<p>I'm wondering...
A) As a whole... how do state honors programs stack up against more prestigious schools? What is it like experience-wise? i.e. Is the environment conducive to learning, and not just partying 24x7? And how intelligent are most of the people in these programs? Not being elitist, just wondering...</p>
<p>B) Should I still consider LACs for undergrad, if I'm interested in majoring in business/economics/science/math?</p>
<p>Thanks in advance.</p>
<p>B. Yes, undoubtedly.</p>
<p>why's that?</p>
<p>JerryH,</p>
<p>I hope you get a number of responses to your question since it will take many comments to cover such a big topic. As you know, there are many colleges and no one person has gone to all of them, so you need to get information regarding many colleges and extrapolate from that. But I'll try to start you off by telling you about what I know. Our son attends the University of Texas at Austin. He is enrolled as a dual major in business and Plan II Honors. Plan II is one of UT's liberal arts honors program. It is a separate major but many Plan II students pursue a second major in any one of the following: engineering, pharmacy, business, architecture, music, art, journalism, languages, math, the sciences, or one of the other majors offered at UT. Many Plan II students pursue graduate or professional degrees. </p>
<p>An average Plan II freshman class has 180 students, of which 70 are usually National Merit finalists and about that many more have commended status. (UT-Austin typically is in the top 5 colleges nationally in the number of NMFs attending each year. I think UT was number 2 this past year.) There are many other honors programs at UT - Dean's Scholars for science majors, Turing Scholars for computer science majors, liberal arts honors, and others. I'm not as familiar with these programs but most are smaller and more focused than Plan II.</p>
<p>My impression is that the honors programs at UT are rigorous and the students are serious and dedicated. They also have fun. Many of the honors students at UT live in the honors dorms. When I visited they had lots of activities and the students were studying, playing games, and socializing. Our son worked hard but he also had time to cheer for great sports and make new friends. He did not party 24/7 but I'm sure he knew people that did. They were not in the honors programs.</p>
<p>I can't tell you for sure but I suspect honors programs like Plan II are similar to Ivy League and other elite colleges and probably to the top LACs as well. The honors programs at State Us typically offer students better classes with some of the top professors, and most of the students could have gone to any college. Still, there are those who believe a top LAC, Ivy League, and other elite colleges offer advantages that a large public can never equal. That may be true but I doubt anyone will ever be able to answer that definitively. I think this is where fit comes in, and that you will know it when you see it.</p>
<p>check out Schreyer college at Penn State.
Excellent science and good business reputation.
Search other threads in this subject. Much has been said.</p>
<p>see the thread <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=190060&page=1&pp=15%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=190060&page=1&pp=15</a></p>
<p>I agree that it comes down to fit. My son was accepted to a wide range of schools (also interested in business). He ended up choosing an honors program at a State U (Schreyer). The b-school at PSU is well thought of and he loved the busy college town atmosphere. The students were very friendly and welcoming. He has signed up for classes (3 honors and two regular) and all but one are under 25 students. We (the parents) actually preferred some of the smaller LAC schools he was accepted to but we are happy with his choice. I think the opportunities for fun on a big campus persuaded him (golf course and ski mountain on site, music venues, club sports opportunities, restaurants, and yes...football). But he was also impressed with the caliber of students in the program, the individual attention he received when he visited, the honors courses offered (over 200), and the great perks. Visit schools and ask lots of questions. All honors programs are not equal!!</p>
<p>as has been said, the answer to your first question really depends on the school. i am quite familiar with schreyer honors college at penn state, so it will serve at the basis of my response.</p>
<p>youre still going to college at a huge state school. the honors college does provide a smaller community with which to become involved, but at the end of the day the school is still huge. it may be something you like; it may not. </p>
<p>not all perks are created equal. getting out of a few freshman lectures is great, but after those introductory classes honors sections are often few and far between. the upper-level economics classes at penn state are huge (75 students) and not particularly challenging (ive taken several). none of them have honors sections. scheduling first is nice, but its really not a reason to choose a school. there is real value in research opportunities, however. im not sure theres a better route to go (short of a place like caltech) in terms of research opportunities for undergrads.</p>
<p>socially, the average sat score at schreyer honors is 1430 and they have their own dorms, which tend to be a bit less urine-drenched than others. (east halls at penn state is perhaps one of the most disgusting places on earth.)</p>
<p>so is it worth it? its an individual decision. penn state honors wasnt for me. it was a fine choice for many of my friends. i guess i would approach the question like this: can you see yourself at the school if you didnt get into the honors program? if not, its probably not for you.</p>
