Stanford v Princeton - STEM

Colleges and Universities A-Z Stanford University
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<p>D last week narrowed her choices to Yale, Stanford and Princeton. </p>

<p>D could not do the official admitted students events, but just completed a week-long, spring break tour of all three. Although she really likes all three institutions, she has now decided to eliminate Yale based on its relatively smaller STEM opportunities, courses, etc. That leaves Stanford and Princeton. </p>

<p>She is not absolutely sure what she wants to study, but likely applied math, computer science, and/or engineering. We understand that S's engineering and CS programs are rated more highly, but P's math program seems to have the edge and its engineering and CS programs are rated highly enough. So rankings/prestige is not a decision maker. </p>

<p>For Princeton, she really likes the intimate campus, chance to live on the East Coast, the social aspects such as the eating clubs, LAC atmosphere, and the whole ancient Ivy feel. She is concerned about grade deflation. To a lesser extent, she's concerned about its weaker connections to Silicon Valley in case she decides to go CS.</p>

<p>For Stanford, she likes the relaxed, open nature of campus and student body. She also likes the proximity to Silicon Valley (both physically and in terms of alumni networks, internship opportunities, etc). And even though she has lived in California all her life, the sunny weather remains a perpetual attraction too. A lurking concern for her is that she loves intellectual challenge and feels that perhaps the median intellectual capacity of the student body may be somewhat higher at P (not looking for a flame war on this, just sharing her observations, which may be colored by the lobbying of her college counselor, who is a big P fan). </p>

<p>In short, she has now toured both campuses and sees herself as very happy at either one. The father in me wants to push her toward S for easy visits and increased likelihood she will remain in California afterward, but I really just want her to be happy.</p>

<p>For an extroverted, happy female with a gift for math, what are other factors she might consider in making this decision? Any experiences anyone in the CC community can share about S v. P, particularly from STEM students who were cross-admitted and chose one over the other?</p>

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<p>About 1/3 of stanford students are hypsm cross-admits, not sure about Princeton though.</p>

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<p>Just to add, Stanford math is rated higher than Princeton is in CS/engineering. For example, in [url=<a href=“http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-science-schools/mathematics-rankings]this[/url”>http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-science-schools/mathematics-rankings]this[/url</a>], Stanford and Princeton are tied with Harvard for #2. In [url=<a href=“http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-science-schools/computer-science-rankings]CS[/url”>http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-science-schools/computer-science-rankings]CS[/url</a>], there’s a larger difference. But you’re right the differences here are minimal and both are excellent for what she wants to study.</p>

<p>I chose Stanford over Princeton when I was a senior, largely for Stanford’s strength in my field (in STEM). Your D seems to like aspects of Princeton that I ultimately didn’t like (e.g. the eating clubs). One thing she should definitely consider is what she’s interested in within math or CS. Both of them are very broad fields, and Stanford and Princeton do have many different strengths within them (although there’s a lot of overlap).</p>

<p>I don’t think that the median ‘intellectual capacity’ at Princeton is higher. Sure, there’s a difference of 30-40 points on the SAT midpoint (which doesn’t mean the average or median is actually lower; that’s estimated), but that says nothing about their intellect. In fact, Stanford has traditionally required more essays than Princeton, including the “intellectual vitality” essay. I think in general Stanford probes for different kinds of intelligence (esp. for that oft-discussed “passion”), which is why it often makes decisions that just seem “odd.” I’d also say Stanford is a little bit more selective - not so much because its acceptance rate is lower, but more because its yield is much higher (in past years, a spread of ~25% or 15 percentage points). I’ll add that usually Stanford takes the majority - around 2/3 - of the [url=<a href=“http://mathacle.blogspot.com/2010/10/hypsm-cross-admits-for-2002-2014.html]cross-admits[/url”>Mathacle's Blog: Stanford's HYPSM Cross-Admits for 2002 - 2010]cross-admits[/url</a>] with Princeton. IMO the student bodies are definitely comparable.</p>

<p>What else is she looking for? Perhaps certain extracurriculars? Class variety? Department/program variety? Interdisciplinary programs? Does she like the idea of being able to take graduate-level classes?</p>

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<p>If your D likes the LAC-like atmosphere at Princeton, then she should check out Structured Liberal Education (SLE) at Stanford. It’s like a LAC within Stanford for freshman. D (also a STEM) loved it and made many of her best friends - a quirky, intellectual environment.</p>

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<p>OP, what do you mean by “intellectual challenge?” </p>

<p>I think Stanford students can be pretty intellectual, but often there’s just a ton of s*** getting in the way. If your daughter wants, she can be very intellectually involved, as many students are. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that lifestyle, it’s not really frowned upon or anything, it’s more that a lot of us find rewarding activities outside of traditionally academic pursuits. </p>

