<p>Even as far as funding sports is concerned, there have been complaints from public school parents around here who feel that taxpayer money should benefit every child equally to the extent that is possible--no matter what talent they may or may not have. So, friends of mine whose kids aren't good enough to make the high school sports teams here have commented that since their taxes are supporting athletics, their child should get to play. If that means play in an intramural program, then so be it. But we have no intramural programs. A similar complaint could be made about our music programs and science olympiad programs. There's no "JV" chemistry olympics team, for example. Why should only the best get to do it if every parent must pay?</p>
<p>There are a lot of people who complain about the unequal funding of all types of activities within public schools.</p>
<p>There are those B/C student parents who complain about the money spent on gifted, remedial, and special ed programs by the district, just like those who complain that the football team gets more spent on it per pupil than the marching band.</p>
<p>What people forget is that public education is not about spending the same amount of money and providing exactly the same experience to every student. Every student is different with different needs. Some of the money is set aside for bringing students up to the level of their peers and some of it is spent to make more talented students achieve to a higher level.</p>
<p>While the football team always seems to attract attention (positive and negative) because of the public nature of the event, it is just another thing that schools do to serve the unique children in its care.</p>
<p>And heaven forbid that we treat all of our kids in school equally from a financial perspective. Do we treat our children exactly the same within our families? No. They have different needs, some more costly than others.</p>
<p>I think most of this type of complaining is a poorly rationalized grab at more resources by parents for thei own parochial interest who don't look at the overall well-being of the whole community.</p>
<p>I think the number of whining parents there are is a testament to what a great First Amendment we have!</p>
<p>soozievt, you misunderstood the purpose of my post. It was not to imply that students must choose academics or sports or that national achievement was necessary for admission to a highly selective. it was meant to remind hops in post #166 not to believe everything posted here or any other on line forum where participants are anonymous.</p>
<p>Most outstanding students are outstanding performers in another area be it sports, arts, public service just because of their natural drive. Thats a wonderful thing.</p>
<p>In our large public school district, each of our 20 high schools gets a very small sum of money each year from the county (i.e taxpayers) to support athletics. It is up to the booster club and the team members themselves to raise money for things they need. My S's have done fundraisers for their football teams every year. </p>
<p>Don't know how it works everywhere else but football, for as much as it is maligned for getting to much money and attention, carries the load here for funding all 27 athletic teams at our school. All of the money taken in on Friday nights does not go to the football team. It supports the tennis, swim. wrestling, cross-country, baseball,softball teams too. If those teams were dependent upon their gate receipts, they would never make it. So while it may be true that football gets a lot of attention from the community, it is that attention that helps keep every athletic team in the school afloat.</p>
<p>Our school does have a lot of club teams that anyone can join. Most of them started by the kids themselves who convince a teacher to sponser them. Lots of kids who may not enjoy conventional sports and those (like my S) who are varsity players all have a great time being in the Ultimate Frisbee club, the Dodgeball Club, even the Ping Pong club.</p>
<p>"There are those B/C student parents who complain about the money spent on gifted, remedial, and special ed programs by the district"</p>
<p>And in most school districts in our country, the school board is elected. Next time there is a school board or bond election, go to the meetings and ask for what you want. Districts are particularly willing to listen during election time. And hold them to their promises!</p>
<p>goaliedad,
