Stanford and Pomona

Hey! I just have a couple of questions about the two schools (as I have been recently offered a spot at both) and hope I can find varying perspectives.

  1. I am currently interested in majoring in economics and/or computer science. I was wondering whether Stanford’s location (near Silicon Valley)/name recognition would really be that much more advantageous to me than what Pomona can offer. http://www.pomona.edu/administration/career-development/files/where-grads-go-2013.pdf has some info about where Pomona grads go. And this for where Stanford grads go: https://studentaffairs.stanford.edu/cdc/identify/alumni-where-grads-work . Do you think the differences are major?

  2. While I’m looking for a challenging environment, I am not looking for a stressful environment and one that will overload me with school work. I think that the semester system at Pomona will live up this expectation more than Stanford’s quarter system, but if you believe that I may be wrong about that let me know! I am very serious about leaving time for out-of-school activities/learning.

  3. Going along with the second question, I am not a good fit for a college that fosters nasty competition between students. From what I have heard I don’t believe that either college has this, but let me know if this isn’t true.

I would also like to mention that I am going to both schools’ admitted students weekends, so if you have any recommendations about how I should to approach them I’m all ears.

I’d also love to hear about people’s personal experience (or if you have links to articles/blogs about this please share them with me).

I’ll be adding more questions as they come up!

  1. Know that if you come to Stanford, you will have an unparalleled direct pipeline to Silicon Valley.

Freshman year, I took CS106A, which is Stanford’s famous intro CS course. The professor, Mehran Sahami, was among the first employees at Google (originally google.stanford.edu; as I type this, I am sitting next to the Lego box that Larry Page and Sergey Bring used to store one of Google’s initial servers) and is responsible for Gmail’s spam filter. The last class of the quarter was taught by Mark Zuckerberg. Eric Roberts, my professor for CS106B, helped Bill Gates and Paul Allen start Microsoft when he was a PhD student in Applied Math at Harvard and was the primary mentor for Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer (also a Stanford grad). Julie Zelenski, my CS107 lecturer, worked very closely with Steve Jobs first at NEXT and later at Apple. Jerry Cain, my CS110 lecturer, invented Facebook’s “Like” button. Don Knuth, the father of modern computer science, is an emeritus professor in the Stanford CS department. You could name almost anyone who helped establish the field of modern computer science, and I could likely stand up from my current seat and take a short walk to that person’s office. Being a CS student at Stanford is like being a geometer living in the time of Euclid: you can go talk to the people who invented major portions of your field.

One of my primary non-academic engagements is being a section leader for the CS106s (A, B, and X). All undergrads can apply to do this once they’ve completed CS106B. There are numerous companies that hire interns and full-timers directly off of the list of section leaders. My CS106B section leader guaranteed that my resume would be closely reviewed by a recruiter at Twitter (instead of being thrown in a pile of emails with all the other resumes), where he worked the summer prior to having me in section. In short, connections like these that a person makes at Stanford are invaluable. As a Stanford CS student at a career fair, many companies are actually competing for you.

  1. I cannot speak to a comparison between the semester system and the quarter system, as I go to Stanford and therefore have never experienced the semester system. To your concern about “leaving time for out-of-school activities/learning,” I can say that many Stanford students devote about as much time to their extracurriculars as they do to their schoolwork. Most people here definitely don’t do school work all of the time. As Stanford President John Hennessy has said, it is a very “work hard, play hard” kind of environment.

  2. I have never witnessed any form of outwardly-expressed, interpersonally competitive behavior as an undergraduate at Stanford. In fact, I would go so far as to say that such behavior is frowned upon here.

You can read about my personal experiences at Stanford elsewhere on this forum.

Thank you @aleaiactaest for the elaborate response! I have two questions for you if you wouldn’t mind (or anyone else that wants to answer them):

  1. Do you believe that it is possible to double major in economics and computer science or are these two majors too time-consuming and perhaps students should opt for a major & a minor instead?
  2. Do you believe that the quarter system allows you to sufficiently explore topics in class (I’m not talking exclusively about CS but other classes like writing or philosophy), or does it sometimes (or often) feel rushed? Let me know what you think and what you have heard from your peers about this!

I appreciate you for taking time to answer these questions!