<p>I know some guys who ski every weekend winter quarter. I know others who basically live in the Stanford Daily building. Some friends of mine code for hours on a startup, others spend 15 plus hours a week in the performing arts. And some people spend their days in the lab. </p>

<p>Also, maybe Stanford doesn’t give off that much of an “intellectual” vibe because being intellectual has connotations of being superior, and Stanford students are humble to a fault (especially the ones who have every reason not to be, like Andrew Luck). You won’t know who down your hall has a 4.0.</p>

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<p>phantasmagoric - She realizes narrowing her academic interests would help, but she is just not sure at this point. She did summer engineering camps for two summers at different colleges, and decided electrical and mechanical probably were not her thing, but some other area of engineering could still spark her. In fact, it was the narrow engineering choices at Yale that helped her eliminate that school. She loved her CS AP coursework in high school (except for the slow pace), and really enjoying sitting in on CS classes last week at both P and S. The S professor apparently wrote the book and threw candy and the whole class was quite engaged. But she also loves math and has been advised that while many people can code, not many have the advanced math skills required for certain types of CS. So she has started looking at majoring in applied math, minor in CS as one possibility. Anyway, just not sure enough at this point to make the decision based on fine points of curriculum at either institution. </p>

<p>M’s Mom - we are going to a local admitted students event tonight and she will ask about the SLE program. At her recent S visit, her engineering friend derided the program as “weird”, but she has an open mind.</p>

<p>Senior0991 - the “intellectual challenge” can be hard to define, but maybe it is more cultural than anything. Students at both P and S will be highly gifted, no doubt. But she has been disappointed over the years to observe that some of the brightest students she has studied with have downplayed their talents in the class. Not out of a desire to be humble, but because being intellectually interested is sometimes seen as not cool for whatever reason among some. She has noticed this particularly among boys. She is not a snob or elitist by any stretch. But she wants to study with people who want to intellectually engage, not sit in the back of the class and think they are so smart they can get an A without participating and, besides, what they really care about is skiing or coding or doing whatever they do in their time outside the class. I guess she is a little concerned that the laid back nature of S reminds her a bit of her sunny So Cal high school where regard for intellectual challenge was a bit uncool. Does that help?</p>

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<p>EnVino, I’m a Stanford student with legacy at P (and H), and I can attest that there is at least as high a level of intellectual engagement among students here. As I’ve posted previously, I think that at the beginning of freshman year, some students adopt a cool, more-laid-back-than-thou stance for a while; most students here were pretty nerdy in high school (hence their ability to be admitted to colleges of this caliber) and they view the beginning of college as an opportunity for radical self-invention. But soon enough people’s inner nerds re-emerge, fully intact. : ) The great thing about S is that you’ll find a lot less pseudo-intellectual posturing, and attempts at one-upmanship, among students than at some peer schools–students at Stanford tend to be more secure than that, which is another way to look at the cultural differences on the campuses, particularly as experienced by many freshmen as they start out. The SLE program is a great choice for students who want to jump right in to an intensive humanities experience upon arrival–loads of opportunities for those all-night philosophical discussion marathons. Good luck to your D.</p>

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<p>Your daughter’s decision really shouldn’t be made on the supposed strength of the STEM programs. So many kids change their minds that choosing a school by the strength of a given department or field should be way down the list on her criteria (I started out with a chem major as a preference at Princeton, never took a chem course, graduated as a psych major, and can give you endless examples of people who did the same thing).</p>

<p>Both Stanford and Princeton have incredibly strong programs in all of the STEM majors, filled with internationally-prominent professors. The academic opportunities at both schools will be way more than she can take advantage of.</p>

<p>There are both Princeton people and Stanford people in Silicon Valley; there are probably more Stanford people there, but mostly because Stanford grads are more likely to want to be live there. A Princeton degree is certainly not going to put her behind a Stanford degree if she eventually winds up aiming for Silicon Valley (and the chances that your daughter wants to go to work in Silicon Valley four years from now are smaller than you think).</p>

<p>I’m sure I’ll get people spouting all kinds of statistics and evidence from both directions to prove that I’m wrong about this, but the two schools are really a tie academically. Her decision should be made on her feel for her fit at each school. New Jersey can be a long way for some California kids, and the weather is completely different. Other kids really benefit from experiencing a completely different region than where they spent their first 18 years. Princeton’s size and overall feel is different than Stanford’s. </p>

<p>She should choose based on location, size and overall atmosphere.</p>

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<p>zenkoan’s post is spot on. One thing that turned me off to similar universities (Yale, Princeton, UChicago) was that much of, not all, the supposed ‘intellectualism’ there just seemed forced to me - posturing. You don’t need to discuss Kant or postmodern art to be ‘intellectual.’ For me, what real intellectualism really boils down to is what students are excited about, which is hugely varied at Stanford. Whether it’s the Solar Car team or alternative energy initiatives or issues with K-12 education, once students find what they love, their engagement in it is what makes the atmosphere vibrant and intellectual. Of course, everyone has a different take on what intellectualism means to them.</p>