I think your post could sum up this thread in that it expresses the idea that the sports component of schools is meant to meet the needs of some students with an athletic talent or interest in sports. School athletics programs shouldn't be any different from offering service or hobby-based clubs, special academic programs/competitions, or arts-related organizations. These meet the needs of other students. And sometimes there is overlap and they serve the same involved students! Having these activities benefits even students who don't participate because they promote a feeling of community and belonging, and in some cases service to the student body.</p>
<p>And while athletics may require more resources than other endeavors, some of that is just due to the nature of the beast rather than an unhealthy societal over-emphasis. For sports you need coaches, playing fields, field maintenance workers, referees and officials, buses, etc. whereas the military history club may only require an advisor, a classroom, and an occasional bus for a field trip. The spending differential doesn't have to be seen as something unfair. Also, in most high schools, the sports teams do serve a huge number of students compared with other EC's, especially when you have 3 teams in each sport for each gender (freshman, JV, and V). Very few other activities attract that many students. In our school, just the marching band, the FBLA, and the JSA come close.</p>
<p>And the point about fund-raising is well-taken. Now, many teams must do additional fund-raising because the cost of busing is so high. So, they sell active wear, hold car washes, etc. And lastly, when an organization works hard and does well, it's amazing how suddenly more funding becomes available. Our marching band receives a lot of money out of the school budget because they do well and bring glory to the school. I'm sure it wasn't always that way.</p>
<p>"A similar complaint could be made about our music programs and science olympiad programs. There's no "JV" chemistry olympics team, for example. Why should only the best get to do it if every parent must pay?"</p>
<p>Actually, there are JV academic teams. Most often, a high school will maintain a "B" team if there is interest and those guys can compete too. </p>
<p>You're right about there being no JV chemistry olympics team, but there is no JV under-19 US soccer team either.</p>
<p>"but there is no JV under-19 US soccer team either."</p>
<p>yes there is. They are called reserves and the ODP program with it's different levels of players are what could be considered a varsity, jv, jv2,jv3,jv4 and so on. Wrong sport to cite about lacking layers. :) </p>
<p>They just don't call it JV.</p>
<p>all of the people in this thread opposing sports are kids or parents of kids that are extremely unathletic and havent played sports since t-ball in 1st grade.</p>
<p>I'm with you GFG.</p>
<p>And the funny thing about it is, if my D were at the local public HS (she's in boarding school), her sport (ice hockey) is considered a "club" sport (i.e. no school financial sponsorship). Do I feel cheated? No, because where we live ice hockey is not particularly popular. I don't feel the schools need to financially accommodate ALL of the extra curiculars of small groups of kids participating in something that isn't of the local culture.</p>
<p>I did intentionally mention things that cost extra per student like special education, that DO need to meet the requirements of small groups and even individual needs. In full disclosure I also have an Asperger's son. And my district does a pathetic job of meeting special ed needs - they spend more money in litigation than on their autism programs. Would I argue that they should cut the football teams' budgets to help my son? I don't think that the proposition should be put that way. They have the money, but spend it poorly. Unfortunately, there are those who do choose to start the argument between groups in order to keep themselves insulated from fixing the problems. Threatening to cut the football team is always a favorite tactic of politicians to try to get other objectives done (i.e. get a bond issue, raise taxes). Unfortunately, sometimes it is the only thing that people listen to. And I think it adds fuel to the fire that athletics is somehow taking away things from other endeavors.</p>
<p>soozievt, if there is/was no academic compromise, then why did the ivy leagues collectively decide to raise the academic standards for recruited athletes a few years ago? I read that in my school newspaper. I'm sure most people on campus didn't notice the difference in the Harvard-Yale game when they started raising the academic standards for recruiting athletes (and thus lowered the athletic talent they could recruit.)
