The bottom line is if you take away the money factor, which college is the better “fit” for your son long term?
Maybe I am in the minority here but the 4 years of college at an elite school like Stanford stays with you the rest of life and is not just about “prestige; the quality of peers, faculty best in class, top 10 programs, and alumni connections is incredible. These colleges were meant to have students like OP’s son attend and there is a reason a 2nd tier college like Wake is throwing a bunch of money at this same kid.
@socaldad2002 Totally agree. But the missing point is perhaps someone from Cali might not understand that Wake is also an elite school. With nearly the same exact type of student quality and atmospherics.
@privatebanker that’s my point, if the scholarship is taken away which college would the student choose and why? If Wake is just as good (or better) than Stanford than it’s an easy decision.
The other great question is if Stanford gave the student a full ride and he was full pay at Wake, would he choose to still attend Wake? Why not if they are equally elite colleges?
@socaldad2002 LOL! Wake Forest is NOT a second tier college and Stanford for sure is not $300K better than the opportunity at WF. This is one brilliant kid who will do well no matter where they go. By the end of the day, only the OP knows their financial situation and perhaps the $300K difference is meaningless. If that is the case, they know the answer to the question.
Wake Forest is not in the same tier as Stanford, and that is precisely why they try to attract high caliber students with merit aid. WF is #27 and Stanford is #1 or 2.
It comes down to fit and other intangible factors and intended major. If you want CS or engineering, go to Stanford. For Business or Communication or undecided, and if you can see yourself happy at WF, go there and save the money.
Please do come back and give us an update.
Wake is certainly a good school (some call it “Work Forest”, lol), but I am not sure I’d use the word “elite” to describe it. It is a very pretty campus, but a completely different feel than Stanford. Where are you from, OP? Is religion an issue? For instance, a Jewish student might not feel as comfortable at Wake. My. DS #2 felt this way and didn’t consider it. Just a FYI.
the logic that causes Duke to be eliminated for full ride at wake but not Stanford, makes no logical sense. The same logic should apply. investment banking/Venture capital might be the one area to still use logic for, but outside of that, similar logic of Duke vs. Wake should apply
April events for admitted students might help shape your decision. You should also take deeper dives into a few selected majors at both schools. Look for differences/similarities in several of the areas commonly raised on CC: depth and breadth of classes, class availability, faculty strength, ease of changing majors, and ability to engage with meaningful research.
As illustrated in an earlier post in this thread, even the A.B. Duke scholarship at Duke University only had 8 takers out of 22 offers in 2012. The A.B. Duke scholarship is designed to get exceptional students to attend Duke rather than Harvard, Stanford, Princeton or, possibly, Yale & MIT.
Wake Forest University is an excellent school. The issue is whether or not the Stamps Scholarship will open up as many or, at least, enough doors as Stanford University for one for whom money is not a significant concern.
First off I think it’s appropriate to not call Wake “elite” and is certainly a 2nd tier college if we are looking at the very top colleges in the U.S. (i.e. they are not Top 10 or even Top 25). Let’s take emotion out of it and look at the following:
Stanford:
Ranked Top 5 in the U.S. by pretty much everyone’s standards.
World Ranking: #3 (Times Higher Education)
1 in Psychology, Environmental Science (Niche)
2 Biology, Computer Science, Economics, International Relations
4 Math, Communications
5 English
7 Political Science
10 Best Professors
2 Hardest Colleges to Get Into
2 Best Colleges in America
2 Best Value Colleges
4% acceptance rate (one of the lowest in the nation)
ACT Score 32-35
Wake Forest
Ranked #45 in the U.S. (Niche) and #62 (Times Higher Education)
World Ranking #251-300 (Times Higher Education
3 Best colleges for Kinesiology & Physical Therapy. (Niche)
No other Top 10 rankings
28% acceptance rate
ACT Score 28-32
Again, if the cost to both colleges was the same, would this even be a discussion?
All I can add to this discussion is to say that 30 years after I graduated people are still impressed that I went to Stanford. People make snap judgements-- they shouldn’t but they do – and it’s nice to be pigeonholed as smart/impressive/whatever they think. Similarly, no one is impressed with my undergraduate institution, even though I’m obviously the same person who went to both.
As everyone has said, there really isn’t a wrong answer here.
Someone upstream mentioned religion regarding fit, a Jewish kid not being comfortable etc. I think those stereotypes are vastly overstated. Full disclosure - we are Jewish and S attends Wake. He is very happy and very comfortable. There is actually a decent size Jewish population on campus. Although S doesn’t attend many faith based events, Hillel is quite active. I did see a picture of S posted by Hillel last Passover as he attended their Sedar. I was actually in shock he attended until I saw the young lady he was sitting next to… and then he told me “she made me go…” I get it sonny boy!
Anyway, very inclusive community. No worries there.
