<p>mammall, I agree 100%!!!!</p>
<p>Mammall- that is correct. I guess that is one reason I object to the all-inclusive terms of "sports" and "athletes". There aren't ever any cheerleaders at cross country or track meets! Lots of sports can actually be quite solitary.</p>
<p>I guess "hisgracedidn'tfill you" when it came to sports, HisGrace??? Maybe you were picked last...... How you get to the mindless-jock thing from keeping PE is beyond me. I agree with the pity post on that one.</p>
<p>You obviously didn't read my last post, MOWC. That's all I have to say.</p>
<p>And I agree with mammall as well.</p>
<p>Oh, and grace has nothing to do with this, by the way. You're misinterpreting the meaning of my s/n.</p>
<p>"do want to venture to say that there are some kids who do not play on sports teams who are nonetheless quite fit. Some dance, some climb mountains, some bike, some just eat really well and do yoga. The competitive playing field - uniforms - cheerleading - pep band - scene is just not a comfortable zone for some kids. Not saying better kids, mind you. Just different."</p>
<p>Spot on! One of the reasons you got jumped on eariler is you came across as a black/white no grey in your statement. A kid can be many things and should be encouraged to do so. My D especially was known as the "whitman's sampler".. she nibble here and there, try something for a season, then try something else... no worries. Our only worry really was that she would decide to do nothing. We never cared if it was individual or team, just get your buns off the couch. </p>
<p>I think had you come out with that statement early on mammall, you would have found much more agreement than disagreement.</p>
<p>"The PE system needs to be revised, but I don't know if we're thinking of revision the same way." </p>
<p>You see the problem is in many school district PE is an hour a week at elementary level. How can you revise an hour to be inclusive of individual activities, introduction of good health habits, learning team activities? </p>
<p>My wanting an hour a day isn't going to make a smart kid into a "mindless jock". (which was very offensive when you put it that way.) </p>
<p>What it would do is help burn calories, reduce stress/excess energy build up to create calmer students during classtime, discover individual/team activities and have some fun. Fun is slowly being sucked out of schools these days to meet NCLB demands. Things like show n tell, art projects for parents are losing ground timewise in the classroom cause they aren't working towards passing the tests. </p>
<p>So I don't think I'm pushing a concept that's going to turn anybody into a mindless anything. In fact, I think I am doing more for intellectual persuits by wanting kids to burn off some excess energy to enhance their study skills.</p>
<p>See, but not everyone works that way.</p>
<p>Take me for instance...If I'm tired, I lose focus, not gain it. I thrive on having that extra energy, because it makes me want to study more, not less. And I know several kids who are just like me.</p>
<p>And I'm sorry I offended you, I shouldn't have put it that way.</p>
<p>There are also some recent studies they did where they studied whether exercise improved grades. They had one group of high school students do like 30-45 minutes of cardiovascular exercise in the morning, and the other group didn't do anything. The group that exercised had dramatically improved grades and reported being able to think much more clearly. </p>
<p>So exercise of some kind is important even for intellectual study. However, when it gets to the point where you are sinking 3-4 hours a day as a college varsity athlete and then feeling completely exhausted afterwards, at that point exercise probably is hurting your studies.</p>
<p>Also, probably some sports are more exhausting than others and are harder to manage and still be an outstanding student.</p>
<p>When my children were in elementary school, I made them walk the two miles to schools with me, every day. It wasn't power walking, to be sure. We took the time to talk and look around, but when they got to school, they were wide awake and had already had some exercise. (It was good for me, too, since I made the two miles back in quick time.)</p>
<p>My point is that there are a lot of ways to get some exercise.</p>
<p>another way to get exercise is to see if your school offers any classes in physical education other than regular pe. my school has two: lifetime fitness and team games. lifetime is basically lifting weights, running, stuff to keep you in shape. team games, which i take, is playing sports for an hour. its an awesome class, and its my first hour class, so it does an awesome job of waking me up.</p>
<p>"If I'm tired, I lose focus, not gain it. I thrive on having that extra energy, because it makes me want to study more, not less. And I know several kids who are just like me."</p>
<p>Try to remember how you were at grades 1-5. I see it, I hear about it, I know what I am talking about. A large portion of behavor/disruptive situations are the basic "ants in the pants." That is kids with excess energy and the are not yet mature enough to channel that into studies. I doubt you really remember how you were in a classroom at 8. </p>
<p>As adults, I would agree it is hard to learn when tired, that's what coffee is for. </p>
<p>The other thing I would mention here, is why do so many write only in the extreme? They'd be too exhausted to learn? really after a half hour recess? are they running progessive sprints?</p>
<p>And for those who don't know NCAA atheletes in season is capped at six days a week and 21 hours training. So while it is hard, it is not impossible. Hence the title of acedemic all american. Somebody can do it and do it well.</p>
<p>"My point is that there are a lot of ways to get some exercise"</p>
<p>and I would agree passionately. But if you're going to only have a pe specialist an hour a week, how much new and different can you do?</p>
<p>^You make an interesting point, and I really hadn't thought of it that way (see, I can admit it! XD). I work with young children on Wednesdays, and most of the time they're very high-energy, but if you ask them to calm down they'll do it. But maybe they're the exception and not the rule, I don't really know.</p>
<p>What are your state's requirements for PE, Opie? In our state, students get 90 min. every other day or 45 min./day. In elementary school, they have gym 2x per week usually. They have PE teachers handling all those classes.</p>
<p>One friend always used to say, "Boys are like dogs. You have to take them out for a run everyday." I agree. My own son, who has ADD (focusing issues, not hyperactivity) absolutely NEEDS physical activity in order to concentrate. Fortunately, my neighborhood is a safe one where he can fling his bookbag down and ride a bike, scooter, kick a ball, skate, toss the football, etc, etc. etc. Even if no friends are around, he'll just grab the pogo stick & do 1000 jumps, or shoot hoops by himself. If we're not running off to an organized sport or music lesson, he's getting exercise the old fashioned way. And kids in our town walk to school, unless they're carrying in some bulky project & need a ride. I absolutely HATE rainy school days when I know the kids were herded into the auditorium at lunch/recess. I know he's probably going to tune out for the afternoon. </p>
