunities for regular casual interactions with boys, and no opportunities for internships. We asked the girls when we had lunch what they did for fun and they said something like “some weekends there’s a bus to Walmart so we walk around and shop.” That seemed really depressing and sad to me.
But I think the bigger issue for me was that they had a biology professor who spoke during the open campus, and he made this crack about how “I’m not a woman – even though it’s a woman’s college. As you can see, I’d make a really ugly woman.” It seemed strange to me, given that most women’s colleges have a lot of teaching and thinking going on about issues of gender and gender identity, and gender theory – that here was a professor at a women’s college who appeared be tone deaf on the subject. My sense is that Sweet Briar wasn’t a place where people were necessarily having conversations about feminism and leaning in, etc. – unlike the Seven Sisters and other women’s colleges. Women’s colleges will survive if they have a specific mission – tied into the larger issue of women in society – much the way that HBC’s still have a role to play in our world today. HBC’s appeal to students who want to talk and think about race, and to whom these issues are important to them. I think the same will be true of the women’s colleges that survive.
Hello all, we recently returned from a visit to Agnes Scott College, where my D participated in interviews for full ride and other scholarship money. She liked the school, mostly, but came away not sold on a women’s college, or at least not this women’s college.
A short report - the campus is beautiful, the location is great. The Scholars’ Weekend was well done for the most part. They even had a cocktail hour for the parents with open bar and passed hors d’oeuvres before the very nice dinner, and a separate dessert reception, with 4 different dessert stations, and a fun photo booth, at a different location. I did appreciate all of that!
But the info. sessions left much to be desired, in my opinion. Every session was basically just open questions - so we had to listen to everyone’s random questions for a hour each time (some helpful, many not).
The overnight program for the students seemed very juvenile (which was, I guess, the point, they said something like “now that you’re ready to be adults, we thought it would be fun to be kids again!”) So it was a big slumber party, with a choice of activities: board games, watching a Disney movie, or playing dodgeball. I’m sure that appealed to many, but not so much to my D.
In addition, my D felt that the extreme diversity, while great, left her feeling isolated. This is hard to explain. She actually talked about the positives of the diversity of ASC in her interview question. But aside from the many “nerdy” and LGBT kids (present at any women’s college, and not a big concern), there was a significant Southern Belle “pearls and monograms” population. This part took us by surprise, and was even more of a culture shock than the other types of diversity. She felt she didn’t quite fit in anywhere.
I did read about Sweet Briar. We never really considered that school, but it seems strange that it would close so abruptly with that endowment. Some of the girls at the ASC event had also been accepted to, and were considering, Sweet Briar. Still, it is cause for concern. I noted that the Sweet Briar president jumped ship just a few months ago - clearly they knew the way things were heading. ASC has a larger endowment, in the $250 million range I believe. But it does make one wonder about the financial health of schools like BSC and Stetson, handing out gigantic merit awards.
Meanwhile, just last week Southwestern U was in the news after two students reported having their drinks drugged at a frat party, and other students came forward with sexual assault reports. Yes, this happens on many co-ed campuses (more frequently on those with frats), but the initial response of the administration was very disappointing. They reportedly planned workshops on “self-defense” and “alcohol awareness.” In other words, the typical rape culture attitude of “women, please figure out how not to get raped,” rather than taking steps to eliminate sexual assault in the first place. More recently, President Burger came forward with some positive, appropriate and encouraging comments, and I’m hopeful they will get their act together on this issue. Still, not thrilled at all to hear this about D’s current first choice.
Still waiting to hear from a few Midwest schools - Grinnell (now there’s an endowment!) and Denison. Also DU here in CO, and Tulane (long shot financially).
@dadof1, really look forward to your trip reports. Hendrix is still on D’s radar (especially with no Greek life!), but don’t think we will get there for a visit any time soon. Safe travels!
@dadof1 D’s English teacher (whose sister is a Sweet Briar grad) recommended last fall that D look at SBC but she vetoed the idea. Too small, single sex, and too far off the beaten path for her. Interesting to me that these were all barriers that the President mentioned with regard to the board’s decision to close down.
