State Honors Colleges

Parents Forum
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<p>mikemac - I agree with you, but not completely. You say, regarding classes of 10-20 people, that: "if you think its just like going to Williams or Dartmouth or whatever at 1/5 the cost, it just 'aint so." and that HTC is "200 students taking some of their classes in an incredible setting of close contact with a faculty member, not 2000 students taking ALL of their classes in a great setting of 10-20 students." </p>

<p>But if you look at the common data set statistics, you will see that it is also not true for Williams and Dartmouth, the two schools you use as examples. At Williams, one-third of the classes are MORE than 20, and at Dartmouth, almost half the classes are more than 20.</p>

<p>But we can find lot of statistics to the contrary as well, and I'm not going to try to compare schools. A trend can be found if you sort the USN&WR tables by classes under 20: MOST of the higher percentage schools are private; MOST of the lower percentage schools are public.</p>

<p>But there are so many other factors. When I first started this process with my son, the elites sprang to mind: MIT, Rice, Brown, CMU (especially with CMU because of VERY, VERY strong legacy connections and the fact that we are annual contributors - not enough to make an admissions difference, but still shows an ongoing connection). My son's stats are somewhat high (NM-Commended, 1500-ish SATs) - not the best of the best, but in the top 3% of students by far - with excellent honors, activities, service and leadership, so some of these were not out of the question, especially at the lower end of the top 25-50 schools. We visited these schools and found out that they were not good fits for one or more of the following reasons: </p>

<p>[ul]
[<em>] My son did not want to attend a college smaller (or not much larger) than his high school.
[</em>] He wanted an academically diverse group of students, rather than a small slice of the SAT percentile ranks
[<em>] He wanted diversity in the majors offered so that in case he changed his mind about his current passion (happens, you know), he wanted lots of choices
[</em>] He had specific programs in mind that he wanted to major in, and most schools do not offer what he wanted
[li] He wanted a campus environment that he felt like he'd enjoy for the next four years; we visited a lot of schools in search of this criteria (lol).[/li][/ul]</p>

<p>Of course, his Mom and I kept pushing CMU or Rice. Nothing doing.</p>

<p>Not every kid is an LAC-type, and I don't think my son is one of them. I honestly think that where he landed is the best environment for him. There are a lot of opportunities there and there are some advantages (in terms of registration, private dorm rooms, first crack at internships, jumping directly into a major vs. the core curriculum classes, etc) of being a top dog. There are also major financial advantages, such as top merit aid. Many elites, while seemingly generous with financial aid, are not so generous with merit money; they don't have to be.</p>

<p>At Ohio, one of the things we did on campus was ask faculty members and other students about the attitude towards the HTC kids. In general it was deference and great, great respect. Two of the faculty people even said that in many ways these student have a lasting effect on some of the programs. I don't know if this is true or not, but I am convinced that one of the major reasons that my son was selected is that he has a lot of talent and skill in a certain area, and his department has plans to add a track in that discipline in the next year or so.</p>

<p>So, in conclusion, I will somewhat agree with your statement, but I also think that "eliteness" is not the whole story.</p>

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<p>Dig, I think that you have a great son, he knows what he wants and that is so important. Also he's able to see a good program for him and not look at the status of it all. Amazing kid.</p>

<p>If I remember he wants to go into some sort of media? OU is very well known in this area and the HTC is only going to help. My H and I loved Athens and OU, unfortunately our S disagrees. One of the reasons being that his GC was less than enthusiastic about OU.</p>

<p>If I may I would like to explain more about what my S is looking for. He wants to major in engineering. We may be looking in all of the wrong places but we are finding a pattern in schools with an engineering major. Either they are a big research university (usually with a honors colllege attached) or a smaller college with an emphasis in engineering.</p>

<p>The problems with the smaller schools are that programs other than engineering are weak to nonexistent. Another concern is the lack of women and diversity. We looked at a school last week that we liked, the ratio of men to women is 2.8:1. I don't know, isn't college supposed to be a time growing socially. I'm not sure if being in an enviroment predominantly male and white is condusive to this.</p>

<p>Therefore we have also looked at big research universities. More women and diverstiy for sure, but will he find people to connect with. Also as an engineering major will he find the atmosphere condusive to studying.</p>

<p>If there is a third or fourth kind of school that offers chemical/material science engineering, we are very open to ideas. I have to say that we are starting to hit a wall and the GC is not much help. He's very good but is not a specialist in engineering. LOL!</p>

