For those who were rejected….

<p>For those who were rejected…. </p>

<p>Just a couple of comments. </p>

<li><p>Almost all my DS’s classmates applied for Stanford ED and after getting the results they did some analysis. A lot of overachieved kids with numerous AP classes, awards and leadership positions were either rejected or deferred. Among accepted kids (usually it’s about 30 in our school) were those whose parents work for Stanford or nobody expected them even to apply… </p></li>
<li><p>I have a friend who is a professor at Stanford. According to him paying for Stanford undergraduate degree is a waste of money, because the classes are huge, the professors are busy with their own work (researches, projects and so on), and you are almost on your own. You may want to get Graduate and Postgraduate degrees at that place, but for undergraduate you will be not in better environment than in average SU.
Also as a rule Graduate and Postgraduate students got their Undergraduate degree not at Stanford, so it’s not the end of your life, do your best in other colleges and apply for Stanford in 3-4 years, if it’s your really dream school.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>1) Just goes to show that Stanford doesn't look for straight-up good students. Legacies get in everywhere; that's nothing specific to Stanford. And those "nobody expected" to apply were obviously terrific enough applicants to convince the admissions staff that they should be at Stanford.</p>

<p>2) For some reason, this really bothers me. If this is true, why did so many of your DS's classmates apply? Did you tell any of them this BEFORE, so they knew? I just feel like mentioning it now is a rationalization of why a rejection isn't that important; "Oh, Stanford isn't that good."</p>

<p>Wow, sour grapes from parents...that is a bit pathetic.</p>

<p>This thread is not from a parent of a rejected student. Our DS was not interested in Stanford at all, but I really feel sorry for her friends who think it’s the end of their life, but it’s rather the beginning of the most interesting and challenging part of your life.</p>

<p>re: huge classes</p>

<p>My son is a freshman at Stanford and one of his classes last quarter had seven students.</p>

<p>I understand that your DS did not apply; this was implied in your first post. However, I feel that attacking the quality of the school as a way to lessen rejections is unproductive and childish. You haven't even established that large classes are bad things for everyone, or that Stanford has only large classes.</p>

<p>I'm just pointing out that for some, it was the perfect fit. They will do well somewhere else. But drawing out flaws in the school is only regressive.</p>

<p>your school has 30 accepted to stanford?! dang...</p>

<p>First, what does DS mean?</p>

<p>Secondly, I agree. Stanford for undergraduate years are not at all necessary, since you can find very good educations at other institutes. I know many of my friends who just want to go to Stanford because of the name. When I ask them why they want to go to Stanford, they would usually say "Oh, because it's prestigious!!!" or "Because... everyone knows Stanford!" It goes to show that not getting accepted into Stanford isn't the end of the world.</p>

<p>
[quote]
A lot of overachieved kids with numerous AP classes, awards and leadership positions were either rejected or deferred. Among accepted kids (usually it’s about 30 in our school) were those whose parents work for Stanford or nobody expected them even to apply…

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Just because someone's parents work for Stanford doesn't preclude that person's own capacity. In fact, I think it makes their success even more expected. After all, if someone is smart and accomplished enough to work at Stanford, their kids will have their smart genetic material and be raised in a household that emphasizes academics and achievement. I would think plenty of Stanford faculty have brilliant, accomplished children who will make great contributions to the Stanford community on their own.</p>

<p>Along the same lines, just because you didn't expect someone to apply doesn't preclude that person's potential. In fact, since you didn't expect them to apply, you probably no nothing about them or their resume, so I think its perfectly reasonable to think those students are totally qualified to attend Stanford.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I have a friend who is a professor at Stanford. According to him paying for Stanford undergraduate degree is a waste of money, because the classes are huge, the professors are busy with their own work (researches, projects and so on), and you are almost on your own. You may want to get Graduate and Postgraduate degrees at that place, but for undergraduate you will be not in better environment than in average SU.
Also as a rule Graduate and Postgraduate students got their Undergraduate degree not at Stanford, so it’s not the end of your life, do your best in other colleges and apply for Stanford in 3-4 years, if it's your really dream school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Every professor I've had at Stanford has been great. My classes had 200ish, 16, 14, and 8 people in them. My roommate had 200ish, 150ish, 30, 15, 7, and 3 (yes, 3). The big ones are lecture classes that usually have a great professor who everyone wants to have so large classes are inevitable. Discussion sections are made for each of these lectures for students to to ask questions and/or discuss the material further under the guidance of a TA or TF. Seminar classes and foreign language classes are capped at 15 students. There are some bad professors, but Stanford has a system (courserank.stanford.edu) that lets you look up a course and read reviews of professors and see the grade distribution for students who look the class. You can always take the same class later under a better professor.</p>