We visited a similar school, Wells in upstate NY. They went coed in 2005, a change that has worked for them so far. But it is still a tough sell, getting 150 freshmen each year to come to a tiny campus in rural NY. I think a school’s location can be its biggest obstacle–it is the one thing that generally can’t be changed (or at least is really, really expensive to change).
When I was trying to look up BSC’s endowment ($64 million, I think) I came across a one-page Moody’s rating dated March 5, 2014. It was an excellent, concise summary of BSC’s situation. Moody found that their finances are currently stable, but that there are significant ongoing challenges. One of the consequences of the financial challenge, they noted, is that new construction and (to a certain extent) regular maintenance are adversely impacted by the financial condition.
In looking up Sewanee’s endowment ($336 million), I saw an article from last year explaining that Sewanee was moving to a more conservative means (a fixed annual percentage plus inflation) of drawing down their endowment. I wonder if this is why some merit awards (mentioned here on CC, and experienced in our own household) seem to be paltry in comparison to other similar institutions. I’m not quite sure what their strategy is this year, but D has been hearing regularly from her other admitted schools, yet hardly anything from Sewanee. A form letter from the Dean of Admissions last week to parents explained that Sewanee “offers unparalleled value” and invited parents “who have any further questions about Sewanee” to visit their website (presumably to search on your own for the answers you need)! Not exactly the helpful, personal contact that we have been getting from several other LACs. When COA is at least $15K per year higher than every other school D has been admitted to, it is hard to see exactly where that unparalleled value lies. A great school, but perhaps misreading a sizeable chunk of their prospective student demographic.
Have a great trip south, and we look forward to your reports.
I think Sewanee is trying to move away from the high discount model. I believe ColdinMinny mentioned that Furman is, or has been, doing the same. While steep discounts attract students in the short term, the long-term effects (as the SBC case illustrates) can be disastrous. It seems as though many small LACs are struggling to find the right balance between high quality students, merit, and FA.
Last year, D received letters and emails from admissions, and I received letters from other parents extolling the virtues of Sewanee. D also got a few phone calls from students. The contacts seemed to pick up considerably in March and April. She was equally courted by Sewanee and Rhodes. Not sure what’s up with Sewanee this year. I hope they step up their game.
I studied abroad with Sweet Briar College’s program. My alma mater, Northwestern, considered SBC’s program to be the best, and it still is one of the top-rated programs. Hollins University may take over the study abroad programs. I am very sad, but I do see that SBC suffered from the triple whammy: single sex, isolated location, and liberal arts. There is an article in Inside Higher Ed that explains the situation well.
I saw this list last year when we were in the thick of things: http://www.forbes.com/sites/schifrin/2013/07/24/behind-forbes-financial-grades/. Interestingly, Sweet Briar has an A, so perhaps it’s of little use after all!
^ I find it very frightening that a school with an A rating, ranked 89th no less, has closed its doors for financial reasons.
Our trek isn’t starting out so great. We were scheduled to tour Hendrix today, but the school is closed due to weather. Since we’re already here, D and I will do our own tour… may be better than the dog and pony show anyway! Hopefully, Rhodes will be open tomorrow.
@4kids4colleges It’s important to identify those colleges that are not a good fit for your D. While disappointing, I would take your visit to ASC as an overall positive. On the sexual assault issue at Southwestern U, I’ve struggled with this issue in relationship to my D choosing a college. Don’t really know how to judge a college on this issue other than how the college responds when it occurs and determining what (if any) student educational programs are in place to preempt sexual assault. Alcohol seems to be the common denominator in most assaults.
@MidwestDad3 and others. I find the finanicial aspects of private colleges very interesting. While D never had an interest in Sweet Briar, its closing is a bit of a wake up call. Forbes used seemingly objective measures to rate the financial health of colleges, but Sweet Briar’s A rating by Forbes in 2013 demonstrates how imprecise their ratings are. I would love to see a linear regression (correlation) plot showing the relationship between cost of attendance and some objective measure of college financial health for the same student.