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<p>Deb - I went to Georgia Tech for seven years and when I began it was almost an all-male school. We did spend a lot of our time looking for female companionship (lots of stories there that I won't go into). Your son might have a good case for a large public university. The diversity is there and some of these have very good engineering programs. You may also want to consider what would happen if your son finds another passion other than engineering (as I did after I worked as a co-op student and decided that engineering was definitely NOT what I wanted to be doing the rest of my life). I think you have to factor in $$$$ as well.</p>

<p>In Chemical Engineering, 7 of the top 10 schools (USN&WR) are large public universities (Minnesota, Berkeley, Wisconsin, Texas, Delaware, UIUC, Michigan). In Materials Engineering, 5 of the top 10 are publics (UIUC, Berkeley, Michigan, Penn State, and Ga. Tech). These might be ones to look at for your son. </p>

<p>I also have to put in a plug for Carnegie-Mellon as well. Great place.</p>

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<p>The state university vs. out of state schools or private schools is something that D (junior) is currently contemplating. She has grown up "bleeding orange and white" as a Vols fan and has always said she hoped to go to UT (Knoxville). Of course as she has gotten older, the academic side takes over and she has expressed much interest in Rhodes, Emory, Centre, and Wash U. UT is still in the running, though. Thanks to the HOPE Scholarship program funded by our state lottery, she will receive $4,000 per year if she attends any Tennessee college or university. A UT representative told her they will match the $4,000 per year if she comes into their honors program. Her plan at this time (she's just 16, so there is a great chance it will change) is to study International Relations, Political Science and Linguistics. She then plans to go on to law school. We have encouraged her to check out all of these schools and have already visited most of them. My H would love to see her stay in town and go to Vanderbilt, but her desire (understandably) is to "go away" to college. When I envision her in college, I see her at Rhodes (her current first choice), but then I can't help but think about the $ that could be saved toward law school if she decided to go to UT. She has stated numerous times that she does not want to graduate in debt, but I fear that could be unrealistic if she chooses a private, more expensive school. I guess at this point, we can only encourage her to consider all her options and have her apply for any scholarship programs available. I think I have been somewhat naive. She has always been an excellent student and I never even thought about the application process being so competitive, but once I found this site, I have come to realize how many wonderful, smart, gifted and talented students are out there. Please tell me I'm not the only one who occasionally feels sick to the stomach about the entire process.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Please tell me I'm not the only one who occasionally feels sick to the stomach about the entire process.

[/quote]
Only daily splashmom, only daily. D has Rhodes and Centre on her list also. Check out Centre Fellows scholarship on the Centre website. It is for Juniors. D just received hers. If admitted, she receives $6K a year. If your D likes those schools look at Furman and at Furman scholars. $4k a year for Juniors. (I'm always happy to share info.) If D's a soph all the better. More time to worry. ;)</p>

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<p>If rank is not important to you, take a look at Clemson, I believe they have a strong materials engineering program. Their National Scholars program is worth a look.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Check out Centre Fellows scholarship on the Centre website. It is for Juniors. D just received hers. If admitted, she receives $6K a year.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Thanks for the info curmudgeon and CONGRATULATIONS to your D for her Centre Fellows Scholarship. That is something we will definitely pursue. We are scheduled to visit Centre on April 30th and look forward to it. Thanks again! I'm so glad to have a place like this to chat with other parents.</p>

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<p>BG123456, I just found that new Clemson info,too and Clemson is ranked pretty highly itself,at least it is to me.LOL. Heckuva program, to say the least. Ran into an athlete there -swimmer I think, who loved it. D visited at their Spring Break . It was a ghost town and she wasn't savvy enough to fill it up in her imagination with throngs of bright orange clad Death Valley nuts. I am trying to get her to reconsider and if Furman makes it to her final "go round" I may just slip it in again. We had just come from Furman and for those who have not seen that school in the spring-well,let's just say it's "special". After that, Clemson looked like a non-flagship state school and she didn't give it a fair chance.</p>

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<p>Hey Curmudgeon, congrats to your D. That's great. As you know, I wish we had started our searching for programs like that earlier on. </p>

<p>Speaking of more time to worry, younger d is only 9. Only 9 years to go.</p>

<p>But I think I'll leave her alone for a few more years before we start looking seriously at colleges. ;)</p>

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<p>islandmom, since the thread we have co-opted is on state honor's ,care to share your Plan II impressions?</p>

<p>Sorry for the quasi-hijack.I'll try to get us back.</p>

31

<p>The University of Missouri Honors College has been tremendous. I have access to the professors, and all of my discussion groups are led by the professor, not the TA. The ocurse offerings are very interesting, and the intellectual climate is definetly there. That being said, I wish that the college was a bit more selective (I think an upper 1200s or low 1300s gets you in, along with top 10 percent or an essay). I also wish that they offered more honors sections of regular classes. That being said, the College is tremendous, especially the Honors Learning Community, which is 2 floors in a dorm of just Honors students. (2 floors/1 dorm, 2 dorms, 4 floors total). Thats only if you want to live there, though.</p>