  1. An Econ and CS double major would be hard. As you can see in this chart:

http://exploredegrees.stanford.edu/undergraduatemajorunitreq/#text

Econ requires at least 80 units, and CS requires at least 96 units. That mean’s that you’ll be spending approximately all of the 180 units required for the undergraduate degree on your majors. You’ll have little (if any) time to explore other areas, and going abroad or to Washington DC during the school year will be hard. Having said all of this, though, I do know people who are doing this double major. They typically take 18 to 20 units per quarter, whereas the average Stanford student takes about 15 units per quarter. This means that they’re busier than average with academic work.

  1. Except for the first week of classes, it always feels rushed. Most classes do not spend a “sufficient” amount of time on most topics. In fact, for any given class that you take, there is probably another class that spends the entire quarter on one topic from that class. For example, CS103 (Mathematical Foundations of Computing, which is part of the CS core) covers Logic, Compilers, Algorithmic Analysis, and some applications of discrete math to cybersecurity (among other topics) in 10 weeks. To spend an entire quarter on any one of these topics in particular, you can take Phil 151, CS161, and CS155. Another example: Math 51 covers the basics of linear algebra in 6 weeks, so for a complete, quarter-long course on linear algebra you need to take Math 113. You should also know that some professors attempt to cover a semester’s worth of material in a quarter. For example, Econ 1 covers both Microeconomics and Macroeconomics in one quarter, whereas (I think) these are distinct classes at universities that are on the semester system.

Having said all of this, I cannot say that we feel more rushed than students at semester system schools, as I’ve never attended such a school. I can say, though, that when I do some reflection after a quarter, I’m usually amazed by how much I’ve learned in just 10 weeks. In CS106A, for example, you go from knowing nothing about programming to building a miniature version of Facebook in 10 weeks. The quarter system also gives you the opportunity to take more classes (12 per year versus 8 per year, on average) than students at semester system schools.

You may not need to take 180 units because some of courses can be used for both majors as the “non-core” requirements. My son double majored similar to CS/Econ, and actually he almost triple majored had Stanford not said that he could not use the same courses too many times for the different majors.

It was certainly not easy for him to do so, but he was benefit greatly from it. Now he is undecided to either stay at Google or go for a join program of CS MS/MBA as he was recently accepted by Stanford GSB and CS.

He did not major in CS when he was a undergrad, and as matter of fact he only took those two intro CS courses for the requirement of his majors.

There are many ways you can do well at Stanford.

@aleaiactaest I really do appreciate your responses. So I’m going to ask another question. Knowing that classes at Stanford are generally larger than at small liberal arts colleges, do you feel like the attention (deficit) from professors detracts from how much you learn? Are there smaller sections which make it easier to learn? A professor’s attention is more important to me in the humanities/social sciences than in the other general areas of study, so let me know what your experience was like in those classes(?)

Also, I have been looking for the course requirements for all undergrads for days now and cannot find anything. Is there a link you can share?

Thank you again!

“do you feel like the attention (deficit) from professors detracts from how much you learn?”

No. Wherever you go to college, you’ll teach yourself most of what you need to know for any given class, even if it’s a seminar. There’s simply too much to cover everything in class. When my friends and I recently looked at our Stanford admission reader sheets, we laughed at the fact that while our files had scores in categories like “Testing” and “Intellectual Vitality,” they should have had an “Autodidact” category since self-teaching is such an important skill in college. In general, the amount of effort you’re willing to put into learning is the primary determinant of how much you’ll learn. For example, you could daydream during a seminar and not learn anything but pay attention in lecture and learn everything. I don’t think that large lectures per se detract from learning, but I do think that some of the consequences of large lectures (i.e., sitting far away from a professor in a huge lecture hall with lots of students) lead to tendencies that are not conducive to learning (i.e., web-surfing during lecture). That said, there are many things that you can do to improve your learning in lecture, so much so that a large lecture begins to feel like a seminar. For example, I always sit in the very front row of all of my large lecture classes. This is a great way not just to stay focused but also for the professor to get to know me in spite of the course’s size. It’s a bit difficult to ignore someone you always see in the front row. Also, many professors incorporate sample problems in lecture that the entire class discusses amongst itself. For some classes, you need to input your responses to these questions in a “clicker”, which is a device that tracks your answers and allows the professor to give you credit for attending lecture. While students are working out the answers to these questions, the professor will ofter walk around the lecture hall and check in on students’ progress. This attests to the fact that professors in large lectures are not apathetic about their students’ learning. Another thing I do to make a large lecture class feel “smaller” is to go to the professor’s office hours. If you go to office hours at the right time (i.e., early in the morning), you have a pretty high chance of having a one-on-one discussion with the professor, and the discussion doesn’t have to just be about the course. Most professors are professors in large part because they love helping students, not just with coursework but also with general life/career advice. Furthermore, many professors in large lecture classes clearly pour their heart and soul into the class. This is especially true in the intro classes. For example, Autumn Quarter I took CS103 with a fabulous lecturer named Keith Schwarz. The class had about 300 people in it. Despite its size, I emailed Keith with a question and he responded to me in less than a minute. One of my friends emailed the professor for CS106A the day before the midterm exam, and he answered within minutes despite CS106A having over 600 students. As you can see, you can really make a large class feel pretty small if you do the right things. In general, at Stanford you are limited only by your motivation.