<p>Freshman/sophomore seminars (also capped at 15) give students a chance to interact with prominent faculty on high-level subjects they usually wouldn't encounter until senior-year or postgraduate-level courses. Some of these include: Drama Queens: Powerful Women on Stage; What's Your Accent? Investigations in Acoustic Phonetics; Psychology, Inequality, and the American Dream; Genomics in Medicine. More at introsems.stanford.edu. My friend took one his first quarter of freshman year with a Nobel Prize winner, ended up having many-hour discussions in his office hours, and is now doing his honor thesis under his guidance.</p>

<p>Being accepted to Stanford for undergrad is the best thing that could have ever happened to me, and I'm sure almost everyone who's there will say the same thing. It affords you incredible opportunities, not the least of which is being surrounded by such driven, accomplished, diverse (in every sense of the word), and simply incredible people. Silicon Valley companies fight for Stanford undergrads while turning down PhD students at other schools.</p>

<p>Yes, you can still accomplish great things without going to Stanford. The 3rd richest person in the country dropped out of University of Illinois, so obviously he needed no elite education for his success. However, it was still very childish of you to groundlessly bash one of the greatest universities on the face of the planet and all the good faculty of students thereof. Just reassure people that rejection does not preclude a successful career, don't attack the well-deserved acceptance of others and make empty claims about a school you obviously don't know much about.</p>

<p>Likely not too many readers of this thread now...</p>

<p>I see the point of whoever spoke against Stanford for having seen the huge classes....it's not that Stanford classes are all large. It's that you shouldn't go to Stanford WITh the expectation of small classes when you'd like them. </p>

<p>For everyone's information, I'm at Berkeley...my math classes have had 11, 6, 11, 15....such numbers of students. There is really no way to stereotype about a school's class sizes. Berkeley is reputed, after all, for 2000000000000000000000 person classes. </p>

<p>I wish someone like kliviz would try to take what can actually be taken out of people's points. It's obvious that some good students will end up there. But not only Stanford - basically all of the undergraduate programs which consider themselves selective - end up making very strange admissions decisions. I'm sorry, but I do know QUITE A FEW who're not naturally brilliant, have mediocre grades at best, mediocre scores, no huge extracurriculars, etc who got in. It IS a problem. At many schools. I go to Cal, and I will never say that everyone who got in really deserves it. </p>

<p>Let's try to be objective...Stanford does have some good resources, great professors for sure (some of which are very friendly with those in our faculty), but their admissions policy is very shady at best.</p>

<p>Also, the point about graduate studies at Stanford is a great one.</p>

<p>
[quote]
it's not that Stanford classes are all large. It's that you shouldn't go to Stanford WITh the expectation of small classes when you'd like them.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>FWIW, 4% of Stanford's courses have more than 100, and only 2% more than 120. Roughly 75% have fewer than 15.</p>

<p>All students who apply for an introsem get into at least one, if not that quarter then after.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I'm sorry, but I do know QUITE A FEW who're not naturally brilliant, have mediocre grades at best, mediocre scores, no huge extracurriculars, etc who got in. It IS a problem.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No, it's not, because they get to Stanford and are successful there. You are trying to judge others without even seeing their entire application. Ever thought they had outstanding circumstances? Or perhaps you were wrong about their stats? Or perhaps you just didn't know as much about them as you thought you did?</p>

<p>
[quote]
but their admissions policy is very shady at best.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You can be judgmental about others; I will happily consider them my peers and not question their merits.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Also, the point about graduate studies at Stanford is a great one.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Much, much more so at Berkeley.</p>

<p>Kyle, I'm sorry that you're getting the impression that I am just belittling students at Stanford (Or other schools), but you ought to read holistically and realize my point. Which is not that those who got in don't deserve it necessarily. All your sentences on this matter began with "perhaps" I think. </p>

