Stanford Sucks From a Stanford Graduate Student

<p>It's been a while since I've posted on CC. =)</p>

<p>I thought that thread title would catch more attention than this one The Importance of the Quality of Undergraduate Education. My friend and I were discussing the quality of education between Stanford (or any private, research-focused university) and UWash. This is what he said about it. Tell me what you guys think.</p>

<p>"A Stanford education - what does it mean? I contend that many people apply to Stanford primarily for the ability to say that they have a Stanford education on their resume. My problem with that, really, is that there are people here at Stanford who pay tens of thousands of dollars for tuition, and they are willing to invest that much money so that they can basically say in job interviews, parties, applications, etc, "Hey, I went to Stanford - I must be rich and smart and therefore will automagically have a greater chance of landing a good job position than if I went to a lowly state school!" Since our society places such a high value on education, seeing the name "Stanford University" is likely looked upon more favorably than an education at, say, University of Washington in general. And this is regardless of how well they performed academically. I have seen many people who utterly blow at organic chemistry and yet want to go to med school (hell, two have already asked me to write a letter of recommendation for them). And they will likely have a better chance of getting in because they come from Stanford rather than a state school. And I have a problem with that.</p>

<p>This is not to say that Stanford isn't a good school. It is. Other people (myself included) apply to Stanford because it is famous for providing a good, well-rounded education. I desperately wanted to go to Stanford as an undergraduate, but I don't have obscenely rich parents and am a white middle-class student so I couldn't afford to attend, much to my disappointment. I went to the University of Washington instead because it is also a good school. </p>

<p>One big problem I have with Stanford is that the chemistry department here provides, in my opinion, a terrible undergraduate education program. For instance, it is obvious that offering freshman chemistry in one quarter with no lab and throwing the students into organic chemistry as soon as possible serves to mercilessly weed out the weak students from the program as early as possible. In addition, the attitudes of many of the faculty members here towards undergraduates (and towards education in general) is pretty snarky and elitist, which can only be detrimental towards a student's success in the chemistry department. Furthermore, there are very few opportunities for the undergraduate to really take advantage of (as opposed to biology, which is why William is now a biology major rather than a chemistry one), and most of those opportunities are generally limited to summer research. Last, there are some serious deficiencies in the curriculum here - the lecture courses are decent, I think, but the laboratory courses are extremely poorly thought out, planned, and weak. The organic chemistry labs meet only once a week for four hours, and there isn't an inorganic chemistry lab at all (I don't know how students can call themselves chemistry graduates when they don't even know how to run a vacuum line!). The capacity for the chemistry department to even run a laboratory course is quite limited as all of the horribly outdated experiments are carried out on a lab table rather than in a hood, and there are less than 20 undergraduate labs, which is a pretty sorry state for a chemistry department at such a prestigious school. In general, I am very disappointed in the chemistry undergraduate education program here - I can probably say that the education I got at UW was better than the one the chem majors get here. As for the graduate program - it caters very nicely to the researchers here, but it caters quite poorly to those who are more interested in becoming teachers of chemistry because all of the TA opportunities are only offered in the first year. So how can Stanford possibly proudly support its chemistry department when it is in such a dismal state? </p>

<p>Another issue I have with Stanford is the specter of grade inflation. There is grade inflation everywhere, but the Stanford course curriculum has pretty much no oversight over consistency of grade assignments. For instance, most courses here at Stanford average out to a B, but there is one notable exception: Professor Trost's 131 course curves to a C average (which is what all courses should curve to anyway, in my opinion). So, my question is why Stanford curves to a higher average than a state school. William has an argument for this, but it doesn't make sense to me so I can't repeat it. My argument is this - the standards of schools everywhere should be consistent, and the reputation of Stanford as a school should speak for itself - a B at Stanford is likely much more difficult to earn than a B at a state school, for instance, if the averages are consistent. But there is no way to gauge a student's potential if the average at a Stanford chemistry course is a B whereas the average at the same course at UW is 2.6-2.8 (C, C+). If the student got a B at Stanford, that makes the student seem a lot smarter than if the same student got a B at UW - but, since a B is the average at Stanford, the student could very well have earned a C, it being the average at UW, for the same amount of work.</p>