For my D, there is a correlation between a college’s Forbes financial grade and her cost of attendance: colleges with a worse financial grade (and a lower endowment/student) tend to have lower CoA.
BSC: $17,800/year; Forbes grade: D; endowment/student: $38,500
Stetson: $20,000; C+; $66,300
UTampa: $24,000; C; $4000 (yikes)
Rhodes: $27,300; A-; $177,000
Hendrix: $29,700; A-; $116,000
Southwestern U: $30,000; A-; $165,000
Rollins: $32,300; B; $337,000
I don’t have D’s final CoA for Wofford, Centre, Sewanee, or URichmond.
The plus to BSC is that CoA is so much lower; the obvious downside is that BSC may not be long for this world. BSC has pulled one foot out of its financial quagmire by donors infusing money into the college the past few years. Can the college pull its other foot out when it discounts the CoA so heavily?
quick correction to my post above. Rollins’ endowment/student is $99,500, not $337,000.
Here’s an interesting link on college financial health I found in the Sweet Briar thread: http://www.thesustainableuniversity.com/. Don’t know how much weight to put in this site’s metric… Harvard and Duke are lumped together with BSC among the many colleges on an “unsustainable” financial path. Clearly, there is more to a college’s future other than this site’s metric.
@dadof1 Interested in your tour notes from Hendrix and Rhodes if you made it! Sorry the weather did not cooperate.
This is such a great thread, especially for those of us who come behind you for the high school class of 2016 applications. I’m enjoying following your travels and those of other posters on this thread. Most of my research has been web based, but I do like to cross reference info I learn from CC with the info that seems to be more student review driven at places like Unigo, Students Reviews and College Niche. Granted sometimes these reviews are from students who are venting a single incident, and some are from students that did not choose best fit and are regretting it. However, still good info.
@lots2do I happy to read you think the thread is informative and helpful. I hope the thread gives a comparative perspective for the different Southern LACs.
D and I returned this afternoon from Birmingham, AL. Overall, the trip was worthwhile, but the weather definitely tempered the views of both Hendrix and Rhodes. We drove through snow and ice to arrive in AR only to find that Hendrix would be closed the following day. The same happened at Rhodes. By the time we arrived in Birmingham, AL, the weather was beautiful… 60s and sunshine!
Here are our impressions of each college:
Hendrix College:
As I mentioned above, the college was officially closed the day we were in town. 5 - 6 inches of snow was on the ground; however, the sun was shining with temps in the low 40s. Overall, pretty nice. I will try to write as the day proceeded.
We arrived about 10 AM in Conway. This is a town of about 50,000 people and very similar to the town where we live in Michigan… not a plus in D’s mind. From what we saw, Conway is your basic small city with strip malls/target/downtown. The surrounding area is rural, and Little Rock is a not too accessible 30 minute drive away. Headfljndrix is about a mile north of the downtown, which has a few shops and restaurants. Not city life by any means, and for my D, this atmosphere is a definite turn-off.
We arrived on campus to find the admissions building open. D’s name and two others were written on a sign in the reception area but nobody was around. A man was using a leaf blower to ineffectively remove heavy snow from the sidewalk.
We made our way to the science building and were very impressed by the contents. The building has a cheerful feel to it and a some students were actually studying in the enclaves on this snowday morning. As a biological researcher for many years, I can tell what a “real” lab looks like from a classroom lab. Although a LAC, Hendrix has real research being conducted. The non-classroom research labs are used, and Hendrix has the money to support purchasing of supplies for scientific research. Impressive.
It was about lunchtime now, and D and I followed students into the student center building. This place was a beehive of activity because it housed the dining hall. Again, this was an impressive building. Very functional and well laid out. Students were smiling and interacting with each other. We made our way to the cafeteria. Once inside, the smells were more like a restaurant than some Sodexo-serviced food line. The sights were the same. Everything looked fresh and very tasty… but we didn’t eat, unfortunately. The place was very busy with students. This is a college where students choose to eat on campus, even though there are off-campus options.