Also, there is a big controversy at the small elite liberal arts colleges like Amherst because they are doing the same thing. It is more of an issue for the small colleges because their student body isn't large enough to have the academic stars and the athletes. Also, Dartmouth in particular has been trying to make their student body more academic at the expense of the "helmet sports", as one leaked memo by a school administrator put it. The alumni put an ad in the paper protesting the recent changes the Dartmouth president has pushed through.</p>
<p>Obviously, the ivy leagues and the small liberal arts colleges felt that they had to compromise on academic talent or they wouldn't have instituted the changes. Maybe this has been corrected completely, or maybe they are just compromising academics somewhat less than they used to.</p>
<p>Anyway, I have no doubt that the vast majority of recruited athletes are smart enough to become professionals and are decent/good students at the colleges. However, there is a big difference between the students who get the "A" in a college class and the student with the intellectual creativity and determination to get the "A" and be capable of coming up with new insights in the field. Also, the fact that many athletes become doctors doesn't really tell me much, either. Medical schools favor athletes also; it makes even less sense in this arena. There are studies showing a very close inverse correlation between MCAT scores and malpractice. Yet, if you have a pretty good MCAT score but are a great athlete, you have an advantage over someone with a higher GPA and perfect MCAT scores. I know a couple of guys who were interviewed at Harvard Med and were rejected. They both had near-perfect grades at prestigious schools and MCAT scores in the top 1/100th of a percentile or something ridiculous. In the interview, the guy said, "The last guy climbed Mount Everest. Have you done anything like that?" Climbing Mount Everest has no relation whatsoever to how good of a doctor you are going to be. Neither does winning a gold medal in the olympics. One of those guys decided after getting rejected that it wasn't worth it, and he went to Wall Street. The other one is now being heavily recruited to be a faculty member and has done research that has been featured on the national news. I think the BS involved in med school admissions is driving some talented people out of the field. BTW, both of these guys got into Johns Hopkins, so there wasn't some hidden flaw. Johns Hopkins is much more focused on recruiting academically strong people; it's sort of like the Caltech of medical schools.</p>
<h2>all of the people in this thread opposing sports are kids or parents of kids that are extremely unathletic and havent played sports since t-ball in 1st grade.</h2>
<p>The OP was recruited to be a college gymnast, and her husband was a division I swimmer.</p>
<p>I was a division I athlete (walk-on.) In tennis (not the sport I was a walk-on), I was 1st singles Varsity in my high school. </p>
<p>I don't think describing either of us as "extremely unathletic" is a fair characterization.</p>
<p>yes there is. They are called reserves and the ODP program with it's different levels of players are what could be considered a varsity, jv, jv2,jv3,jv4 and so on. Wrong sport to cite about lacking layers. </p>
<h2>They just don't call it JV.</h2>
<p>Well, ok, they actually have a selection camp of about 50 people where they study chemistry for the summer before they decide who will compete, so I guess you could consider that a JV Chemistry olympics team.</p>
<p>People whose kids benefit from unequal extracurricular spending never think there's anything unfair about it --- and I can understand that. You protect what you got. </p>
<p>What does amaze me is the insistence that everyone agree that it's fair, that it is in fact right and just for the athletic budget to take the lion's share of the school's activities fees, even though athletic programs serve only about a third of the students in the school. IMO, you have to be swimming in the Kool Aid to buy that. Yeah, yeah, I know, this is considered "whining." I picked up on that.</p>
<p>"Well, ok, they actually have a selection camp of about 50 people where they study chemistry for the summer before they decide who will compete, so I guess you could consider that a JV Chemistry olympics team"</p>
<p>no issue about the science team, you just chose the wrong sport to use. :) What you might consider is some of the acedemic teams at schools are "cut"
sports. </p>
<p>What's lacking with some of you folks is a sense of humor about life. As I said my son did both the smart kid stuff and the jock stuff. Both have their merits. This also allowed him to maintain a sense of humor while having a foot in each camp.</p>
<p>My favorite times during his knowledge bowl run to the state championship, was the t-shirts they had made to resemble the grey atheletic department shirts... you know the ones that have XXL and a spot for a number? The front of theirs read like this</p>
<p>MMMMM HS
Knowledge
XXL</p>
<p>Bowl Team</p>
<p>The back had a saying "NO really, it's a sport."
Which won out over "How much you SAT?"
