Stanford vs. Harvard

Colleges and Universities A-Z Stanford University
21

<p>ske293:</p>

<p>"The numbers are relevant because the most academically gifted high school students across the U.S. see Harvard as the place to be, much more so than any other college."</p>

<p>I still don't see how their choices have anything to do with the OP's. Your argument is based on the ad populum fallacy; simply because they chose Harvard does not mean that it was the correct choice (though of course, a choice is on opinion). And that table doesn't even account for why they chose Harvard; for all we know, it could've been prestige alone. </p>

<p>datalook:</p>

<p>"MIT deserves to be in the group of Stanford, Berkeley, and Harvard at graduate level. It is a school super strong in virtually all science fields and engineering fields. Plus, it has a top bussiness school, a top economics department and a top linguistics department."</p>

<p>Exactly, for sciences/engineering+business+econ+ling. After that, it doesn't compare with Berkeley/Stanford/Harvard, which have top programs in even more: anthropology, French, geography, classics, art history, comparative lit, German, English, history, psychology, music, sociology, Spanish/Portuguese, philosophy, poli sci, and more.</p>

<p>According to the NRC rankings (a bit old, but you get the point), MIT has 20 top-ten programs, roughly the same as Yale, UChicago, Cornell, and Princeton. So it seems it's more at the level of Yale, etc. than Stanford (31), Berkeley (35), or Harvard (26).</p>

22

<p>I like how ske just ignores the sentences about the NE region. After all, that's a 5.7x enrichment of a region that's much less diverse than CA.</p>

23

<p>You guys are losers. Just stop, none of this has any relevance what so ever. It's just minutea that no one even cares about.</p>

<p>Go to which one suits you best. If you are from the west coast boston is a cool city, and the east coast will probably be more exciting due to the change.
harvard has more brand appeal... stanford has almost as much... whatever.
If you want to do anything engineering related Stanford beats Harvard hands down in every department. If you want to do CS we are the best, and are right in the heart of Silicon Valley. We also have better weather and a more laid-back atmosphere. Weather does have a great affect on how happy people are ... there's more stuff to do when it's 72 degrees or hotter 3/4 of the year.</p>

<p>My suggestion is check them both out... and then decide. If you are worried about academics both are amazing and you will have great opputunities and great peers at both. For Engineering Stanford is significantly better though.</p>

24

<p>"I like how ske just ignores the sentences about the NE region. After all, that's a 5.7x enrichment of a region that's much less diverse than CA."</p>

<p>New England has 10.7 million people (3.6% of population) and 17% of Harvard students, so that's 4.7 fold enrichment, not 5.7 fold.</p>

<p>New England has also traditionally offered the most sophisticated high school education in the country, including many of the most prestigious and selective prep schools (Exeter, Andover and dozens of others) and public schools (like Boston Latin, which sends 40+ students a year to Harvard). But it still only accounts for 17% of the student body. At Stanford, nearly one out of two students is from California.</p>

25

<p>NRC rankings are based largely on popularity surveys, just like the U.S. News, maybe a little more sophisticated.</p>

<p>For a rankings based on objective data alone, look at
<a href="http://mup.asu.edu/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://mup.asu.edu/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Their criteria are:
research publications
citations (impact)
research funding
awards and prizes
membership in the National Academies</p>

<p>Harvard's data on funding is about a 5-fold underestimate because it doesn't include funding obtained by medical school faculty based at its teaching hospitals (Mass General, Brigham and Women's, Dana-Farber, Children's, Beth Israel), which are financially separate from the university but generate huge amounts of federal sponsored research funding. So the research funding data are misleading.</p>