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<p>repeat, and if I remember correctly Columbia is a great college town. Any thoughts ?</p>

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<p>Columbia is an excellent college town, really cool, great music scene, very comfortable to live in, mostly college kids/profs/staff, very good town relations (as most people here either work at or went to Mizzou). I'd like to see even more music, but I'm still happy with it. My only qualm about Columbia is that Mizzou/the town ar every conducive to students living off campus...which makes for some great hosue parties, btu also takes away a little bit from the dorm experience. Even so, Columbia is a really cool place.</p>

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<p>Are honors programs more beneficial to those in the humanities? When I look at the seminar classes and special honors classes that the university offers, all are humanities ones (with the exception of a couple in math and one in chem, none in physics). i'm currently a HS sophomore going to the Honors program at UWashington next year but am concentrating on the physical sciences and mathematics. Or in my case, should courses really matter, as long as i get research?</p>

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<p>I'm from SC, so I can give some insight on Furman. Furman is a great school that is a very hard LA college with a growing reputation to get into. I didn't like it because it felt like I would be going to another four years of high school.</p>

<p>Clemson does have a good Honors Program also, but ranked higher than that is the University of South Carolina Honors College, which I will be attending. The good thing about USC is that they give scholarship recipients in state tuition ranks regardless of where they are from. For all out of staters, take a look at the McNair Scholars Program and for instaters look at Carolina Scholars Program. I was lucky enough to be named a Carolina Scholar. Free laptop/first registration/full tuition/guaranteed first choice housing/etc...</p>

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<p>BCgoUSC, my D gets a piece of mail a week from U of SC.I just can't seem to get her to think past the )too her) large enrollment. The programs look great. Clemson originally made her list becase of it's smaller size and math science orientation. I'm holding your school in my pocket if D suddenly has a change of heart and wants a larger school.</p>

<p>She loves Barksdale HC at Ole Miss partially because the Dean can stand outside the door of the HC building and point-there's your dorm,there's math ,there's science,...that didn't work at Clemson or U of Arkansas (another great program by the way folks check it out. Big Wal-Mart money for foreign study.)</p>

<p>The problem for D is she is not that sold on having only southern options. That was not the way this was supposed to work. UVM looks interesting to her and we'll spend some time looking for others like that but the scholarships seem to be best at Southern Flagships Universities. Dang this is hard.</p>

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<p>I graduated from the Schreyer Honors College at PSU in May of 2004 -- it was an amazing experience. The honors classes make a big difference when you are a freshman and sophomore, and the priority scheduling allows you your pick of the myraid classes available at large state universities. The honors housing is great, and you still get all the fun things associated with a large state university. Moreover, the honors thesis that is required looks good to graduate and professional schools; my friends ended up with their pick of the top graduate and professional schools in the country, and some of them won exclusive scholarships (Marshall, NSF, NIH). Ultimately, it's more fun (in my opinion) to go to a big state school. I'm in graduate school now at Stanford, and despite what Stanford boosters might have you believe, the experience does not compare in the slightest to what can be had in an honors college at a state school.</p>

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<p>ditto to those advocating larger schools for engineering. The problem with many of the smaller LAC-type schools that also offer engineering is that the breadth of course selection just isn't there. There are so many different courses available in engineering that it would be a shame to be limited to just the few that a small school can offer. Of course, there are the smallish "tech" schools, but as pointed out, the availability of non-tech courses and non-tech, non-male classmates becomes very limited.</p>

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<p>Rice has a great engineering school, and other non-egineering classes are equally challenging. DD loves it.</p>

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<p>Thanks, excellent ideas. I see that we might have to make some summer plans to visit. Mizzo, I love that idea. Also Clemson, the thought of all that orange though!</p>

<p>SplashMom, I know that in TN everyone bleeds orange and white. My D and I have spent time on the UT campus and staying in the dorms. I was not very impressed with the dorms and the food was the worst of any campus I have been on. Really, the food was bad. I thought that the facilities were fine and the campus staff was great. But my D (a 9th grader) tells me that she going to pick her school based on the quality of the food! Seriously based on her experience at UT.</p>

<p>I've met engineering graduates from Penn State and I've heard great things about it. I thought that once my S decided on engineering, it would be easy to find a school. He has liked parts of a lot of schools we've looked at. I think I worry more. My H says, there isn't a perfect or bad choice, but lots of good choices. And that's not a bad thing.</p>