<p>As far as physical fitness goes, he's built like a linebacker. Not fat, but broad & solid. If he weren't getting exercise, he'd definitely have a serious weight problem.</p>
<p>"What are your state's requirements for PE, Opie? In our state, students get 90 min. every other day or 45 min./day. In elementary school, they have gym 2x per week usually. They have PE teachers handling all those classes"</p>
<p>You know, I'm not absolutely sure. I know the elementaries have pe "specialists" that work at several schools rather than just one. As we deal with NCLB, the first thing taken away is activity to make more time for math, reading, etc.. I think things might improve in these other areas of concern (math, reading..etc.) if kids were given a little more time to stretch their legs. A reverse idea from those making the suggestions now. </p>
<p>Let me point out that before my comments about NCLB become a political debate, this concept of shorting pe and recess has be going on for a while, prior to Nclb. It just seems as if it has stepped up as school districts cope. While I don't care for the current administration, they didn't create the situation. It seems like it's been happening for a long while.</p>
<p>Being the parent of a D1 athlete who attended a competitive magnet high school, had a decent high school GPA (3.8 unweighted with a heavy honors/AP course load, and no student having a 4.0 or higher GPA) and SAT score (14xx/1600 CR+M, only taken once with no formal preparation) I would like to address the original post. I do so just to give the OP a different perspective on the student-athlete…to present some of the facts relating to athletics and that there are many variations of the stereotypical athlete. This is a personal experience and is in no way meant to be offensive to anyone or to degrade any one else’s curricular or extracurricular interests. All ECs have value and can contribute to the same learning experiences as athletics.</p>
<p>OP - “I have rarely heard of students in my city attending a college with much in the way of name recognition on a sports scholarship. Furthermore, the students in my daughters' high school who pursue sports really hard rarely seem to go to very selective schools. A fair number seem to go to regional little known small private schools with, say, 1/2 tuition scholarships.”</p>
<p>In reality, sports scholarships are a rare commodity. I will use men’s sports as an example. First of all, outside of football (maximum of 85) and basketball (maximum of 13), and ice hockey (maximum of 30) there are very few ‘full ride’ scholarships at any D1 school. Most are partials. Consider the following at the D1 level: men’s track is allocated a maximum of 12.6 scholarships, swimming 9.9, wrestling 9.9, tennis 4.5. (<a href="http://www2.ncaa.org/portal/academics_and_athletes/education_and_research/academic_reform/understanding_penalties.html%5B/url%5D">http://www2.ncaa.org/portal/academics_and_athletes/education_and_research/academic_reform/understanding_penalties.html</a>) These scholarships have to be divided up between all team participants. When one considers the total number of high school student athletes compared to the number of spaces available at the collegiate level, the probability of receiving any athletic scholarship in any sport is slight. </p>
<p>Also, from going through the recruiting process, we found that many schools with ‘name recognition’ do not give athletic or academic scholarships. They give purely need based financial aid. This is the case with the Ivies and many of the LACs. Some student athletes will still choose to attend these schools paying full sticker price (many of S’s friends did – several attend HYP). However, there are others, including my S, who chose to go to an OOS Flagship University on an athletic scholarship that covered a percentage of the COA. This school does not have the same level of prestige factor as some of the schools which recruited him (including the Ivies) but has a top 20 nationally ranked Engineering program.. When he made this decision two years ago, many thought he was completely nuts to turn down the more prestigious admissions offers (‘likely’ letters). However, S felt the OOS State U was an excellent overall ‘fit’ for him and we as a family felt the monies saved on the undergraduate tuition difference would be put to better use for graduate study. This was purely a personal family decision based on our family’s situation. He is currently a sophomore majoring in Engineering and minoring in economics. This year, in addition to his athletic scholarship, he was awarded a merit scholarship based on his academic performance freshman year. Also as a side note, his team placed highly on the Academic All-American Team list last year.</p>
<p>OP - “When I think of all the sports camps, travel team costs, private coaching, etc. “</p>
<p>Initially, S was involved in his sport at the recreational level. He liked it so much he asked to participate in a year round club. We did incur costs for the club as well as travel. However, we did it within the means of our family. There were times we said ‘no’ to opportunities to participate at events thousands of miles from home. We thought that the monies would be better saved for education purposes. (Again, some people thought we were nuts not to attend these ‘high level’ competitions.) We set up our own priorities.</p>
<p>OP - “-- not to mention the opportunity costs in terms of building their intellectual side, I just really don't see the point.”</p>
<p>We never thought we were losing the opportunity to build S’s intellectual side. At an early age he was involved in academic endeavors as well as scouting, music, and other recreational sports. He was also very interested in science and we used to do science related activities at home. As he approached high school, he decided to reduce the amount of activities in which he was involved. We could start seeing his ‘passion’ for his sport emerge.</p>
<p>Within his middle school, he was considered a ‘wimp’ because he never played on the recreational football teams within our community (they start in second grade around here). He was also considered a ‘geek/nerd’ because he had high grades and had a proclivity for math and science. When high school came he decided to apply to a competitive, magnet, public, technical high school which accepts less than a quarter of its applicants. He was accepted. It was here that he took engineering related courses in addition to his full load honors college prep courses. He also was involved a robotics project for two years. (The funny part of this is that, in this ‘geeky’ environment, he was considered a ‘jock’ even though the school did not offer his sport…LOL…Life plays funny games sometimes.) </p>
<p>The value of sports as it relates to my S.