<p>The point is that it's not CLEAR why some decisions are made. They do seem shady. And I'm not willing to so easily accept that the decisions are even mostly sound when many hardworking students with higher scores (OK, I DO know what I'm talking about when I refer to my own high school, I am certain) were seemingly cheated of admissions, and others with comparably lower performance in SEVERAL areas (I'm not just talking miniscule stuff) were in. Your view is pretty narrowminded if you want to stop people from questioning the admissions systems...note that for every one of your fortunate peers whom you respect so well, there are some very disheartened, super bright students, and they do have a legitimate reason to question Stanford. </p>

<p>Anyway, I don't get your point about Berkeley grad school. Stanford and Berkeley both have some great programs for grad school, and I can name areas where each surpasses the other, no problem. I was just saying that it's a good idea for those rejected from Stanford undergrad to look towards the grad school. I'd hope you don't have a problem with this.</p>

<p>And about class sizes...I think I said enough to make it clear that there are small classes in many schools. People should go to Stanford, though, because they like something in particular about the school atmosphere and philosophy, not for the raw class size, I think...plenty of smaller schools out there.</p>

<p>Also...I know first hand what it is like to have one's circumstances misjudged...enough said. I don't want to go on about how terrible a given year of mine was, but I know that it's less than ideal to compare students and call one "better" than another. </p>

<p>I don't think Stanford is amazing at admitting people who beat terrible circumstances anyway - a blaring example from my school comes to mind. </p>

<p>OK nuff said. The point is to be open to criticism, not to bash people based on their SAT scores and GPA, which I think is stupid anyway.</p>

<p>Kyle, I think the fact that you go to Cal should discredit anything you say about Stanford. :)</p>

<p>Just kidding! Don't shoot me!!</p>

<p>But these are all valid points. I just want to emphasize the fact that the people who got in, deserved to get in. And yes, many people who did not get in, also deserved to get in. What upsets me is when posters focus too much on the latter and make it seem like all the URMs/legacies/hook applicants did not deserve to get in. Especially on that toxic SCEA decisions thread, which I have been staying away from ever since those posts started showing up.</p>

<p>URMs are people, for crying out loud. Don't slap an acronym on them.
And Cal kid, the above is not directed towards you. You're one of the more respectful people on this forum. :)</p>

<p>Thanks starpollen =] </p>

<p>Kyle doesn't seem to actually read my posts (not trying to be argumentative here, just please, read them if you want to respond constructively!)....somewhere else, he said I'm trying to make Berkeley sound better than Stanford. JUST in this thread, I have said that I don't believe CAl's admissions policy is always clear-cut either. </p>

<p>I think starpollen does raise a good point though, which is that in all the mania "Why didn't this 2400 SAT, 4.0 UW get in...and this legacy..." may be mean-spirited towards many deserving legacies and such. </p>

<p>I still think undergraduate admissions is a strange, fishy affair in many cases, and am fine with people wondering if dice determine their destiny....my own view is that admissions decisions may be unwise, but the only way to learn about a student is to meet him/her and really discuss his/her passions.</p>

<p>
[quote]
but you ought to read holistically and realize my point. Which is not that those who got in don't deserve it necessarily. All your sentences on this matter began with "perhaps" I think.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I read “holistically,” but your points seem ill-constructed--you can see, then, why I’m misconstruing what you mean. (I said “perhaps” to imply that you don’t know as much as you think you do about other applicants.)</p>

<p>
[quote]
And I'm not willing to so easily accept that the decisions are even mostly sound when many hardworking students with higher scores (OK, I DO know what I'm talking about when I refer to my own high school, I am certain) were seemingly cheated of admissions, and others with comparably lower performance in SEVERAL areas (I'm not just talking miniscule stuff) were in.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You say the above isn’t your point, but then you just reaffirm what I think your point is: that Stanford has “shady” admissions because some students that you “know” were not as spectacular as others get in while the latter gets rejected. You are implicitly judging those students. I think that is wrong. (I also sense some bitterness-- “cheated of”? Lower performance?)</p>

<p>
[quote]
Your view is pretty narrowminded if you want to stop people from questioning the admissions systems

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Where did I say that people shouldn’t question admissions systems? I’m saying that your support that Stanford’s admissions is questionable is not support at all.</p>