There are 48000 seats available in the USA for the entirety of all schools with less than a 30 percent acceptance rate. There are 3.3mm grads and 2.4mm college aspirants.
Obviously both Stanford and Wake are in this small pool of highly selective schools.
Aka elite.
If the top 2% of all students in the USA aren’t elite then we have big problems. And nice way to view the other 98 percent of students. They must be Neanderthals.
Stanford grads above all should understand statistics.
So are Stanford students a half percent “more elite” than wake. If such a thing exists. Perhaps. But we are comparing to a population here when saying a school is elite or not.
Yes navy seals maybe on average more elite than special forces. But both are elite compared to the armed services population.
And a Stamps scholar at Wake Forest is not only special forces but more akin to a delta unit. Just as elite as any navy seal.
And the duke scholars comparison makes no sense. We don’t know where they went and hpysm maybe with great financial aid. Or parents where the cost is a rounding error.
In this case, with this family it’s a great option to look at Wake.
Second tier. How elitist and misguided in terms of the long arc of life. And the inumerable accomplishments of the students and professors.
And the selection bias is palpable.
No one is diminishing the achievement or status of another by offering good practical advice.
Just for fun, if OP thinks Wall Street/IB/consulting may be in the student’s future plans, s/he should post this question on the forums section of Wall Street Oasis. I think the results would be eye-opening to many people.
^ Actually, I know what they’ll say because I’ve posted that in different forms at different times on WSO (S is looking at Corp Banking or Consulting, not IB - has IB workshops on campus all the time). Using the context of target, semi-target and non target I asked the question: What is good placement? WSO IBers go on and on about placement, target schools, etc… Per Wake’s First Destination Report, year over year, out of roughly 200 finance and econ majors, banking takes about 50 - 60 kids. Most of these are front office BB IB jobs (More NYC than Charlotte). Some regionals but several BBs. The WSO audience told me that was great placement and that Wake does well on the street, just doesn’t get the at bats of, say, UVA. The further north you go, the better. I can tell from S’s experience, the alumni reach is there, and yese, he’ll need to network more than the kid from NYU or Wharton or Harvard but it’s still doable measured by 50 -60 do it each year. Consulting is tougher primarily because it’s a smaller universe (fewer shops).
In case you’re not familiar with Wake Forest, its PhD programs consist of a half dozen tiny programs in the sciences. Last year Wake produced 30 PhD students, whereas Stanford graduated 530 PhDs in STEM fields alone. One may as well compare Berkeley to Dartmouth or Wesleyan and bash the latter for their comparative lack of top 10 graduate programs.
Wake is really more of an overgrown liberal arts college with some attached professional schools than a major research university. As I’ve pointed out before, a mere 1% of classes at Wake have more than 50 students – a smaller percentage than at many of the top LACs such as Middlebury (1.3%), Williams (2%), Bowdoin (2.2%), Swarthmore (2.7%), Amherst (2.8%), Wesleyan (3%), and Harvey Mudd (4%).
@socaldad2002 If they were all “free” as you mention, I think for most, but not all people would choose Stanford, over pretty much every school except for HYPM and Caltech. But not all. The vast majority would choose Stanford any other school by comparison. But some would choose others for various reasons.
But this scenario is not cost agnostic. And very few scenarios are with today’s educational price tags. And even less people are as fortunate as this family with significant savings and high income. Imagine the vast majority in the donut hole.
Would you go into debt or as in this situation - prevent you from purchasing the second important item down the road - for the free but nearly as good item.
Mercedes Benz SL 550. 110k. Ranked number one in all its categories. Status symbol. Beautiful and known outcome of a tremendous vehicle.
Mercedes Benz E550. 70k. Same reliability regarding its ability to get you to the intended destination. Not quite as good. Not quite the same status level.
Both elite cars. Compared to one’s 200k miles used whatever car.
Of course the s class is more desirable.
But what if the brand new e550 was completely free. And they would throw in some people to help you drive?
Kind of silly to buy car one in my honest opinion.
Especially since it’s about the driver ultimately and not the car to get you where you want to go in life. And sure maybe a few connections and s class enthusiasts will open a toll road for you once in a while. But not worth it when you have the abiiity to open the gate yourself.
Sounds like some think Wake Forest is a great place. And some think the $'s worth the Stanford diploma. What I always think about when paying tuition is, what kind of a thinker is my kid becoming? Is my kid getting an education that suits him/her. Are they being stretched. What kind of kids are in the classroom with mine? How did they get there? Let’s face it, not all kids go to school for intellectual rigor. Many go, else, they wouldn’t get a well paying job. Some go for other reasons.
It’s not elitist to get the best education for your child. Is the OP willing/able to pay for it? The numbers are huge. Sometimes I am willing to pay for expensive things and sometimes, I am not. OP will have to make the final calculation.