Sports

Parents Forum
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<p><a href="See,%20midmo%20-%20I%20never%20even%20mentioned%20%22brain%20in%20a%20jar%22%20this%20time.%20I'm%20getting%20better,%20huh?">quote</a>

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<p>Funny, funny, curmudgeon. Would you believe I was thinking of you and this phrase today? My son is home for the mini fall break, and I was hearing all this stuff about how he is accelerating his schedule in order to get a spot in the A.I. lab of his choice very soon, tacking on extra courses, doing a required course independent study over the next few weeks, blah blah, so I stopped him and said, "But dear, are you finding enough time to get over to the gym? You don't want to turn into a brain in a jar, you know."</p>

<p>He assured me he is still working out. </p>

<p>Opie, I LOVED reading your description of Opie II's quiz bowl exploits--T-shirts, smoke and music. Thanks for sharing that.</p>

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<p>mammall, I didn't thing your posts were that awful and wasn't offended. And I totally understand your frustration about your daughter. When a child is really bright, there can be a huge difference between her "A" and someone else's "A"--even in an advanced class. The high school course exams may only test a small portion of what she knows. But don't worry, in college this kind of difference will show up a lot more and your D will really shine! And on a side note, another perk about college for us was that for the most, parents don't have any influence on campus. The students choose their own leaders without adult input or meddling, so the truly talented, bright, deserving kid can get ahead and attain positions of influence whereas in high school he may have been usurped by the less-qualified child whose mom or dad pulled some strings.</p>

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<p>mamall,</p>

<p>This is going to sound very strange, especially coming from someone who ripped your first post into shreds (hey, I was having a crabby day too!), but I'm starting to re-analyze the tenor of your posts and have come to the conclusion that you did not start out to flame athletes (as much as your first post came off that way).</p>

<p>Given that you didn't mention your family's sports background up front (as well as the academic achievement), the first post was taken as "I don't think much of the athletic bunch in my town (what I know) and don't think of this whole athletic hoopla stuff."</p>

<p>I'll agree with the fact that most athletes' families in most people's home towns have a cranial-rectal insertion problem. That is, most families of athletes don't realize that their kid who is pretty good athletically by local standards, but isn't much else in life, doesn't have much to look forward to college-wise. </p>

<p>I can understand that the overemphasis on Friday-Night football in small towns can be a bit annoying to those with bigger aspirations as well (don't know if this is your particular pet-peeve or not). </p>

<p>I think if you had said, my kids are OK in the athletic department - not all-stars, but are more banking on their other skills because they see themselves as scholars first, hey that is great. Glad to hear that your kids have sorted out their priorities.</p>

<p>But somehow that first post came off wrong without that additional color that brings out your positive experience with balancing academics and athletics.</p>

<p>When I saw the mea culpa, it did make me go back and look at your posts in this topic in total. I probably wasn't at my finest with some of my posts and generally (you can look over my posting history) it is infrequent that I am not a supportive person. I feel badly that you have been misunderstood. Hopefully, we can patch this up and let this thread die?</p>

<p>Sticking out an olive branch....</p>

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<p>mammall,</p>

<p>I repeat what I wrote back in post #71:</p>

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Don't worry mammall, when you come around and realize what a mistake you've made, we'll all forgive you!

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<p>Jazzymom</p>

<p>I just WISH we had a tenth of the support for the arts that we have for sports in our HS. World class playing fields and a decrepit auditorium. And we seem to be having trouble getting the school to even let us fundraise for renovations. We can have a huge Coke sign on the scoreboard, but can't sell tiny little plaques to put on auditorium seats. Very frustrating!</p>

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<p>The OP was recruited to be a college gymnast, and her husband was a division I swimmer.</p>

<p>I was a division I athlete (walk-on.) In tennis (not the sport I was a walk-on), I was 1st singles Varsity in my high school.</p>

<p>I don't think describing either of us as "extremely unathletic" is a fair characterization.</p>

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<p>then why are you taking the side against sports? the characterizations that the op has made arent very fair either. "gulping down fast food on the way to meets"? i highly doubt many people, if any, actually eat fast food before a track meet or a football game, or any sporting event for that matter. most kids i know, including myself, that play sports, are careful about what we eat not only on game days, but during the entire season as well.</p>