<p>
[quote]
and they do have a legitimate reason to question Stanford.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Simply because they didn’t get in? Methinks they need to get over it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Anyway, I don't get your point about Berkeley grad school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The first point re: grad school was that “You may want to get Graduate and Postgraduate degrees at that place,” with the implication that undergrad is comparatively inferior (as was obvious in the OP and in the clause following the above: “but for undergraduate you will be not in better environment than in average SU”), i.e. that undergrads are marginalized in favor of grads (to which I said that it’s much more so at Berkeley). You agreed with the point about “graduate studies,” which appeared to mean the above; but as you clarified, “it's a good idea for those rejected from Stanford undergrad to look towards the grad school.”</p>

<p>
[quote]
somewhere else, he said I'm trying to make Berkeley sound better than Stanford. JUST in this thread, I have said that I don't believe CAl's admissions policy is always clear-cut either.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Simply because you make a concession about Cal doesn’t mean that you haven’t implicitly tried to make it seem better.</p>

<p>And again, I can read your points, but you need to make it clear that your statements aren’t driven by some bias. Some examples where you seem to portray Stanford in a bad light or Cal in a better one:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Come to Cal! You'll find that half of us are more fierily academic than those who got into Stanford instead of us</p>

<p>if you're a really good student who didn't have the strange requirements [for Stanford to think you "stick out"]</p>

<p>I see the point of whoever spoke against Stanford for having seen the huge classes</p>

<p>But not only Stanford - basically all of the undergraduate programs which consider themselves selective - end up making very strange admissions decisions. [follow-up with anecdotal evidence judging fellow students]</p>

<p>but their admissions policy is very shady at best.</p>

<p>Specifically, something from your essays should make them think you're STANFORD MATERIAL. What that means, no idea whatsoever.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
Kyle, I think the fact that you go to Cal should discredit anything you say about Stanford.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Except, I'm not a Cal student. ;)</p>

<p>Well, OK here I'll make myself plain I think. I DO think the admissions process at Stanford AND Cal are shady. Shady meaning that there are very surprising decisions arrived at. I personally think the Cal admissions process is more straightforward than that at STanford. Not BETTER, but more straightforward. I meant "shady" to reflect a lack of straightforwardness. </p>

<p>Yes, I am implicitly judging certain students. But I only ever judge how ACADEMIC they are. This, I think I can judge from sitting in classes with them, communicating with them, and such. I come from a simple mindset that only fairly academic students go to a school like STanford to take advantage of its top faculty. I'm not a fan of people going to any school for raw prestige. </p>

<p>Thus, I did find it surprising that in even an entire school I know in CA, I believe only 1 favorable admissions decision to Stanford was made. This was a school FULL of super competitive, academically inclined students. What I'm saying here is that I don't understand Stanford's spirit. And yes, there is some bitterness - which is to say that I wish it were clearer what some schools wanted out of students. Not to belittle the schools, and not to take away from students who get in. Students often complain because they don't GET why their hard work and efforts in a certain direction didn't cut it. There are some highly top quality academic minds who got rejected from STanford, and ended up at Cal EECS (the kind who'd shoot for number 1 CS grad schools, and such). </p>

<p>When I posted on the thread about the high scorers not getting in, I WAS saying a lot of them might be more academic than a bunch of their STanford counterparts. Then, I later say that Cal and Stanford both have some great academic students. But the pattern I saw is that people who were just pure academicians often didn't get in to a lot of private schools (notable exception - a school like Caltech...but not everyone wants to go there, and not everyone makes it!), and I was inviting some of these to Cal, because I think it's relatively easy to get in to CAl programs with such academic stats....and I meant to say these guys will have lots of company.</p>

<p>Oh, and the ONLY point of yours I was disagreeing with. If there is a significant pattern of students not getting in and being really surprised at how decisions were made, I do believe they should be able to question it. I thought you were disagreeing with me above, in fact, when I said you're speaking against such a questioning attitude! Possibly my single reason for posting in this thread is those "shutting up" the "whiners." =]</p>

<p>I faced such an unfavorable decision, and I "got over it" in the sense that I'm happy where I am in my school. I hope you won't try to say that the very fact I'm posting on this forum means I didn't get over it. The fact is, I'm still very interested in educational trends, and think there are some far from obvious things to say about what's going around. You may think it's obvious to students that getting into Stanford isn't just about academics and packaging some good extracurriculars, but I can think of lots of exceptions to that!</p>