People have walked away from Duke’s Robertson scholarship for schools like HYPS.
I think contrary to popular believe, most average people do not talk about where their kids go to school to their friends or colleagues at work. I think other than CC, and with parents with similar age kids, topic of college rarely comes up with people I know.
@oldfort. Of course. You are right about that and it does occur. And no one at work talks about it except when going through the process or we ask how kids are doing at x school to be friendly. No one cares.
And in some cases it might make sense to not choose the prestigious scholarship for the perceived extra boost an hypsm does for you.
Every situation is different. In this one with no specific research angle or preference it’s tough to say. I’m working off a 600k need and 200k saved. And child 5 years from starting. Nearly an overlap.
And skipping Robertson and Duke for Harvard at full pay unless completely cost agnostic or hated duke culturally makes zero sense to me.
“People have walked away from Duke’s Robertson scholarship for schools like HYPS”
Indeed. That is even harder to understand (unless you have 8 figures in liquid net worth or want to continue a legacy at one of HYPS or something).
Can’t find the original link but this:
http://mathacle.blogspot.com/2013/05/dukes-scholarship-yields-reflect.html?m=1
No offense to Duke.
I’m admittedly biased, but the Stanford experience is just plain fabulous. It’s a genuinely “happy” place in a way that’s hard to describe. The alumni network is very strong. Any graduate can make the wonderful and unparalleled Stanford Sierra Camp a regular part of his or her family’s life (and undergraduates can work there.) Alumni events happen locally and throughout the nation and world, and alums can attend various Stanford-affiliated retreats in the Sierras. The campus is beautiful, the Bay Area’s intellectual atmosphere is amazing, its cultural diversity (hearing multiple languages literally everyday on the street; regularly befriending people from around the world) is fantastic. The surfing beaches and world-class ski resorts are both within driving distance, and the San Francisco Symphony and Ballet and more are even closer. The personal and institutional connections are lifelong. I would (and did) take on debt to attend. I never regretted it. And with a ~4% undergraduate admission rate these days, I wouldn’t ever recommend someone turn it down unless his or her dream was elsewhere. That said, no one can make this decision for you or for your child, and one person’s opinion (including mine) is just that. Good luck! I look forward to hearing the final choice!
@CardinalBobcat Just to be clear. No one I’ve seen on this thread or at least myself, ever thought Stanford isn’t off the charts.
It’s the clearly one of the finest schools on the West Coast and nationally in many respects. Along with Caltech and some others. And maybe the best in the whole country.
And all you say is 100 percent valid.
If this were just about anywhere vs Stanford for the same price and access. Stanford wins. If it’s 50 percent more. It’s a closer call. But Stanford wins.
When it’s 100 percent more and is missing the National access and on campus resources/treatment a Stamps scholar gets - now we are talking about something different.
If the parent has money to burn and no other child to educate. Stanford in a toss up.
In this scenario, it’s Wake for me.
And as a future something important, I hope you can use your intellect to step back and look at the totality of things. The long range view and be objective. If you do this with intellectual honesty and still come back with a Stanford, it’s a no brainer. We will agree to disagree but I will respect that. If it’s because you love it and it’s great for you. That’s not conclusive.
The selection committee would do better with donut hole families - not eligible for FA, but can’t afford full fare. HYPS offer very good FA relative to other schools.
Going back to the Duke Robertson vs. HYPS, frankly, even if money wasn’t an issue, I’d take the Duke Robertson (so only continuing a legacy would induce me to pass up the Duke Robertson).
Let’s look at a program similar to the WFU Stamps (but with more history): The UNC Morehead-Cain.
Since 2000, the UNC Morehead cohorts have averaged roughly 1 Rhodes Scholar a year with entering classes 1/25th the size of Stanford’s. Stanford would have to produce 25 Rhodes Scholars a year to match on a per capita basis. Stanford does not produce 25 Rhodes Scholars a year. None of HYPSM do.
BTW, if we’re going around comparing acceptance rates, evidently the Morehead-Cain has a 3.4% acceptance rate.
It’s probably even smaller for the WFU Stamps as I believe each school only has a handful of Stamps Scholars.
Didn’t read the whole thread. My two cents is the people who don’t believe in full pay for a top school, never went to one and saw the doors it opens. Over time, the increase in income from the better school ( not only first job but subsequent jobs pays for the better college education
). In many cases, it can pay for the better school in ten years. Again, not looking to get into a long discussion about single individuals. For the most part, a better school just greases the wheels.
