<p>assuming you have either the BA/BS + MArch or the BArch, what's it like the first fiveish years after college? I know that internship is three years, followed by the exam. i'm more concerned with the security of finding interns as well as a decent pay. is 30 - 35k for your first three years of internship a bit too much? also, apparently the average salary for all architects is 58k, which seems pretty damn good from all the negative comments i'm hearing from previous threads on this board.</p>
<p>"i'm more concerned with the security of finding interns"..... this fluctuates depending on the market. When my boyfriend graduated in Spring '02, he had a really hard time finding work, as did some of his classmates. By the time I graduated in '05, there were no such problems. New construction is very sensitive to economic trends, and architecture staffing is directly dependent upon how much new construction is being done.</p>
<p>On money- it's definitely enough to live on, but try not to rack up huge school loans either. People moan about how low the pay is because the pay is low <em>in relation to the educational requirements</em>, so graduates often end up with bigger loans than they can really afford. If you're not burdoned with debt like that, you can definitely live off an intern salary. You won't be looking to buy your own house or invest, but you won't be out on the street or anything either. In terms of that 30-35k number you put out there, I can neither confirm nor deny that without further information. Are you talking NY/LA/SF level city? Portland/Phoenix/Minneapolis? Or smaller? I know that I started out making 10k more in Los Angeles than graduates from the same year did in Phoenix (but my cost of living is correspondingly higher). By the time you would graduate, I would in general hope you make more than that, as my first full-time job was higher than that several years ago. But your prior internship experience and portfolio also play a role that makes it hard to determine what salary to expect.</p>
<p>the architect salary is livable. it is higher than the avg salary out there but much lower than the avg salary of professionals. starting out tends to be quite low mainly because academia only trains you how to design only...and that factor isn't always what is needed in the real world. pay in the field is highly dependent on work experience...so you'll earn a lot more after years of experience.</p>
<p>i'm going to mcgill (which is in montreal), but i would like to try my best to move to the ny area. yeah, it's in canada, but it's also supposed to generally be the best in the country and i believe it has a decent reputation in the north east area in the US. do you know at what age most architects start making the average given salary of 58k?</p>
<p>depends on big city vs. small city/rural area. Big city, I'd say early 30s. Smaller city or rural, late thirties. But those are just my guesses based on experience in Los Angeles.</p>
<p>Where are you getting the 58k figure from, anyways? I'd suggest looking at a survey that breaks it down by experience, i.e. Intern I/Intern II/Intern III/Architect I, etc. to get a better idea of issues of salary. There is generally a bit of a jump once you get licensed, and anyone not licensed isn't really an Architect, so any survey that's including unlicensed professionals in the same category as licensed Architects is going to be less informative.</p>
<p>I posted this once before, but here is the salary survey from Architecture Magazine. My sense is that salaries have gone up a bit since the article came out, particularly for new graduates.</p>
<p>rick</p>
<p>hmmm, that didn't work so well, maybe this will: <a href="http://www.architectmagazine.com/industry-news.asp?sectionID=0&articleID=471543%5B/url%5D">http://www.architectmagazine.com/industry-news.asp?sectionID=0&articleID=471543</a></p>
<p>The most telling paragraph about longterm prospects is this: "Architects with five years' experience (including the internship period) can expect an average starting salary of between $51,709 and $64,519. For 10 years' experience, the base compensation level increases significantly to an average range of $62,608–$79,919; that range reaches $72,678–$96,928 for architects with 15 years' experience.
The mean high salary for licensed architects with 15 years' experience (typically aged 38–42) is $96,928."</p>
<p>Let me try to help you. I worked for 17 years in the architecture business. I hired probably 50 or 60 diffferent architects. I am writing these messages because you people who are going into architectural studies to become architects do not have a clue of what real architecture is like. One tenth of one percent of all architects ever get to draw or design anything. In a firm like SOM which has some 900 people maybe 3 do 98 percent of the design. They probably have a minimum of 12 to 15 years experience. Within a firm their are no open contests or forums to find the best designers. It is basically limited to the few.
I know this because I was one of those limited few. The rest of the designers in the firm do basically minor door or window details.
After becoming one of the limited few and 14 years experience I really made no kind of money. That kind of experience, and that kind of position in any other profession makes you a very good living.
Let me put it this way. Achitecture is what you know about building construction. Lintels, mullions, headers, grade beams, and facia's, not freehand drawings and sketches. Most all design and drawing is done on CAD. What they have you do and learn in the architecture classes is nothing like you will do at an architectural firm. Example: You will train as a jockey, could be one of the best horse riders ever and start out shoveling manure and end up working in the stable. Pick another profession to pursue. I am telling you what very few really know, or will tell you about this profession. I am trying to save you, just like I wish someone would have done for me. If you need more specifics, write me I will explain more.