From then on, we made our way around the campus and tried to go into the library, which was locked. The campus consists of brick buildings laid out in an appealing manner. Lots of trees and shrubs makes me think the campus is an inviting place in warmer weather. Very nice.
D and I called it a day at Hendrix. If this campus and college were in a large city, it would be near the top of D’s list. Conway, AR just doesn’t call to D.
Rhodes College:
D and I had been on a tour of Rhodes about a year ago, so we knew something of the campus. We were hoping to interact with students and actually see the biology building this time however.
We were scheduled to tour Rhodes on Friday, but arrived Thursday afternoon into Memphis. Lots of snow and ice similar to Conway… Memphis is no better at snow removal either.
With no plans, we were happy to see that a prominent lecture was being held at Rhodes that evening. The student lecture series had invited noted physicist/mathematician Brian Greene to give a talk. This lecture embodied everything a college could hope for in an academic presentation. The hall was packed with students and community members; many people stood along the walls. This is what college should be and confirmed our beliefs that Rhodes was a place of learning and sharing of ideas.
After Dr. Greene’s presentation, we walked to the library and found students studying even though classes were likely to be cancelled the next day. Again, this is what college should be.
The next day, Rhodes was officially closed for our tour. We walked around for a short time but no buildings were open. We decided to call it a day and drive to Birmingham, AL.
Birmingham-Southern College:
The weather turned warmer and snow was no longer graced the roadsides as we crossed the Alabama border. Couldn’t have been happier!
We arrived in Birmingham in the late afternoon and drove to the BSC campus. It’s located upon a hill and is very picturesque, even without green vegetation. Overall, the campus has a homey feel to it… very comfortable. It’s located in a relatively depressed area of Birmingham and there is nothing of not within an walking distance.
D and I strode around the campus and ate in the cafeteria for a late lunch. The cafeteria food was edible, but I could see the food becoming a chore to eat after a very short time. We made our way to the science building, which was newer and very well laid-out. A couple of classes (non-science, we think) were going on, and we peered in. Saw one kid yawning and nobody looking too engaged. On the third floor, a couple of professors were chatting in the hall, and one of them stopped us to say hello.
She ended up giving us an impromptu, 30 minute tour of the science building! This is the type of thing I believe BSC is known for… a very nurturing faculty and staff. She graciously showed us around the building and was very informative. Unfortunately, I could see that nothing of note happens in this building as far as research is concerned. This is unlike many of the other Southern LACs we had visited. Definitely a negative.
Downtown Birmingham is a short 10 minute drive from the campus and was lively on this Friday afternoon. Univ of AL-Birmingham is located downtown and would seem to provide a lot of opportunity for BSC students seeking the resources of a large research university. Downtown Birmingham itself seemed very active, something my D would very much enjoy.
Our tour was scheduled for Saturday AM. A beautiful, 60 degree day with full sunshine. We were greeted at the admissions office by the BSC president, General Krulak. The General is a treasure for the university. He conversed with D and I for at least 15 minutes. I had many questions about the financial situation at BSC, and he allayed any concerns I had about the viability of BSC long-term. Apparently, there freshman class size has increased from 250 to 350 last year and is expected to be over 400 for the upcoming class. The college has tangible evidence that it’s future is sustainable. Still, the college doesn’t seem to have extra cash to fund the extras that make a LAC experience exceptional… like funding “real” scientific research in the science departments.
The tour itself was typical. The campus is very inviting. The freshman dorms are crappy (as they are at most colleges) but housing gets better as one progresses. Not much was happening anywhere on campus this Saturday… a few students were out and about, but we wondered where they all were… still sleeping? Went home? Not sure.
The final impression of BSC was that the location in Birmingham was a plus, the campus itself was a plus, but the feel was not nearly as “academic” as at Rhodes or Hendrix.
