I didn’t submit my test scores or AP scores to either Penn or Stanford, but I did submit AP scores for the other two. I think I can handle it; I just wasn’t sure if the entire curriculum would be centered around math (particularly calculus), which would be less than ideal.
I had really strong extracurriculars and essays, so I am sure that’s what pushed me over for admission.
If money were no object, I’d say Penn. But unless your family is so well-off that 65K/yr x 4 yrs is NOTHING to them, I’d seriously consider that offer from Swarthmore. We’re talking the kind of wealth that involves significant multi-generational trust funds, in order to be in the position to think of a quarter of a million dollars as being unimportant. Look at it this way - if the choice were that your parents would put 65K/yr into an investment for you, for 4 yrs, and gift that to you as a graduation present, so that you would start off life with a nut of 250K or more, vs nothing, would that make a difference to you? And it’s not as if Swarthmore is a lesser school in ANY way. It’s probably one of the top 5 LAC’s in the country, arguably THE top LAC in the country. Plus you have the resources of the consortium with Penn and the other top LAC’s in the area.
If you want to do theater, unless you are so good that you have a good chance of making it professionally, you do NOT want to go to a school with a leading theater program. Those programs will attract the best, most talented theater students, and you’re going to be competing against them for roles. Imagine going to school with the next Meryl Streep (who, the story goes, was always cast in the leading roles, to the point where she herself was embarrassed). I have a feeling that if you had that kind of passion for theater, and had that kind of talent, you would be holding a different set of acceptances.
I think that most parents, especially those of us whose parents paid for college for us back in the days when it didn’t cost >300K for 4 yrs at a private college, feel a strong obligation to give to our children what our parents gave to us. But it wasn’t the same sacrifice! College costs have gone up far, far more than inflation. And because most parents want the best for their children, they often are willing to make financial sacrifices so that their children can attend the private college of their choice. However, most parents also are not completely transparent with their children about finances. So I think that under the circumstances, with you looking at free tuition at Swarthmore, vs essentially full tuition at the other schools (although congrats on the USC scholarship, too), you really need to have a very frank conversation with your parents. Since you have mentioned having to convince your parents about assisting with the cost of USC, and have mentioned working during college to help with expenses, I have a feeling that your family is not from the .001%.
For all these reasons, I think that you should take the amazing offer from Swarthmore. If you decide to go into business, you can do an MBA at Wharton or the like, which will give you all the same connections that you would have had from an undergrad degree from Wharton. You’ll get great roles in all the campus productions at Swarthmore, you’ll have small classes, you’ll still be able to go into Philly and even NYC for shows and city life, you can travel the world in the summers on the money you are saving, you can take classes at Penn and the other schools in the consortium.
Penn business major math requirement is described at Math - Undergrad Inside
Note that Penn’s math course naming differs from that of most colleges:
| Penn | Other Colleges | High School |
|---|---|---|
| MATH 103 Introduction to Calculus | Calculus 1 | AP Calculus AB |
| MATH 104 Calculus Part 1 | Calculus 2 | AP Calculus BC (remainder after AB) |
| Calculus for Business Majors 1 | Non-AP Calculus (that is less rigorous than AP) | |
| MATH 110 Calculus for Wharton Students | Calculus for Business Majors 2 | |
| MATH 114 Calculus Part 2 | Calculus 3 |
Yes! Swarthmore is easily on par with HYP in terms of academics and reputation. It’s always in the top 3 in the nation. There is no grad school or employer who is going to look askance at a Swat degree. And full tuition. Just amazing. You should be very proud of yourself.
Thank you so much for your thoughts! I will be visiting Swarthmore and UPENN this weekend, so I will see how I like it there, but I understand what you’re talking about. I honestly am not 100% sure of my parents financial status and they don’t like discussing it, but they didn’t seem concerned about the price of tuition/other expenses at all when discussing it with them. Swat is undoubtedly a great school though and you are absolutely right that it is likely my best choice especially if I plan on going to graduate school (although I am not sure if I will do that).
For doing theater, I also got accepted into NYU Tisch for their Acting BFA program. USC + NYU were the only schools I seriously applied to with rigorous acting program, and, although I got into both and am very passionate about performance, I don’t think I would be satisfied with just pursuing theatre.
Also, it’s not harder to meet people at LACs. They are small and inclusive. It is very easy to meet people, which is why some complain that LACs don’t allow people to feel anonymous. I speak as the parent of an LAC grad, who used to be very shy and quiet. She wanted to be at an LAC because she felt she would get lost in the crowd and wanted that close interaction with fellow students and professors. She got all that, but she was always able to find time alone when she needed it. Of course, you are your own person, but I do think you should try to get past the idea that LACs are like high school. They aren’t. And you got full tuition, which is truly impressive.
ETA: @appnanacj , another thing to consider… You must be a very special student. You will be a big fish in a small pond at Swat. You will likely be able to make yourself stand out and forge good relationships with professors, which are important for research opportunities and recommendations. Of course you will be able to stand out at the other three schools too, but you will have decidedly more competition to do so. Well worth factoring that in when thinking of long term goals.