<p>So, because of those three issues I pointed out, I have an issue with people who automatically think that a Stanford alumnus should be looked on more favorably than an alumnus from a less well-known (or even non-Ivy League) school. I agree with William, though, that Stanford has many excellent departments and deserves the reputation that it has. I think that a Stanford education is mostly worth the money that students spend for it (except if you're a chemistry major) because it offers a much broader range of disciplines to choose from and has a small class size for humanities courses, which is great. There are many, many opportunities here to take advantage of as a Stanford student, and I wish I had those opportunities as an UW student. I have seen some great professors here (mostly outside the department, but there are a couple of good apples in here) in my time here, and I have an excellent research advisor, which seems to be a rarity these days. But not everything about Stanford is as good as people claim."</p>

<p>I do think that it's unfair that certain schools get more weight regardless of the performance of the student when it comes to things like, say, resumes, but I've also heard different things regarding Stanford's chemistry department--I always take opinions with a grain of salt.</p>

<p>First, you assume that coming from state U or Podunk U automatically won't open as many doors than going to Stanford. I can assure you that if you attend a state uniiversity, you will have plenty of opportunities and job interviews IF you get at least a 3.5 GPA or better. Top grades do trump status schools in my opinion.</p>

<p>I did not attend a top ivy school but achieve a 3.7 overall GPA. I never was turned down for an interview anywhere I applied. </p>

<p>As for grade inflation, let's be honest. The average kid getting into Stanford or one of the ivys has, for the most part, much better test scores and GPAs. Thus, the competition is higher at these top school. The grading at these top schools does try to take this into account. Whether or not these top school over do it, however, is another question.</p>

<p>That's why I've always argued that for a proper UNDERGRADUATE education, you can't beat the top LACs and / or undergraduate focused Universities / Colleges, in particular:</p>

<p>Princeton / Dartmouth / Brown (Ivies)
Williams / Amherst / Swarthmore (LACs)</p>

<p>Large research U's are great for people who want an advanced degree in any particular field of study and / or those who aspire to attend a top professional grad school (Law, Med, Bus), in which case:</p>

<p>Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia, Penn, etc. etc. are great choices no question.</p>

<p>But for undergrad? Give me a school that focuses its faculty, core resources, administration and $$$ towards the undergrads and isn't dominated / treated like second class citizens by grad students / faculty over a large research U anyday.</p>

<p>staticsoliloquy I don't get how your post talks about why Stanford sucks. Your title is misleading and frankly quite offensive especially to some one works his @$$ off to get in. You make some points but none of which make stanford bad how do you justify your title?

[QUOTE]

I thought that thread title would catch more attention than this one The Importance of the Quality of Undergraduate Education

[/QUOTE]

Silly excuse if you ask me. Also your chemistry point leaves out some stuff. Stanford does offer a class in one quarter (Chem 31X) but its the accelerated one which you can only take if you pass a placement test. You can also opt to take it in two quarters it becomes Chem31a and 31b instead if you don't have a strong background of chemistry. I took organic chemistry in high school so I think its ok to give it to someone in his freshman year. As for grade inflation and the fact that certain professors are more intrested in research this is in no way particular to Stanford and overall anyway at ratemyprofessors.com stanford chemistry teachers are rated overall pretty well which seems to disagree with what you said.</p>

<p>"My friend and I were discussing the quality of education between Stanford (or any private, research-focused university) and UWash. This is what he said about it. Tell me what you guys think."</p>

<p>What part of "this is what he said" don't you understand?</p>

<p>Ok so why did you choose such a title? Just to attract attention seems like a poor excuse to me. I mean the rest of your post is well written and quite clear so why choose such a title?</p>