26

<p>Shanghai J-T University has rankings based on objective criteria by broad fields. <a href="http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/ARWU-FIELD.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/ARWU-FIELD.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<ol>
<li><p>Physical Sciences and Mathematics
Harvard Univ
Univ California - Berkeley
Princeton Univ
Univ Cambridge
California Inst Tech
Massachusetts Inst Tech (MIT)
Stanford Univ
Tokyo Univ
Univ California - Los Angeles
Univ Oxford</p></li>
<li><p>Engineering/Computer Science
Massachusetts Inst Tech (MIT)
Stanford Univ
Univ Illinois - Urbana Champaign
Univ Michigan - Ann Arbor
Univ California - Berkeley
Pennsylvania State Univ - Univ Park
Georgia Inst Tech
Univ Texas - Austin
Univ California - San Diego</p></li>
<li><p>Life Sciences
Harvard Univ
Massachusetts Inst Tech (MIT)
Univ California - San Francisco
Univ Washington - Seattle
Stanford Univ
Univ Texas Southwestern Med Center
Columbia Univ
Univ Wisconsin - Madison
Rockefeller Univ</p></li>
<li><p>Clinical Medicine
Harvard Univ
Univ California - San Francisco
Univ Washington - Seattle
Johns Hopkins Univ
Columbia Univ
Univ California - Los Angeles
Univ Texas Southwestern Med Center
Univ Michigan - Ann Arbor
Karolinska Inst Stockholm</p></li>
<li><p>Social Sciences
Harvard Univ USA
Univ Chicago USA
Stanford Univ USA
Columbia Univ USA
Univ California - Berkeley USA
Massachusetts Inst Tech (MIT) USA
Princeton Univ USA
Univ Pennsylvania USA
Yale Univ USA</p></li>
</ol>

27

<p>"New England has also traditionally offered the most sophisticated high school education in the country, including many of the most prestigious and selective prep schools (Exeter, Andover and dozens of others) and public schools (like Boston Latin, which sends 40+ students a year to Harvard)".</p>

<p>As always, legends in their own minds.</p>

28

<p>go to harvard! duh</p>

29

<p>Research grants and publications as well as memberships in National Academies may not tell you much at all about what your undergraduate experience will be like. That matters a bit more for grad school, but even then it would be foolish to pick a school based on it's rank on a list unless there is a huge difference between the two schools in a particular area that is important to you. (For example, if one school's department is #1 in the nation and at another school it is #48 or that department doesn't exist, that might be something you would consider.) </p>

<p>Even if the criteria itself is objective, the choice of criteria isn't. It's really just a matter of finding a school that has the resources you need in an environment where you can thrive. It is highly unlikely that Stanford or Harvard will have significantly different resources in some particular field that is important to you. It's then a matter of finding the right fit for you. I really hope you will think about fit. I have a few friends who didn't and some of them have been very unhappy with their choice of college.</p>

30

<p>Well, looks like I forgot Pennsylvania in my calculations, which makes the sample sizes really askew. You're comparing 36 million from California to approximately ~60 million from the East Coast. Hell, if you're gonna keep growing and growing to the sample sizes you're comparing, we'll eventually get to the point where you have students from each of the 50 states representing 100% of the student body. 1-fold enrichment!1!!111!!!11 (though that's obviously not the case, what with international students)</p>

<p>The fact of the matter is, you don't have data for total East Coast admits for Stanford nor New York admits for Harvard, thus making your analogies grossly erroneous. In fact, technically, you don't even know the geographic distribution of the students **attending* said schools.* The only data you have available to you is the students admitted. What we know is that a roughly equal percentage of California students are admitted to Stanford as Mid-Atlantic/New England students are admitted to Harvard and though the East Coast states may be greater, as a whole, in population than California, I know many people who would argue California's diversity over all those states combined. Oh, but then we'd be getting into racial diversity of the respective student bodies and god knows the OP might actually care about that?</p>

<p>So, for the love of god, stop with the pulling of the numbers from the buttocks and let's give the OP some real, substantial reasons as to how one school may be a better fit or not.</p>

<p>I myself have the choice between Stanford and Harvard, and I could be like most people and choose Harvard because it has the slightly more established brand name. But I'm not. I'm choosing Stanford because I feel it offers a more liberating and well-rounded academic experience for undergraduates. The students at Stanford seemed much happier and more socially sound. The campus was much more gorgeous, and I liked the campus-centered community fostered by Stanford's suburban environment much more. That, coupled with the endless job opportunities of Silicon Valley, and the beauty of nearby San Francisco, made the choice so clear for me. I could see myself having the time of my life 4 years down the road at Stanford; I couldn't imagine living at Harvard for 4 years without going crazy.</p>