Spides:</p>
<p>spides:</p>
<p>you seem pretty motivated to get the true message out about architects. while i respect your opinion, most other sources that i've read don't make it seem as drastically difficult as you put it. can i get a little background information from you about your career? where did you attend for your degrees, where did you attend for your interns, how your salary went up and how long did that take. thanks.</p>
<p>Spides, I am sorry that you feel badly treated by the profession, but your experience does not seem consistent with mine. I would consider KPF a competitor firm to SOM, yet my experience could not have been more different. I had significant design responsibility from the time I walked in the door from graduate school (I had worked four years and gotten registered before going back to graduate school). I was the senior designer on a high rise six months after joining the firm. I was not top 3 in the firm, but perhaps top 12 to 15, and I made 90k in 1990. Not getting rich, but hardly what I would describe as 'no kind of money'. Top 3 at SOM had to be significantly more than that.</p>
<p>Working on large projects with teams of 6 to 10 people there was significant design responsibility going around. I had recent grads working on the design of the lobby, skin, landscape, custom light fixtures, elevator cabs, etc. Three people cannot do all the design work for a 600 person office, unless it is a hack firm, not what I would consider SOM.</p>
<p>I am also not sure if you are still in the profession, but the last ten years have seen a significant improvement in the pay and working conditions for new graduates. Demand for new graduates significantly outstrips the supply. Even though this is a very cyclical profession, demographics tell you that this will continue. I won't deny that this can be a tough profession at times, but I have not run across anything I would rather do. </p>
<p>rick</p>
<p>^ KPF and SOM? What do these abbrevations stand for? I would like to find out more information on these firms.</p>
<p>They used to stand for;</p>
<p>Skidmore Owings and Merrill
Kohn Pedersen Fox</p>
<p>These days they have dropped the names (since several of the name partners are dead) and they just go by the abbreviations.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.kpf.com%5B/url%5D">www.kpf.com</a>
<a href="http://www.som.com%5B/url%5D">www.som.com</a></p>
<p>rick</p>
<p>Glad you posted that rick. Your description fits my experience too. Designers at big firms are selected at the get-go and given incresing responsibility. KPF salaries would be comparable to SOM--as SOM's biggest offices are in Chicago? and SF?</p>
<p>^ how much are we talking about for those two big firms</p>
<p>as a starter?</p>
<p>^ "how much are we talking about for those two big firms"</p>
<p>I don't know about SOM, but I was told that KPF was making offers to new graduates of $43k to $45k this spring. I was also told that most graduates were asking for $60k, but they were not getting it at KPF.</p>
<p>rick</p>
<p>What about life outside the Architecture office? Is there adequate time to spend with your family, socialize with friends, make sure the wife doesnt walk out on you, that kind of thing... I've been told through the grapevine in my family that they spend a considerable time in the office beyond the regular 8-5 jobs. Also, I've been made aware that they an extensive amount of traveling. </p>
<p>In addition, the same family friends are not involved with the designing either; one friend handles licensing and code affairs, another at a different firm is a mediator between the firm and the layman [company]... but i dont know if they have a BS Arch, a B.Arch, or a Masters I or II, you get the idea. Didn't see that mentioned about so thought I'd ask. Thanks.</p>
<p>Aus</p>
<p>seems like principals usually have less free time since they have a lot of responsibilities. i think it really depends on where you work....most have regular hours but some firms just overwork their employees (especially starchitect firms). ultimately, you are the one to decide. you control your life. the profession doesn't control you</p>
<p>^ 40K doesnt sound too pleasant.</p>
<p>oh well...at least this is better than a school teacher.</p>
<p>I recommmend that you try to do your apprenticeship in the best design office you can worm your way into. I think the design training in those offices pays off when you start your own firm.</p>
<p>Many architects stay in those firms but I didn't. I did my five years and skedaddled.</p>
<p>Partners and Associates in big firms must put in long hours and extended travel duty. They still raise families--but it is a tough tough schedule. rick and marsden wrote good summaries about that track.</p>
<p>For me, balancing work and family was a matter of flexibility. I needed the freedom to choose the hours I worked. I gave that freedom to myself by opening my own firm the year my first son was born.</p>
<p>Having studied the career histories of modern architects like Corbusier, Wright, Sullivan--and the careers of my famous bosses/teachers, I went after high end residential work for the first decade of practice. High-end work pays very very well--15% to 25% of construction cost in Manhattan/Hamptons/Connecticut--where the simplest renovation costs $500K. High end work allows a young architect to explore and manipulate top end materials. it allows a young architect the opportunity to interact and attempt to persude wealthy, powerful clients in a very traditional, art-based endeavor. </p>
<p>The trick is making the transition up to the next level of practice--design-oriented, large scale work. I started making that transition, doing commercial work for residential clients, in the second decade of practice--but it wasn't unitl the third decade that I started to get large commercial commissions from walk-in clients--commissions with a ton of design freedom. </p>
<p>Interestingly, that transition arrived--as my sons left home and my priority focus flipped back to architecture. </p>
<p>Now that I am in this phase...I can see that if I prove myself in this arena, I should be able to get to those career-making public commissions in the next decade of practice. </p>
<p>Every morning, I walk the dog past one of my projects that is under construciton. I see the tower crane sliding across the dark sky and the guys at the top fixing the re-bar for the next pour. I pinch myself. The dang thing looks great!</p>