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<p>haha, so true! Esp. with the self-invention and the re-emergence of the inner nerdiness. I’m imagining an evolutionary picture of the typical Stanford student - “I’m a nerd, and proud of it!” (high school) –> “I’m hella chill” (freshman) –> “Yeah, I like math.” :p</p>

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<p>Well, it’s worth noting that if she does change her major, she will be guaranteed to be in a top-5 department at Stanford, sometimes top-10. That isn’t the case at Princeton.</p>

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<p>Of course. It’s not so much that going to Princeton would put you at a disadvantage (relative to the ‘norm,’ which may be defined as having neither an advantage nor a disadvantage; and in fact, I’d say that going to Princeton puts you on the advantage side of that norm). Rather, going to Stanford confers a significant advantage. Its location within SV is a plus, but it’s really the connections that matter. As anyone in SV knows, it’s all about networking and connections, which is what programs like Y-combinator help to provide to budding startups. But if you’re a Stanford student, you don’t even need to bother with such programs: you get the connections through alumni, professors, and the countless entrepreneurs/startups/VCs that work with students on and off campus. VCs are often willing to hear a pitch from you merely because you go/went to Stanford.</p>

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<p>Count me as one Stanford grad who thinks school connections are overrated. My best job leads have come from people who have worked with me before.</p>

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I agree with Zenkoan’s analysis that, after the freshman year (for those who don’t do SLE), this radically changes. I’d add that a lot of the non-intellectualism in the freshman year probably stems from weed-out intro classes (which are inevitable, though some don’t go through them) and IHUM (which won’t be around next year, I think). </p>

<p>Being intellectually interested is not seen as not cool. Re my earlier post, it’s not that being intellectually interested is at all looked down upon, but most Stanford students just don’t feel a need to conform to the stereotypes associated with intellectualism (flowery prose, obscure allusions that are irrelevant to the topic at hand, fancy attire, etc.).</p>

<p>And regarding being humble, it’s not out of shame for one’s talents, but rather a recognition of some other factors (not everyone is as talented as you, talents do not make a person’s character). I’m not ashamed to set the curve. I’m proud of that. I would be ashamed if I felt a need to tell everyone that fact, especially those in the class who did not do as well. </p>

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Totally agree. </p>

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If she wants a school filled entirely with people whose sole focus is on academics, she will not find that at Stanford. If she takes that a step further and looks down on those people whose focus might be split evenly between academics and extracurriculars, then Stanford is probably not the place for her. If she wants a school filled with people who care deeply about their classes, but where many of the students pursue activities that conflict with time that could otherwise be spent studying, then Stanford is a great place for her. </p>

<p>I’ll admit, sometimes my extracurriculars take priority over classes, even as my classes have become more of a priority over the years. Is that a choice I make? Yes. If I could do anything different, it would be adding more hours onto the day. </p>

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This just isn’t true. Apart from the connections, Silicon Valley companies love a CS educated Stanford student. I know of relatively unconnected freshman, non-CS majors, who have merely taken a couple intro CS classes, who have gotten 10,000 dollar plus jobs over the summer. Add in four years of connections, top notch classes, work experience in Silicon Valley, and the Stanford grad has a sizeable advantage. If someone has an end goal of winding up in Silicon Valley, it would be downright foolish, other things equal, to choose Princeton over Stanford. </p>

<p>If your daughter goes to Stanford, she will know in a couple years whether she wants to pursue the Silicon Valley world or not. For the STEM-types coming in, many get caught up in it, some do not. If the former, Stanford is the number one place in the world for that. If the latter, Stanford still sets one up for success in a variety of different careers. It’s not the best at everything (someone whose only interest is in film would be foolish to pass up USC or NYU for Stanford), but it is very solid across the board.</p>

<p>I don’t normally go to such lengths to defend Stanford. But what is being discussed I view as some of its distinct strengths.</p>

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<p>From my experiences, both schools have fairly different cultures. Your D will be fine either way. It just depends on which one she thinks fits her better. Princeton’s math and cos are definitely heavily on the abstract/theoretical side. I’m not sure about Stanford. Stanford’s CS culture does seem more about Silicon Valley/start-ups, while Princeton’s is more about Google/Microsoft/industry. Regardless, the difference is probably overblown. You might have more connections at Stanford, but I also don’t know any cos people at Princeton who had trouble finding tech jobs.</p>

<p>As far as intellectualism goes, it seems to me that Stanford students like to emphasize that they are doing interesting activities/projects/clubs while learning, while Princeton students are the opposite. They’re focused on their academics, but also are involved in other things. Where your D would fit better might depend on whether she prioritizes classwork or extracurriculars more.</p>