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<p>Bethievt: </p>

<p>I will admit that nothing is "world class" at our h.s., including the athletic facililties. But while our performing arts center is getting dated, it was renovated about 15 years ago thanks to a large-amount donor who got their name emblazoned on the facility. I am surprised the administration at your school would balk at donor plaques on seating or whatever. We have lots of those. We had to outfit a new computer center and classrooms --- the physical structure paid for through a bond issue but nothing was included for furniture or equipment --- by selling lots of "donated" by plaques and bricks and naming of buildings to raise more than $250,000 for new computers and the tables and chairs. </p>

<p>Do you know whether the objection is to the fund-raising itself ---- ie. it interferes with some other fund-raising drive --- or to the idea for fund-raising ( no donor plaques!) As I said, we've been selling donor acknowledgment for years --- plaques on the music stands, plaques on the auditorium seating, plaques on the doors to the new computer center, plaques on the computers themselves. Prop-13 came to CA a long time ago; we know all about fund-raising.</p>

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<p>"That is, most families of athletes don't realize that their kid who is pretty good athletically by local standards, but isn't much else in life, doesn't have much to look forward to college-wise."</p>

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<p>Not sure I'd say "most" there goaliedad, but certainly "some". One of the funniest experiences I've ever had was sitting behind the consummate sports dad at senior scholarship night. This guy had spent his life grooming his kids for excellence in sports. They kids were good on a local level, but not really beyond that. I think he looked down on my S for being a little nerdy and not as good at sports as his kid. But when my S kept getting called up to receive those scholarship checks (including for scholar-athlete), he became visibly enraged. I think that was the first time he realized that for college, academic achievement is pretty darn important too.</p>

<p>Also, we've found it frustrating that people automatically assume our D is gunning for an athletic schlolarship. At first, I told everyone that I did not want her to pursue athletics in college at all, esp. on scholarship because unless the sport were really her passion, it's just a very intense work-study job. I'd rather she try new things, and carve out plenty of time in her schedule for attending lectures, concerts, art exhibits and other rich college offerings. But the negative reaction I got from folks was so strong that I quickly learned to just pretend.</p>

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<p>
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That is, most families of athletes don't realize that their kid who is pretty good athletically by local standards, but isn't much else in life, doesn't have much to look forward to college-wise."

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<p>The same could be said for families of musicians, stars of the high school musical, yearbook editors. Within the tiny world of an individual local high school, the quarterback, first chair violinist or diva, can look like the world is his/her oyster. </p>

<p>But there are thousands of such students nationwide, and only a few of them are really <em>that</em> special that they can make it on the college level...or beyond. The trick is an independent observer or two, who can assess the level of talent in the nationwide pool. Otherwise there are a lot of disappointed kids, who think their local prowess means something on a national level.</p>

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<p>Actually, the CC forum itself--specifically the chances threads--can offer a good wake-up call to the provincially-minded. I wasn't even aware of half of the possibilities for achievement until I read some of these posts!</p>

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<p>I agree, Allmusic. But with sports, it's just much more obvious. I can hear a talented high school musician with great tone & true musicality, thoroughly enjoy his playing, yet have no clue if it's exceptional or not. So much of those judgments are subjective, and frankly, so few of us are qualified to make those judgments that we just say 'Wow!" and assume the kid could successfully pursue his talents as a career. Musicians have usually been taking lessons for ten years or more before college, and it's still tough to see who really has it. But voice is another matter, as lessons shouldn't even begin before age 14. Plenty of "sleepers" come from nowhere and are not handicapped in the least by a late start. Actually, they will have escaped vocal damage that kids who began training too early must work to reverse. So it really is more difficult to predict who can make it.</p>

<p>With sports, there are obvious physical limitations that will preclude a kid from moving to the next level. If Johnny's mom is 5'tall, and dad is 5'6", he's not ever going to be big enough to play Div1A or professional ice hockey or football or basketball. His early ability to be an athletic standout will quickly come to a halt, regardless of his natural athletic ability. Anyone can see that as plain as day. (Although, sometimes not mom & dad!)</p>

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<p>I am not talking about the kids who have been weeded out by senior year, due to physical limitations (not tall enough for basketball, for example), intellectual or talent limitations.</p>