“Are there smaller sections which make it easier to learn?”

Most large lecture classes have some form of smaller section that meets every week to go over the material from lecture. I am a section leader for CS106A/B/X, Stanford’s three intro programming courses. Each of these classes has three lectures per week, and in addition to attending lecture, students also attend section for an hour once a week. Each section contains about 10 students and a section leader. During section, we just do programming problems as a group, and students can ask the section leader any questions about the material. Your section leader also grades all of your assignments, providing individualized feedback in the form of a 10-minute conference on each assignment. There is even a room at Stanford called the Computer LAIR which is staffed with section leaders from Sunday through Thursday (typically until about 2 am). Any student in the CS106s can easily come to the LAIR with questions about any assignment.

Sections are not just limited to CS. There are sections for Physics, Math, and most other classes (including Humanities/Social Science classes). Most large classes also have very elaborate support systems like the LAIR. Physics, for example, has the Physics Tutoring Center. Classes that don’t have sections usually have a cohort of TAs who hold office hours throughout the week. If you have any questions about the course, you can just go to office hours. Or as I said above, you could just go to the professor directly. In fact, last week I had questions on a problem set, and instead of going to office hours, I just asked the professor after class. She stayed behind for about 30 minutes to help me, which was very gracious.

“A professor’s attention is more important to me in the humanities/social sciences than in the other general areas of study, so let me know what your experience was like in those classes(?)”

Again, what you get out is what you put in. You will learn a lot if you put effort into paying attention in lecture, and you will get to know the professor if you sit in the front and go to office hours. As far as the social sciences specifically are concerned, last year I took a PoliSci class taught by the chief advisor to the Romney campaign, and she knew not just my name but also everyone else’s name. She even Skyped with every student at least twice during the quarter, and this was a 100-person class. In general, getting the attention of professors is less of a problem in the humanities/social science classes because they typically aren’t as big as the STEM classes. Some classes even have enrollment caps. Condoleezza Rice’s class is, I think, capped at about 20 students. She reads all of the students’ essays/work in that class.

“Also, I have been looking for the course requirements for all undergrads for days now and cannot find anything. Is there a link you can share?”

All Stanford students need to fulfill the WAYS:

https://undergrad.stanford.edu/programs/ways/ways

There is also a Thinking Matters requirement:

https://undergrad.stanford.edu/programs/thinking-matters

And the PWR (i.e., writing) requirement:

https://undergrad.stanford.edu/programs/pwr

And lastly the language requirement, which you can fulfill with an AP test:

https://web.stanford.edu/dept/lc/language/requirement/

Note that you can do the SLE program during your freshman year and knock out most of these requirements in one fell swoop:

https://undergrad.stanford.edu/programs/residential-programs/sle

This program would put you in close contact with some of the best humanities scholars in the world, many of whom love SLE students and want to help them become the next generation of great scholars.

I wasn’t the one who asked this question, but this is extremely helpful, @aleaictaest—many thanks again! For a prospective CS major, how many units would you recommend taking each year? Would taking fewer the first year, to leave enough time to adjust to college and get to know people, make sense, and if so, how many units would still be reasonable? Is there a maximum number of technical/hard courses you’d recommend taking per quarter—for example, two of those plus maybe a course in the social sciences and another in the humanities?