Yes, a strong student can do well anywhere. But say you went to Stanford and you can get jobs others cannot, which are often in lucrative fields. Second thing to consider, grad school matters but again Wake forest is not going to be as impressive as Stanford to AO. Still, you have $$ saved and good options. Just talk to someone who actually went to Stanford and graduated years ago and ask if they think they could have taken the same route by going to a school like Wake Forest. In some cases, the answer will be yes and in many it will be a resounding no.
@privatebanker I hear you. Again, as someone who personally took on significant debt to attend Stanford two decades ago, with absolutely no regrets, I don’t need to “step back” very far to evaluate the totality of the situation. Mine is just one perspective, and the OP is asking for multiple perspectives – fortunately without the need for us all to form a consensus. I am glad others have shared their knowledge about the Stamps program and offered wisdom of all kinds regarding finances. I can only offer my own $0.02 to the OP, which hopefully is helpful in the overall mix of excellent information provided here.
@PurpleTitan Yes, I’m sure those stats are all valid re: other scholarships. But how many people know those stats outside of CC? How many hiring managers care a hoot that you had a Stamps scholarship or any other at UNC? Outside of a Rhodes scholarship, none of these merits are well known in the sense that they are going to open doors. Great you get to be the best of the best at a school that isn’t the best. I’m not sure that gives you as much as a university with a world wide reputation. I personally wouldn’t send my kids off to the best scholarship at a lesser school unless the school had a better program in the chosen major.
I went to a state school and Ivy for grad. Wife and fil are Harvard grads. I’m only one poster but sorry your point isn’t accurate.
And i work on a day to day basis with some of the most academically accomplished and financially otherworldly people on the planet. What you say is partially true. But your premise is wrong.
I would say to be completely honest. That Private equity and consulting it matters where you went UG But it isn’t just hpysm. The elite group is bit longer of a list than this in real life. It is also impressive upfront to go an Ivy or hpysm. And a real head turner when the new guy or gal shows up. Not saying it isn’t impressive.
But after two minutes you are on your own.
And all other industries it has no long term bearing whatsoever.
However hpysm for Professional schools do come up a lot including stern and duke level for b schools. But most executives have already been spotted as a talent and apply some years into their career.
Med school and law school no one really cares where you went undergrad. And you can get into any great med or law school from pretty much anywhere in the top 100 or 200.
I don’t want list presidential colleges again. But other than the bush cohort it’s a big zero for hpysm undergrad back to LBJ. I can also list current presidential hopefuls. Even the one who can’t be named started at Fordham before Wharton.
As far as Fortune 500 CEOs. Undergrad Ivy is a resl outlier. You as easily find way more Tim Cook from Auburn stories than a Jeff Bezos from Princeton.
Someone must have opened a door for them too? Or they helped open it themselves. Probably a little of both.
And in this example we are taking about an elite and highly selective school. With a vibrant alumni network etc. I’m awake Forest.
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@CardinalBobcat Cool. But selection bias and personalization are a thing too. I am only obeserving from afar with a few more years under my belt than you but respect your opinion. I attended neither and don’t know the OP. Either way is great call. Just not as easy to say when your writing a check for multiple kids and retirement facing you down.
You’ll hopefully see one day. But I do appreciate the insight from your perspective too.
@happy times, not only did I go to a top school, but 11 members of my family also attended that same HYPSM (yes, we have paid way too much tuition in the last 50 years). And I would still say the differences between the schools in question are negligible, and not worth the cost difference. And yes, I also knew friends who accepted UNC Morehouse and turned down HYP, and were very happy. There are just a handful of PE and hedge funds, and perhaps MBB in consulting, which would care at all, and the Stamps scholarship would override any concerns those firms would have. Both are fine schools with great outcomes possible from either-and those same family members who now work at MBB and in PE from HYPSM agree with me.
@cardinalbobcat, I am glad you enjoyed Stanford. It is a great school. But like all schools, it has changed greatly in the last few years, particularly with the techie vs fuzzy tensions on campus. The undergrad women I know there currently are generally fairly satisfied with their choice, but it is no nirvana for them. I expect the same is true at WF. Our golden memories of undergrad in a different century don’t have much value to those assessing their options today.
“My two cents is the people who don’t believe in full pay for a top school, never went to one and saw the doors it opens.”