<p>Each high school will have a soccer center, a musical star, a first chair instrumentalist, a quarterback. So, they already have shown enough talent at a local level to get to the highest their schools can offer.</p>

<p>My point was that being at the pinnacle of one's local high school means diddly squat in the broader context of college sports, music, theater, etc. because each high school has its own stars, and some of those kids are only stars locally...not compared to the national pool.</p>

<p>I can't speak to vocalists, but I have surely seen high school divas, who plan to head off to theater school or vocal degrees. Perhaps they haven't reached their peak, but a trained expert can hear the potential, if it is there...or not!</p>

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<p>Allmusic, I absolutely get your point. I still think it is much more obvious to see when a kid has no chance in the sports world than in other areas of talent. Maybe we have lots of short guys in my town! There are plenty of stars on varsity teams who still have great hopes of college scholarships, but fail to look in the mirror. Most people who see the 5'9" QB can quickly compare him to Peyton Manning & see the writing on the wall.</p>

<p>As for musical talent, you'd be surprised how many tone deaf people in the audience are praising an instrumentalist or vocalist who can't produce even a proper pitch. And in the arts, kids who are the stars are usually only seen performing, not competing with the stars from other areas. The athletes are alway in competition mode, and of course get more press coverage than other activities.</p>

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<p>You are so right, Allmusic. We come from a small state. When the kid who has been a big fish finally goes to an out-of-state camp, tournament or meet, and gets a taste of the national talent pool, it can be a rude awakening. From the experiences of some of the high school athletes I know who are in sports where subtle differences in quality of performance matter so much, it can be very hard to be appreciated and recruited. Even if these kids travel extensively during their soph/junior year, send video tapes, have coach recommends, and so on, it just can't be easy for college coaches to rank kids from around the country. Our local athletes in sports like soccer, lacrosse, and so on, have a tough time making a case for themselves. College coaches can easily check the talent in their own regions by attending high school tournaments, but will not be able to compare, head to head, athletes from obscure programs in low population states.</p>

<p>On the other hand, kids in sports with objective measurements of skill, like track and swimming, can attract national attention by posting a fast time. If you hit the benchmark, the phone will be ringing off the hook, no matter where you live!</p>

<p>Not sure if there are parallels in the world of music. Do kids feel pressured to go to national competitions to be seen and compared to the national pool? Is there any objectivity in music? </p>

<p>One thing I'm sure of: this process can kick the fun right out of anything pretty darn fast....</p>

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<p>This was a discussion I just had with our music director. Most people in an audience cannot distinguish between the difficulty of musical material, and many cannot distinguish good technique. People listen to the band play a grade 2 march and think they're ready for a national tour. People listen to a violinist play a grade 2 or 3 piece, and yes it sounds great, but what they don't realize is that college auditions require grade 7+ concertos. I knew a young lady who never exceeded grade 4 in her S&E solos; she was the "star", 1st chair, all county.... when she went to audition for college, she came out to her mom in tears, after listening to the kids before her. The stuff they were playing was obviously in a different league and she knew it, even if her mother did not. She refused to go in for her audition.</p>

<p>Of course, the same goes for sports. We have kids who are studs at the 1A and 2A levels. The same kids wouldn't even make the team at a 6A school. It can be deceptive. The only way parents ever realize that their kid does or doesn't have what it takes is when the all-county teams are voted, or when the kid starts going to combines or scouting tournaments and they see what's out there.</p>

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<p>For music, I think a national summer camp (e.g. Interlochen) is great to gain exposure to the rest of the music world and to find out where you stand. I know it is expensive and not everyone can afford it but if the kid is considering auditioning for college then it is money well spent. D went last summer, had a great time, made some great friends and also found out that a) she is good, and b) there are plenty others who are equally good and better.</p>

<p>This thread is about sports but I suppose there are comparable summer opportunities in the sports world too?</p>

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<p>Sure there are summer sports combines, tournaments, camps, and elite teams. But kids who participate in sports are always competing & get more feedback on where they stand than kids in the arts do.</p>