<p>Do you even know who I am before you say "some one [who] works his @$$ off to get in." Do you think Stanford was handed to me on a silver platter with ice cream and cherry on top? </p>

<p>This is from a CHEMISTRY GRAD STUDENT who TAs freshman chemistry classes, so I would think he has more credibility about the workings of the chemistry department than some silly freshman who hasn't even start his 1st year at Stanford year. My goodness. Why don't people read introductions before they start saying ignorant things.</p>

<p>On ratemyprofessors.com, there are 11 chemistry professors. </p>

<p>4 are = (
2 are = |
5 are = )</p>

<p>I would say teaching sucks if the majority of the faculty are =( or =| teachers.</p>

<p>I am not doubting your thread or what you wrote on it, I am just saying that your thread's title doesn't reflect the writing inside the thread. I mean "Stanford sucks From a Graduate Student" is just such an inflammatory title. I never even disagreed with you I only pointed out two things:
1-You can take Chem31X only if you pass a placement test or get a 4 or a 5 in the AP. Else you take the Chem31a and Chem31b
2-ratemyprofessors.com (I am not making a personal remark just pointing out what I read online) shows the average chemistry teacher as ok.</p>

<p>I never meant any disrespect or anything and I apologize of I sounded that way I was just a bit angry after reading your post and for good reason, I am extremely interested in Chemistry and so reading that it isn't great at Stanford angered me.</p>

<p>I actually do not mean to disrespect you or argue with you at all. I actually want to learn from you, again I apologize for any rudeness on my behalf.</p>

<p>Actually I wish to seek your advice. I was actually planning on skipping Chemistry 31 altogether and start off with Chem33. I know my chemistry really well (as in to me the AP was really easy) do you think not taking anything before Chem33 is a smart choice?</p>

<p>Personally, there aren't many chemistry majors here. You are prelaw aren't you? You want to major in Econ, don't you?</p>

<p>It's great that you're so gung-ho about chemistry, and it's a shame that the Chemistry Department doesn't garner that curiosity. Do you know what Dr. Moylan said to me on the 1st day of Organic Chemistry Lab? He said, "Some of you think you can be chemistry majors, but by the end of this course, you will find out that you're not cut out for it." </p>

<p>Sorry to burst your idealistic bubble, but Stanford isn't perfect.</p>

<p>Actually no I'm not planning on law or econ. Quite the opposite I was thinking of majoring in ChemE or maybe Material Science. I love chemistry and indeed half my essays to universities were me describing what I find wonderful about chemistry. No I didn't think Stanford was perfect but I did think its Chemistry department was great. Actually your post just means I'll have a bigger struggle to achieve my dream I'm not going to turn away because of incompetent teachers but rather search for good TAs (seems like I already found one :) ) and seek their help. I want to thank you for this post btw.</p>

<p>"I know my chemistry really well (as in to me the AP was really easy) do you think not taking anything before Chem33 is a smart choice?"</p>

<p>I took Chem 31X for 2 weeks and I dropped it because I didn't want to waste my time relearning something I already know. I did fine in Chem 33 in the winter. You don't use anything you learn in 31X for 33.</p>

<p>^Thanks I was thinking on taking a Froso class instead of Chem 31X but I was worried I wouldn't know some of what was taught in Chem 31X. You don't mind if I PM you instead of taking up space on this thread do you?</p>

<p>The grad school experience depends almost solely on the individual department, so it's useless to make a generalization based on one person.</p>

<p>I got a 5 in AP Chemistry and took 31X as a grad student just to satisfy my technical unit requirement, and didn't learn anything new.</p>

<p>Thanks im_blue that gives me a clear consience to take some other subject :)</p>

<p>Honestly, state schools can hold a lot of weight in the career world. They often have large, loyal, and active alumni bases, which can help you out big time in the job market.</p>

<p>Most private schools' alumni network don't even compare to even the largest state schools' network</p>

<p>Drew00, I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or refuting me</p>