Thanks @Dadof1! Great review of your trip to Hendrix, Rhodes, BSC. Sounds like your D would order them Rhodes, Hendrix, BSC for her personal preference? I appreciate that you are a scientist and you add that extra bit of observation on the workings of real research happening in the labs (or not). I already had the sense that both Rhodes and Hendrix offer strong biological sciences based on high % of pre-med students, strengths in those areas, and also high on the list of schools that produce PhDs. (Hendrix, I have seen on a top 50 list - not sure where Rhodes falls.)
Did you feel a strong Greek presence during your short time at Rhodes? I keep trying to drop Rhodes from my S’s list based on 50% Greek involvement. That sounds huge for a small campus. I have to tell myself that Greek life at LACs may be quite different from Greek life at large southern universities. Davidson is another I keep discounting because of Greek life domination.
My S is interested in Chemistry - not pre-med - but Chemistry to do research. So I also appreciate your other thread addressing LACs and scientific research. I don’t understand it all, but I appreciate it, and the more LAC like schools we see, the more we agree.
We are visiting UT Dallas - not an LAC - this week - as well as Southwestern U in Georgetown and UT Austin (Definitely NOT an LAC). I will leave my review of Southwestern on this thread on Sunday or Monday.
Thank you for the trip reports, very informative. Glad to hear your thoughts about the science lab facilities, since I don’t know enough to recognize their usefulness. Your D sounds a lot like mine! We are in the final stages of deciding between Tulane, Hendrix and Rhodes. These are the schools we have visited and toured: Rice (3 or 4 times) Tulane, WashU, Harvard (just for fun since we were in Boston), Austin College, Southwestern, UT Austin, Hendrix (twice). We will probably end up visiting Rhodes in April. We live in a town of 60000 between Austin and San Antonio, about 40 minutes to downtown of either. D is interested in neuroscience, Spanish and pre-med. We were at Hendrix last weekend and wanted to provide some info that may prove useful to you and your daughter.
I think you just happened to be at Hendrix during a “perfect storm”–literally and figuratively. More snow than they’ve had in years (if ever) and the Hays Scholarship competition that began on Friday. I hear 138 students (most with their parents) competed and there were tons of admissions events going on. In fact, I would, without even thinking about it, say Hendrix has the most attentive admissions counsellors of any of the schools we’ve visited. At no other school were there so many available activities, not only for D but for parents as well. At last visit, D sat in on two classes, met with pre-med advisor, toured campus, science labs, art studios, plus attended several “canned” presentations. She also spent the night on campus during both visits. I really like that they involve parents in (separate) activities from prospective students. It seemed there wasn’t a moment when one of the counselors wasn’t available and approachable–our own assigned or the rest of the staff.
You already mentioned the lovely campus but it doesn’t sound like you got over to “the Village”. It’s a joint Conway/Hendrix development near the sports complex with homes, restaurants, the bookstore, shopping and upperclassmen housing in apartments. Really nice. We attended a play on campus and it was fabulous. Although Little Rock is 30 minutes away, it seems students attend events there and are kept informed by the school of Little Rock events, as well as more local events. There is a weekly bulletin that goes out via email with events listed. I guess being from such a big state, we are used to driving and 30 minutes is not very distant for us. It seems a lot of the kids are into camping,hiking, kayaking, etc and very nice equipment is available (for free) to check out for the weekend.
During a lunch, we lucked out and sat with a neuroscience professor and his family. They are originally from Canada and have been at Hendrix for 11 years. There will be a neuroscience major beginning next year and he was eager to share the program outlines and philosophy. He mentioned how he enjoyed Hendrix because of the teaching focus yet he could do research as well. The science professors teach the labs as well. One of his students, who began doing research with him as a freshman, is now in med school and he recently received an invitation to her wedding. It seems the professors, administrators and students regularly interact outside the classroom.
As you can tell, there is a lot I like about Hendrix…plus they were very generous with merit aid. DD is not convinced, however, so we will probably go down to the wire. Personally, I think she would be happy at any of the schools, but I have slight reservations about Greek life at Rhodes. Tulane is great but will cost $10k more and with med school in the picture, would prefer the less expensive options at these other fine schools.