1) S has always been high energy. His sport has given him a release for that energy. This release allows him to focus more clearly on his academics and stay organized. He has always said that it keeps him from wasting time.
2) He has met a lot of different people from different walks of life.<br>
3) He has learned listening skills, teamwork, and time management skills.
4) He has learned how to deal with failure.
5) He has learned how to be a good loser and a good winner.
6) He has learned how to travel, including finding his way around an airport by himself, and travel etiquette.
7) He has learned how to get to an appointment (practice) on time.<br>
8) He has learned how to communicate and relate to adults (parents, coaches, officials, etc.)
9) He has learned how to always have a book available for those LONG rides.
10) He has learned how to balance his life.<br>
11) He has the sense of accomplishment in that he is ‘earning’ part of his college education.
12) Along with all the hard academic and physical work, He says he is having FUN!</p>
<p>To answer some hard and not so hard questions:</p>
<p>Did athletics have an overall impact in college admissions?
Yes, definitely. Although his grades and test scores were very good by normal standards, they would be considered marginal at best at several of the schools that recruited him. His national ranking was his ‘hook’.</p>
<p>Do I think that athletics has taken away from his academics?<br>
Yes, I think it has to some degree. The time commitment for athletics at the collegiate level is huge. It definitely reduces/eliminates time for some additional intellectual pursuits as well as everything else.</p>
<p>Do I think athletics has a negative impact on grades?
Yes, at times I believe it does. When there is an exam coming up and the team has to be out of town prior to the exam definitely can have a negative impact. However, if he were not involved in athletics, I cannot say that he would be using the extra time to study. Most likely he would use it to be involved in other ECs. </p>
<p>Would I support S if he wanted to give up his sport?
Yes.</p>
<p>Do I support my S in his sport?
Yes.</p>
<p>Do I think his sport has been a good experience and has it been worth the investment?
Yes and Yes!</p>
<p>Would I recommend a student being an intercollegiate student-athlete?
It definitely depends on the student.</p>
<p>Fabulous post, GeekAthletesMom, thank you.</p>
<p>You are welcome, mammall.</p>
<p>Would we even be having this conversation if we were talking about a kid who plays the violin in the county orchestra, spends many hours per week practicing and then plays in a serious orchestra in college? Would people object if their school district wanted to spend money to fly their orchestra to a music competition in another state or upgrade the music facilities? I think there is a stigma with some folks about sports. Yes, there may be too much emphasis on sports, but welcome to society. The fact is that for many, many kids, high school sports are an integral part of the social fabric and spirit of high school. Maybe it is too bad, but the science fair winner is not.</p>
<p>"The fact is that for many, many kids, high school sports are an integral part of the social fabric and spirit of high school. Maybe it is too bad, but the science fair winner is not."</p>
<p>Winning the science fair, though noble, is a more solitary pursuit that fails to unite a large group of people around a common goal. Even hs academic teams tend to bring glory more to the individual members than to the school, especially when the competition format involves busing a small group of students to an area high school where each of them individually takes a math or science test and then the scores are compiled. Even the more individual sports like tennis still provide spectator interest.</p>
<p>Musical groups have the potential to have more of a school pride aspect to them, but sometimes they can stick to an approach that is a bit too highbrow for popular consumption. For example, when our school's marching band began to experience a lot of success in competitions, they decided to focus more on that aspect of the program. They stopped going to the away hs football games, thereby partially abandoning the original pep band purpose for which the group was formed. Also, they scorn participating in local or regional parades where they could bring happiness to the common man and glory to the school. For example, many people would love to see them in the annual Macy's Thanksgiving Parade. They're not interested. Consequently, the positive community feeling toward the marching band is diminishing a bit.</p>