I went to one, I know it opens doors, I still see it in my work all the time. But I also see from my D’s program how much a cohort based full ride at a lower ranking school offers in that regard too. And it comes with money in the bank afterwards (enough for a large down payment on a house or to pay for a Stanford MBA if that’s your thing). Has anyone asked the student if they actually want to be forced to work in “lucrative fields” to accumulate that money?
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@roycroftmom, thanks for offering this perspective about current techy vs fuzzy tensions. Personally, although I am indeed decades past my own university days, I’m still involved on campus and know many current undergraduates. I’m glad we can all offer diverse perspectives to the OP, which is what is being asked of us. Most of my comments were focused on the regional benefits and the alumni opportunities, and I also stand by my remarks about the positive campus culture. But not everyone needs to say the same thing or feel the same way, and that’s the real benefit of a discussion thread asking for people’s thoughts and advice. Hopefully, when everyone’s input is offered, the OP will feel that the various bits and pieces we’ve all provided will help make a difficult decision a bit clearer.
OP here. I’ve been tempted to jump in a few times, but I don’t want to mess up the exchange of ideas. I sincerely appreciate both sides of the argument presented and great anecdotes that have been shared.
A few people have mentioned my younger child. She is a great kid that is her own person. Her grades are good, but much more in line with a “typical smart kid”. Our son has been extremely impressive since he could talk. They’re just different. So I would be surprised if she seeks out a national university.
Thanks again for the awesome dialog. I will certainly provide updates as they become available.
My $.02:
First of all what a wonderful problem to have – congrats to your son!
As to the question at hand, my answer is: It depends on your unique situation and your son’s future plans.
If your son is planning to go to law school or med school, it probably doesn’t matter as much where he gets his undergraduate degree. He may well want to save the money for his future studies. If the money is not going to make a huge difference in your lifestyle, affect your retirement, or limit your other children’s educational options, Stanford is an amazing place and I’d choose it in a heartbeat over the Stamps at Wake.
My daughter had a similarly difficult choice – while perhaps not a full ride, she was offered full tuition scholarships from such schools as Wash U. in St Louis, Vanderbilt, USC (California), Grinnell, etc. and turned them all down to attend Stanford at nearly full pay. She is over the moon there and we are blown away by the opportunities she has had; she doesn’t regret her decision for a second and neither do we.
That said, D is an only child so there are no other children to send to college. Retirement will be covered through savings and a generous pension plan (a rarity these days!). We are comfortably upper middle class (what might be described as “donut hole” family on CC.) Income-wise, we are certainly not in the top 1 or 2 percent, but probably in the top 10%. Stanford is a sacrifice, but one we would gladly do again if given the option.
I disagree with @privatebanker’s assertion that one will have “the same exact (and I mean exact) grad schools to choose from” and that the choice only matters if the goal is just undergraduate school. My D, for example. plans to pursue a PhD in the humanities. In academia – unlike law and med school or MBA programs – where you get your degree from matters a LOT if you want to get into a prestigious doctoral program (pretty much a necessity if you want to succeed in her chosen field of study) or get important research grants and fellowships.
My D absolutely did NOT want to be a big fish in a small pond – she wanted to be in a place with a LOT of really smart students and professors…Her HS experience didn’t provide the level of intellectual engagement or social environment that she craved at that she found when she was at TASP. She has found it in spades at Stanford! Do I think that my daughter have been equally happy at USC or Vanderbilt than she is at Stanford?
To be honest, there are few things in life that live up to their hype. Stanford is truly one of them.
Can a person succeed in life equally well with either choice? Absolutely! There are no bad choices here.
@roycroftmom and @CardinalBobcat - Yes, there is a big fuzzy/techie divide, but what my D has found is that lots of techie types are also quite artsy and do not denigrate the humanities. She is finding tremendous support among the faculty and with her fellow students. Stanford has some of the top humanities programs in the country – certainly on a par with HYP. And the fact that so few students go to Stanford specifically to study the humanities and want no part of a STEM program, the faculty is incredibly supportive and accessible (the head of the department offered for my daughter to do a 2-quarter independent study with him her freshman year!)
Stanford has been making a concerted effort to beef up its arts programming. Having already achieved a reputation of being a leader in STEM fields, it wants to build on its arts programming and is putting some real $$ into them through its well though out “Arts Initiative.”