<p>to your other question, by all means you should. the only reason someone shouldnt consider a liberal arts college is size preference. if you absolutely dont want to go somewhere that small, a lac isnt for you.</p>
<p>ericatbucknell - overall, a balanced summary but a bit on the negative side. My son has many friends at Penn State (like you) and most report that the school does not feel "huge" after you find your activities and groups. Also, each school (business, eng) has it's own identity and feel. Yes, I think it's important to realize that Schreyer is not a small LAC - you still need to feel comfortable in a big bustling environment. My son went to a big high school and he reported that some of the small campuses we visited were "boring" to him - especially if they were isolated. His rule was that if it was isolated, it would need to be big - kind of like a "small city" atmosphere. He liked Cornell and UVA but was not lucky enough to get in. The smaller LACs (like Bucknell and Lehigh) were unappealing to him (even though we liked them!... or maybe becuase we liked them!) So - to each his own. We hope he finds his way at PSU - he's a real independent and social type, so we're not really worried.</p>
<p>thanks for the advice guys :)</p>
<p>toneranger,</p>
<p>I agree with ericatbucknell's assessment of Penn State Schreyer Honors College. My son was accepted and chose it over a prestigious private school. Even though we had been sold that Screyers was going to be a small college community within a larger university, he was still at a huge state school with 38,000 students he would barely have had classes with in high school. He got straight A's, and worked hard, but ericatbucknell is right in that to love Schreyers, a student had to want Penn State and the whole atmosphere of a large, state school. Screyers was a horrible fit for my son who had thought he was getting the more caring feel of a small LAC. My son left Schreyers and transferred his sophomore year to a private school of 6,000 students and is very, very happy. </p>
<p>The bottom line to me, a Penn State grad, is that the honors program at PSU is for students who want to go to Penn State whether they get in honors or not. </p>
<p>P.S. East halls really are bad, I lived there freshman year.</p>
<p>Actually, my son wanted to go to UVA or Cornell (both large bustling environments) but was not lucky enought to get into either. Your first choices are not always available. I'm pretty sure he would NOT have chosen PSU if he did not get into Schreyer - but we think he'll do just fine there (he has no expectations of a small lac environment). I agree that it would be a "no brainer" for a student who would be fine to go to Penn State regardless of honors or not. However, kids with top profiles don't generally have PSU at the top of their list. Why choose Schreyer? In my son's case, the extra opportunities associated with honors along with a very good business school (Smeal) were just the right combo to seal the deal for him. He likes that his four of his five first semester classes are small. He likes priority registration (no - not a reason to pick a school but impt in a large school). He likes what he saw of the honors dorms. From talking to the kids we know in the program, I don't think it's fair to discount the value of Schreyer - just as I don't think it's realistic to think that it's a separate school. No, it's not an Ivy or a small Lac. But I think it's a valid option for smart kids who like big schools, especially those who are interested in some of their top programs like eng or business. We'll see when he gets there.</p>
<p>Toneranger, your son should do fine at Schreyers if he wanted UVA and a large state school environment. My son had applied to Bucknell, Dickinson, etc, so the large state school option was only a safety. And we were all led to believe that Schreyers was going to replicate a small LAC, and it really didn't - despite our hopes. </p>
<p>In trying to help the original poster, jerryhathaway, I think he wants to compare an honors state school program with a LAC. And from our personal experience with Schreyers, it is not going to be as similar to a LAC as Penn State wants their applicants to believe.</p>
<p>snajean - agree with your point. Although I think Schreyer staff might be moving away from the comparison to LACs a bit - at least we didn't pick it up very strongly on our last few visits. I absolutely agree that it's the wrong choice for someone who's looking for a small LAC experience (like Williams, Amherst or Dickinson). I think it might be a reasonable choice for someone looking at at large Ivy like Cornell or Penn - especially if money is an issue. Or for kids who are looking at UVA, UMD, UNC, etc. In fact, many of the students we met at our visiting students day turned down Cornell for Schreyer. Our son would have liked to have the choice but I'm not sure how it would have turned out if he did. We were concerned that the Cornell environment might have been a bit too demanding for our son (who is very smart but seems to need a good amount of leisure time). We know someone who dropped out after a year there due to the pressures. In any case, I'm glad that you're son is doing well at his new smaller private school.</p>
<p>You are right on target, toneranger. Good point about the smarter kids who want big schools and might want to compare these state school honors programs with a Columbia or Penn. </p>
<p>I hope you have stayed with this thread jerryhathaway. Visits to a couple LAC and a few honors programs at state schools will really help you. Please don't make our mistake and go in the summer when it is a deserted campus though. Good luck to you.</p>