(for those who don't know that expression it's from "How much you bench?"</p>
<p>For the finals, the knowledge bowl team to a full auditorum (1,000) came out in their t-shirts through a smoke machine and arena rock music. The field house announcer came in and did the introductions in his best booming voice.. Now ladies and gentlemen.. at 6 foot 185lbs a four year knowledge bowl letterwinner.. senior captain opie of mayberry's kid." To which he appeared through the smoke and noise to a standing ovation and stomping feet through each "player". </p>
<p>Probably intimmidated the other two schools, but it was a classic. They won the championship and have a banner right up with the sports awards. His ideas were pretty darn good as it brought alot of positive attiention to kids who usually you don't notice till graduation night.</p>
<p>Hey, I have to put out a mea culpa for some of my posts. Just really went through a crab fest there this past weekend and it all seemed to manifest on this board. No excuses beyond stress of college apps in my house, aging parent issues, the usual. I'm really mortified by some of my comments on sports kids going to no-name schools just to keep on with their sport. Ugh.</p>
<p>I think collegealum and others on here are articulating much better than I managed what is eating at me. It's this notion that beyond a certain level, all academic achievement is equal. I'm sensitized to this right now because my senior is just really off the charts in lots of academic ways and I think it's hard for me to have her lumped in with "well-rounded" kids who don't have her scores, number of APs, teacher support, gpa, etc. but are still up there and able to also point to other areas of achievement. If a tenth of a second matters hugely in swimming or running, why cant 50 points on the SAT or four additional hardcore APs matter for an angular academic applicant? Maybe it does and just isn't talked about that much. We'll find out in a few months. The irony is that my D may be deemed not passionate enough for single-mindedly pursuing her passion - inquiry.</p>
<p>Anyway, it's always amazing what a good night's sleep can do for one's perspective. I do think we emphasize sports too much in this society. I also love following the NBA.</p>
<p>mammall, there have been plenty of times I wish the twenty minute edit time-out feature on cc could be extended to two days, too. Had I been here to read your posts when they were fresh, this would have been one of those times for me. ;)</p>
<p>I'm the dad of a state champion basketball player who was the co-captain of the Math Team and was a state qualifying musician. </p>
<p>I love what athletic competition brought her. I'm sure others find the same thing from other pursuits. This was her path. There are other paths.</p>
<p>Peace. </p>
<p>(See, midmo - I never even mentioned "brain in a jar" this time. I'm getting better, huh? ;) )</p>
<p>mamma11: >>The irony is that my D may be deemed not passionate enough for single-mindedly pursuing her passion - inquiry.>></p>
<p>From what I understand, the elite colleges want to build a well-rounded class of freshmen but not necessarily a class of well-rounded freshmen. They strive for balance in the whole but don't mind if the individual parts are skewed. Whether it is in the best interests of the individual parts to be so skewed is a separate question that has been the subject of much discussion on this thread.</p>
<p>If your senior is really "off the charts" in academic ways, the lack of sports may not be as much of a problem as you fear. Keep us posted when you find out in a few months, will you?</p>
<p>I have not finished reading all the posts, but one thing comes to mind: I have had kids compete in sports in two different communities, one resulted in the ability to play sports each term, no requirements for year round commitment and yet still suport and encouragement for those who chose to take it to the higher level.</p>
<p>The other was a bit off, in that I really knew parents who red-shirted their kindergartners to give them an advantage in HS sports; parents who wooed the HS coached when their kids were in grade school, parents who played some horribly "little league" parent games. If momalls area has a twisted (think TX cheerleader murder) sports culture, her experience could be vastly different than anything any of us have experienced, her feelings could be generated by some really sour experiences.</p>
<p>I am so glad my athlete got to play where she could be a three sport athlete and still go to state champs in two sports, could have fun, and still do well and not have parents plotting against her :eek: By the same token, I am glad that academic rnakings involved no sport or art classes, but every one had to take sports or arts, but teams count towards PE- just lots of logical decisions had been made before we got their. So, not so much tilting at windmills needed ;)</p>
<p>My hand is raised... we've had our share of horror sports team stories (both youth sports and varsity level! :eek:). I treasure the great moments, try to forget about the rotten ones.</p>
<p>The most fun I've EVER had in a "competitive" event was chaperoning the State Latin Forum. A thousand-plus kids from all over the state in a convention center at Downtown Disney, running up and down aisles with banners, passing inflated balloons overhead, kids in togas, kids in laurels... what a trip. And that was just the first hour of a 48 hour event. Who knew that orating and parsing was so much fun?</p>