<p>But that's just me.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The admissions office at Stanford is putting a major emphasis on traveling around the country to recruit more students from other parts of the Union to Stanford, precisely for this reason. If everything is just fine as you claim, why is Stanford admissions office doing this?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Every college does this. Every one. What in god's name are you talking about?</p>

31

<p>
[quote]
New England has also traditionally offered the most sophisticated high school education in the country, including many of the most prestigious and selective prep schools (Exeter, Andover and dozens of others) and public schools (like Boston Latin, which sends 40+ students a year to Harvard). But it still only accounts for 17% of the student body. At Stanford, nearly one out of two students is from California.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ah, so this region is overrepresented at Harvard because it has the most elite schools. And it has the most elite schools because a lot of their students go to Harvard (like the Boston Latin School, as you pointed out). So they're overrepresented at Harvard because they're elite schools because they're overrepresented at Harvard.</p>

<p>I just thought I would point out your circular logic.</p>

32

<p>
[quote]
NRC rankings are based largely on popularity surveys, just like the U.S. News, maybe a little more sophisticated.</p>

<p>For a rankings based on objective data alone, look at
<a href="http://mup.asu.edu/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://mup.asu.edu/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Their criteria are:
research publications
citations (impact)
research funding
awards and prizes
membership in the National Academies</p>

<p>Harvard's data on funding is about a 5-fold underestimate because it doesn't include funding obtained by medical school faculty based at its teaching hospitals (Mass General, Brigham and Women's, Dana-Farber, Children's, Beth Israel), which are financially separate from the university but generate huge amounts of federal sponsored research funding. So the research funding data are misleading.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My god, will it end?! So one should choose Harvard for undergraduate studies because it releases more papers each year than other institutions? Gah!</p>

33

<p>"Every college does this. Every one. What in god's name are you talking about?"</p>

<p>Stanford is trying to increase its national profile by emulating Harvard. So that suggests that it's not satisfied with its geographic diversity, doesn't it?</p>

<p>"At the Faculty Senate meeting, Shaw spoke about his plans to increase marketing to augment Stanford?s appeal across the country. He proposed using national and international Alumni Association groups to conduct interviews and outreach around the globe and to increase recruitment travel tenfold by joining the ?Exploring College Options? consortium with Duke, Georgetown, Harvard and Penn, which travels to 300 cities in the fall of 2006 and spring of 2007."</p>

<p><a href="http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2006/5/30/admitYieldIncreasesBy2Percent%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2006/5/30/admitYieldIncreasesBy2Percent&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://facultysenate.stanford.edu/2005_2006/reports/dean_shaw_4_20_06.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://facultysenate.stanford.edu/2005_2006/reports/dean_shaw_4_20_06.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

34

<p>"My god, will it end?! So one should choose Harvard for undergraduate studies because it releases more papers each year than other institutions? Gah!"</p>

<p>Hey, I'm not the one who first mentioned NRC rankings. Look again.</p>

35

<p>"Ah, so this region is overrepresented at Harvard because it has the most elite schools. And it has the most elite schools because a lot of their students go to Harvard (like the Boston Latin School, as you pointed out). So they're overrepresented at Harvard because they're elite schools because they're overrepresented at Harvard.</p>

<p>I just thought I would point out your circular logic."</p>

<p>Contrary to what you said, I never claimed that the New England boarding schools are better because they send lots of students to Harvard and other Ivy League schools.</p>

<p>I just said that they are some of the most prestigious and selective high schools in the nation, which is a fact. And that's why they send many students to Harvard, which raises the percentage of New Englanders at Harvard. There is no circular reasoning here.</p>