Some have highlighted the Quaker Consortium as a benefit to attending Swarthmore. While true, there are some important limitations on non-Penn students:
Can only enroll in a maximum of 2 courses per term
May only take courses not regularly offered at your home institution
Consortium students are not permitted to use Penn’s student employment or career services resources
Penn and Swat have very different vibes. It’s good to visit both to see where you feel most comfortable. You really can’t go wrong with any of your college choices. Best of luck!
I really don’t like this saying when it is applied to the top level of smaller schools. You are surrounded by the top talent in the world. Not everybody can standout. Most of the students at Swat could standout at an average state flagship. At Swat they are just average.
That makes no sense at all. It’s like saying don’t go to any to any top-rated program because there will be better students who will get all the A’s and research opportunities.
Fair enough. However not many students at Swat will be awarded this particular scholarship. Maybe I should say the student will potentially be an even lovelier fish in a pond filled with other lovely fish😀.
I direct you to Elite Institution Congnitive Disorder. Malcolm Gladwell talks about it in “David and Goliath”.
Keep in mind when you visit Swarthmore that only juniors and seniors are in residence this semester, so the campus will probably seem fairly empty. It’s a gorgeous campus, completely different from Penn, which should be bustling especially if it’s a nice day. Given the disparity between Swat and the rest of your choices, it’s critical for you to speak with as many current students as possible, especially those who share your interests, both in academics and in theater.
I just watched Gladwell’s YouTube speech on Elite Institution Cognitive Disorder. It was very interesting and made a lot of sense. But it also undercuts half of the advice given on the “What school should I go to?” threads, where the advice given is to go to this or that school or program because it’s the best or highest ranked one.
The Swarthmore pond is smaller, but the other fish there are as big as they are in the other (larger) ponds.
As an analogy. Would you rather be the bench warmer on the top team, and only get just enough playing time that your parents can’t accuse the coach of simply taking their money for nothing in return, or would you rather be the starter on the less prestigious team, who gets tons of playing time and develops his skills?
When it comes to the arts, it’s not the same as, say business school or biology majors, or history majors, in terms of opportunities. But in performing arts, the best performers usually get the leading roles, first chairs, etc. If you’re planning on double majoring, and not sure of going into performing arts, you’re better off at an institution where you are going to get a chance at the lead roles.
I’d recommend visiting the schools in person on their admit weekend. When I was a student, Stanford covered the cost of the admit weekend visit, including airfare. I’d expect other schools do something similar. Some comments about Stanford are below:
Performance arts – Stanford has ~10 a capella groups, which each have a different theme. For example all women, comedy, top 40 pop, ethnic themes, etc. They also have dozens of dance and other performance arts groups. A good portion of students participate, mostly for fun rather than with professional hopes. Very few students are theater majors.
Future Goals – Getting good internships/jobs is well correlated with what field you plan to enter, so it’s difficult to give a general rule. Just going to Stanford (or other) doesn’t guarantee good internships/job offers. For example, CollegeScorecard reports median 1st year earnings of $136k for Stanford CS majors vs $24k for Stanford English majors. This relates to why CS is Stanford’s most popular major. Stanford makes it easy to switch between majors, if unsure. One area that may be different for Stanford from others is the proximity to Silicon Valley and opportunities at nearby tech companies within biking/driving distance (most students have bikes, not cars).
Diversity – Stanford places a lot of focus on diversity with cultural centers, opportunity for culturally themed dorms, required diversity classes, etc. And for the most part, students are very acceptin. However, highly selective private colleges tend to have poor SES diversity and relatively few URMs (not white or Asian). You can find specific numbers on various websites. For example, 18% of Stanford students received Pell grants. 24% reported being domestic URM compared to 55% domestic ORM.
Student Life – Most Stanford students live on campus and stay on campus, which can have somewhat of a bubble feel. However, that bubble is over 8000 acres and one of the largest campuses in the US. A minority of students do go to SF quite regularly. There are various unique dating/social traditions such as Marriage Pact (matchmaking test in which majority of students participate), Full Moon on the Quad, Screw Your Roommate (blind date), etc. I’m sure the other listed colleges also have unique traditions.
You won’t see snow on campus, yet many students do still see snow. For example, the Stanford Ski and Snowboard team described at https://www.stanfordskiteam.com/ mentions having 170 members. If you are willing to go on a road trip for a few hours, there are multiple options.
Thank you so much! Your comments are very helpful. Because of the few students majoring in Theatre, would you say the program is underfunded? It is great that Stanford has such a variety is performance arts groups though!
Stanford.
A list showing the number of Theater/Drama BA recipients in the most recent IPEDS year is below. USC is the only one of the list colleges that does not have very few theater majors. I don’t know much about the theater program, but expect it is well funded and taught by well known experts in the field. You can see the list of required classes at undefined Department | Stanford University Bulletin and course enrollment in those classes at Stanford University Explore Courses (choose 2019 for a more representative year). If you click on the instructor’s name, you can read more about their background. For example, 5 students enrolled in Advanced Acting, which was taught by Stephanie Hunt whose bio is at Stephanie Hunt .
Penn – 3 Theater Majors
Swarthmore – 4 Theater Majors
Stanford – 8 Theater Majors
USC – 50 Theater Majors
Given how small Swat is in comparison to all the other schools, I’m impressed that 4 students majored in theatre. And 50 at USC is not a surprise. OP, if theatre is really important to you, strongly consider USC. But I still nothing beats free tuition at Swat.