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<p>Let's not lose sight of this basic fact - you don't have to be a nationally qualified star to sing, dance, act , or play ball at college. Just got to pick the right college if you want to continue your activity. Now for someone looking for a career in the field...that's different but a good high school ball player who is too short for D1 ball can find plenty of places to play. Our 3A football team in a good year could give some D3 schools a decent game and my non-recruit bball D made her college team before going over to the darkside. Was her ability to play a hook at some schools where she impressed the coaches? Maybe at a couple. Did it help acceptance? I doubt it. Did it help with scholarships? I'm not sure but I get the feeling it might have based on one coach's phone call to me after D chose her school (really ticked at his school for not offering her a free-ride instead of the generous scholarship they did offer).</p>

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<p>I want to address mammall's complaint:</p>

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my senior is just really off the charts in lots of academic ways and I think it's hard for me to have her lumped in with "well-rounded" kids who don't have her scores, number of APs, teacher support, gpa, etc. but are still up there and able to also point to other areas of achievement. If a tenth of a second matters hugely in swimming or running, why cant 50 points on the SAT or four additional hardcore APs matter for an angular academic applicant?

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<p>With all the hoopla around sports and the like, it's easy to forget that most of the kids that selective colleges admit, the vast majority in fact, are admitted primarily for their academic merit. But academic talent isn't as easy to judge on a box score or a stat sheet as athletic talent. An extra 50 points on a 2400-scale SAT, an extra .05 GPA, some extra AP classes just don't mean that much. In sports (especially speed sports), the number you are seeing is a perfect measure of achievement, if not potential, and is directly comparable to all other such numbers. In academics, SAT scores are the roughest, most approximate measures of anything, although at least they are comparable, and GPA is meaningless unless you have a sense of the school and its standards, and it only serves for comparing candidates within a single school (and not always that). In my daughter's high school class, the valedictorian/class president had an amazing, glittery intelligence that shined through all the time, and was a natural leader. He had national success in math and science competitions. Of course, he had great success in the college admissions competitions as well. Yet it was another classmate of hers, ranked in the top 5% of the class but by no means a superstar, who achieved national prominence last year as the youngest principal author of an article in Science in a decade. And my son's class had a valedictorian/class president, too, but of a completely different sort. Smart, yes, and hard-working, but fundamentally pedestrian, and never a risk-taker at all. His classmates did not consider him the most academically talented kid in the class, and neither, as far as I could tell, did the school's faculty. Plus, things like GPA and class rank artificially favor breadth over depth, when depth is clearly more prized in academia.</p>

<p>There are some national and regional competitions in science and math that can help sort out the talent on a national scale. There really aren't perfect equivalents in other fields -- some contests, some competitions, but relatively few that actually address what scholars do.</p>

<p>Anyway, it's silly to suggest that kids with amazing GPAs, test scores, and strength-of-schedule don't do well in college admissions. What's more, I suspect on a statistical basis 50 SAT points or a couple GPA hundredths, meaningless as they are, do make a difference. The 2350 kids probably do a little better as a group than the 2300 kids, the 35s a little better than the 34s, the class #2s a little better than the class #3s. But one of the traps comes from the roundedness/angularity distinction. I don't think there's any question that roundedness is not what the most selective colleges are looking for. They have the luxury of only taking kids who are basically good at everything, but they want the few from that group who are truly extraordinary at something.</p>

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<p>When I was in high school (all state miler as a junior and senior) I was often asked if I was going to try to run in the Olympics ... and I could only laugh. I was probably about 5000 in line to run the 1500 for the US in the Olympics but locally I looked pretty good. Tons of people are quite oblivious to how many people are good at any activity and just how good the truely gifted are. For me as an all-state miler if I ran in an all out sprint I would not be running at the pace of an olympic quality miler during his race ... I was no where in the hunt. </p>

<p>I was all state ... which was pretty good ... but lets take another look. 6 guys were all state in the mile ... but that was in my division (size of school) ... in Maryland there were 4 divisions of schools ... so there are 24 all-state milers per year ... but Maryland is one of 50 states ... so there are something like 1200 all-state milers in the US each year. And the Olympians are drawn from the guys 20-30 years old so about 10 years of all-state milers ... now we're up to about 10,000 guys ... and I was in th middle of this pack ... so 5000 broken legs and I'm running in the Olympics. </p>

<p>There are something like 30,000 high schools in the US ... that is heck of a lot of top milers, newspaper editors, leads in the play, etc.</p>