<p>I just thought I would point out your faulty reasoning.</p>

36

<p>
[quote]
Stanford is trying to increase its national profile by emulating Harvard. So that suggests that it's not satisfied with its geographic diversity, doesn't it?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Your arguments are becoming increasingly moronic and just as worthless. There is no indication that Stanford is dissatisfied with its geographic diversity. They are simply trying to increase it, just like every other school in existence.</p>

<p>Because Harvard is involved in the same national outreach program, I guess they lack geographic diversity too.</p>

<p>The fact that Shaw is making this effort is excellent news for the Stanford student body, and the fact that you're trying to make it seem like a bad thing is hilarious.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Contrary to what you said, I never claimed that the New England boarding schools are better because they send lots of students to Harvard and other Ivy League schools.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually you brought up the fact that the Boston Latin School sends "40+ students every year to Harvard" as some indication of its prestige. And I found your reasoning for that, much like your other reasonings involving some foreign Asian country's rankings of papers published per year, to be utterly laughable.</p>

37

<p>Oh my god, just shut up.....</p>

<p>To the OP. It would help for you to know whether you are from the East Coast and want something different or from the West Coast and want something different. Then your choices would be obvious.</p>

<p>Beyond that, what are you studying? The sciences and engineering at Stanford are amazing, though apparently Harvard students can do a lot of cross-matriculation at MIT (is this true as an undergrad?).</p>

<p>Students from Harvard and Stanford tend to worship themselves, but Stanford is the more easygoing environment of the two by far and less prone to the most egregious kinds of snobbery.</p>

<p>Do you want a more country club environment without edge or do you want a more urban and intense environment?</p>

<p>The relative prestige of the two should not be a consideration at this point, since they are both tremendous and if you go to Stanford and ever have a Harvardian rub it in your face you can always say you chose S over H.</p>

<p>Note that I was going to lean toward recommending Harvard, but the whole "East Coast is the center of everything" aspect of some of the posts made me realize you really should consider Stanford as a nice alternative to that, depending on where you are from. There is a vast universe in Northern California and the West Coast as a whole and it is much less wrapped up in where one went to prep school and the like. And that is a nice difference. Stanford could be the ticket.</p>

38

<p>You cannot go to harvard and get an engineering degree by taking classes at MIT. I don't think it works that way ... you are limited by units (?) and I think only classes that aren't offered at both schools (?)</p>

39

<p>"I found your reasoning for that, much like your other reasonings involving some foreign Asian country's rankings of papers published per year, to be utterly laughable."</p>

<p>They are using perfectly legitimate criteria, like the Science Citation Index, impact factors, faculty and alumni who won scientific prizes, etc. They use objective criteria only, which makes it far more credible than surveys filled out people who are often partial, biased, and/or ignorant or have conflicts of interest. Does the fact that it was done by some obscure Chinese university that you and I have never heard of make it somehow illegitimate? Boy, talk about ethnocentrism and narrow-mindedness here. You would then say that scientific papers published in Nature, Science, and Cell would be garbage just because they came from universities in China, Japan, Taiwan, etc.?
Is this the kind of education you get at Stanford?</p>

<p>"Your arguments are becoming increasingly moronic and just as worthless. There is no indication that Stanford is dissatisfied with its geographic diversity. They are simply trying to increase it, just like every other school in existence.
Because Harvard is involved in the same national outreach program, I guess they lack geographic diversity too."</p>

<p>Your mouth is as filthy as your brain impaired. If Stanford is "satisfied" with its current level of diversity, it shouldn't have to do anything further. (Merriam-Webster definition: "satified" = "gratified to the full".)
Harvard already has exceptional geographic diversity in part because for decades they have been aggressive about outreach, including programs like this.</p>

<p>"The fact that Shaw is making this effort is excellent news for the Stanford student body, and the fact that you're trying to make it seem like a bad thing is hilarious."</p>

<p>Whoever said it was a bad thing? I'm very glad Stanford is doing it so that it won't be as provincial as it has been.</p>

40

<p>Wow...can you please take this arguement elsewhere?? Thanks...</p>