@Planner Glad that I can help!

“For a prospective CS major, how many units would you recommend taking each year?”

It depends. The average number of units that Stanford students take per quarter is 15. This equates to about 3 solid classes, meaning that it is enough to keep you busy but not enough to really overwork you (unless, perhaps, those 3 classes are all really hard CS classes…). Also, 15 units x 12 undergraduate quarters = the 180 units required to graduate, so this unit load keeps people on track to graduate in time. To answer your question, then, it’s good to take around 45 units (i.e., 15 x 3) per year. That said, there are definitely some exceptions to this (see my answers below). As I mentioned earlier, you can also knock out lots of units with AP credit.

“Would taking fewer the first year, to leave enough time to adjust to college and get to know people, make sense, and if so, how many units would still be reasonable?”

Most of my friends and I would encourage taking fewer units freshman year, particularly during Autumn Quarter. It’s often said that adjusting to college is itself a 3-unit class. I personally didn’t take this advice (i.e., I loaded up Autumn Quarter freshman year), which is something that I now regret. I would say that you should not take more than 15 units Autumn Quarter freshman year. It would even be okay to take as few as 12 or 13 units (i.e., two solid classes and one small seminar that’s less work, which we call IntroSems). Since your son is interested in CS, I recommend that at the bare minimum he take the following classes during freshman year: CS106A during Autumn Quarter (5 units), CS106B or X during Winter Quarter (5 units), and CS107 during Spring Quarter (5 units). This will keep him on-track for a CS major. Note that he should skip straight to CS106B or X if he has prior programming experience equivalent to AP CS. He will also need to taking a Thinking Matters class (4 units) and a PWR class (5 units) at some point during freshman year, usually in different quarters.

“Is there a maximum number of technical/hard courses you’d recommend taking per quarter—for example, two of those plus maybe a course in the social sciences and another in the humanities?”

Yes. That’s the short answer. The longer answer is that it depends. In general, I would recommend no more than two STEM classes in any given quarter. Also, if he takes two CS classes, one of them should be a programming class (i.e., a class with programming assignments) and the other should be a problem-set class. I would not recommend taking two programming classes in any given quarter. You should also be advised that neither all classes nor all units are created equal. For example, CS107 and CS106B are both 5 units, but CS107 takes considerably more time and effort than CS106B. In fact, CS107 has a reputation for being a very time-consuming class (20-25 hours per week), so students are strongly advised to take CS107 with an otherwise light class load (maybe even with no other math/science classes). Some of my friends took both CS107 and CS103 (Mathematical Foundations of Computing) simultaneously and found themselves overworked, even though CS107 is a programming class and CS103 is a problem-set class. As another example of under-uniting: CS140 (Operating Systems Programming) is a mere 4 units but has a reputation for being one of the most time-consuming CS classes at Stanford. This is another class that should be taken with an otherwise light load.

Keep in mind that these are general rules of thumb and do not apply to everyone. I definitely know people who can handle three or more CS classes in a quarter, and one’s ability to take more CS classes simultaneously increases as one gains more experience with CS.

Many, many thanks again, @aleaiactaest! I’m saving all this great advice in a document for him. He has taken AP CS and a couple of other programming classes, so it sounds like he’d be fine starting off with CS106B. It’s interesting that the units don’t always correspond to the amount of time the course ends up taking, as with CS140. Do the units ever get adjusted for the next year based on student feedback? Is there any kind of book or website that provides student reviews of individual courses and professors at Stanford?

@Planner Units don’t seem like their adjusted for any courses, lol. You just see the usual 3-5 units for classes, and 1-2 units for extracurricular kinds of classes (sports, recreation).

coursecycle.com is a website that I use extensively to look at class reviews.

EDIT: I’m one of those kids @aleaiactaest mentioned that took CS107 and CS103 at the same time. They’re not joking–I was literally either working on 107 or 103, and had little time to work on my other class, Psych 1. But to each their own; some people have much heavier courseloads and hit the max 20 units per quarter, so workload in general will just depend on what class it is and how well it’s taught.

Thanks, @thehaakun! coursecycle.com looks like exactly what I was hoping to find, and I’ll definitely warn my son about taking CS107 and CS103 at the same time!