<p>
[quote]
I don't know any teachers, even non-members, who support vouchers. I'm not saying there aren't any, I just don't know any of them.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What is your definition of teachers? Only the ones who work with you? Are you excluding teachers who teach at a university? </p>
<p>Here's a rather unknown one: Milton Friedman.</p>
<p>"Are you excluding teachers who teach at a university? "</p>
<p>xiggi the arguement is k-12 and public education. Man, such stanch conservatism at such a young age. You will have bitter down before your 25. Me? It wasn't till around 40. </p>
<p>Do you have a sibling who feels the way you do? That way you can battle my children (the dirty hippies) into the next generation and beyond. It's unfair if there's two of them and only one of you.</p>
<p>
[quote]
What is your definition of teachers? Only the ones who work with you? Are you excluding teachers who teach at a university? </p>
<p>Here's a rather unknown one: Milton Friedman.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If you'll read my statement again what I said was that do not personally know any teachers who support vouchers. I did not say there are none.</p>
<p>Also, Opie is right. This debate is with regard to K-12.</p>
<p>Lakeside as they do a fine job for the children of the well to do in the greater Seattle area, but they aren't set up in anyway to deal with any child who does not fit their ideal student.</p>
<p>Actually Lakeside does run a successful outreach program for the ( for 40 years) disadvantaged students who aren't necessarily acheiving in public schools
ttp://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/2003327000_webcolldisadvantage.html
(my daughter was suggested for the program- but as it intitially entailed all of her summer- I couldn't convince her to participate)</p>
<p>Additionally while there are not * enough* private school slots for students with special needs ( and not everyone can do what some friends in Seattle did- which was move to a district with more appropriate programs or move to a district that clearly doesn't have appropriate programs, so that private education is paid for)
For some students, there aren't slots to serve them in public schools either- they may be assigned the school, but it doesn't meet their IEP- or they are told there isn't space in the only building that has a program for their disability.</p>
<p>The reason why my oldest attended private school K-12 was * because she has "special needs", which the district flat out told me, they didn't address*
Not that they paid for the private school, but at her elementary school- there were lots of kids that had learning differences- ADD/ADHD, dyslexia ( which the school district doesn't even recognize), dyscalculia, even Tourettes and Aspergers.</p>
<p>Same with her middle/high school. They have learning specialists on staff, and there are so many accomodations the teachers offer in the classrooms to make learning relevant, and accessible for everyone, that you don't need to have an IEP or 504 plan.</p>
<p>Also- the reason why my youngest attended private school for her first 3 years ( and we are not a "private school family' for those who are just tuning in- blue collar- no college- low middle income) was also because she has "special needs" that couldn't be met in public schools.</p>
<p>In retrospect, I wish I had kept her in private school despite the cost, but she really wanted some of the additional resources, like Girl Scouts, and sports teams, that the larger public schools had, that her very small private school didn't- ( her private school- as it was very new and hadn't yet built up much of a scholarship fund- was hard for us to afford as well)</p>
<p>and it is true, there aren't enough private schools to pick from- they are very competitive for admittance- or you have to wait in line for 13 hours ;)
<a href="http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/303748_carewait15.html%5B/url%5D">http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/303748_carewait15.html</a>
There are several private schools that operate by lottery & while it is "fair" it is more than frustrating, when you have found the perfect school for your kids- and you get the skinny envelope</p>
<p>"Can you accommodate a student who needs help with learning skills?</p>
<p>Yes, if we feel that the student can manage the challenges of our program with the accommodations that we offer"</p>
<p>It's an IF at Lakeside, not a certainty. </p>
<p>"services are not mandated and Lakeside does not provide an ongoing special education program."</p>
<p>Again my point. Lakeside is a wonderful school, but it is a selective school as you know doubt know. If a voucher system exists, would they have to take anyone OR could they continue to decide who can manage their programs. Could they still exclude someone who does not meet their standards? </p>
<p>Vouchers aren't going to solve anything. They will just create a new set of problems. We tend to look at our environment and figure that's the way it is everywhere. However, how does a voucher system play out in Pomeroy, WA?
In a few months Pomeroy (pop approx. 2,400) won't have a doctor at their hospital and is searching for a new one that likes rural life. How does a voucher help pomeroy kids? Or do they matter? </p>
<p>voucher poeple allways seem to argue about intercity kids, well, there's alot of kids out there in the sticks too that have needs. How do they help a kid who has a choice of THE elementary, THE junior high and THE high school. Or do they matter? If your next choice is 100 miles away and you have one car, that dad needs for work, how does a voucher help you? Or do you matter?</p>
<p>I've never understood how vouchers would work. If it just causes the "good" schools to be overcrowded it doesn't help anyone. In Westchester County each town (more or less) runs its own school system. What happens when every kid in Yonkers opts to go to Scarsdale? How many does Scarsdale have to take?</p>
<p>Again- I wasn't talking about vouchers & I do realize that some schools manipulate the system- in Wash (DC- according to Jess Hagopian- he of infamous mother fame-;)Oh</a> Amywhere he taught school through Teach for America or some such) he says many students were "released" from the private schools early in the school year- where the public schools were forced to accept them. </p>
<p>Now I don't know the particular instances- regarding that- why they were expelled- but I do know that low income families and students deserve a choice of schools just as higher income families do. </p>
<p>If the private schools- assuming they have been in existence for a while - not like 2nd Ds school which had just opened, have diversity as a value- they already have good scholarships for low income students. There aren't "enough" private schools for all that would choose them- which makes the few that do exist very competitive- which is why I support charters.</p>
<p>My oldest attended the same school Bill Gates/Jeff Bezos et al. send their kids to and while they * ;) oh duh - are full pay & I assume give a great deal of money toward scholarship funds, as well as encourage others to do so, we probably paid about as much in tuition, as we have in testing and tutoring for her sister who was in public school - but not getting services * and I never even hired the attorney- that a public school teacher who is a friend- suggested I do</p>
<p>I also am curious- if giving teachers more money- is going to help them teach better- how Opie do you explain why the students at the Marysville high school- are by far Caucasian ( about double the % at Ds school)- not any more low income than an urban school(about the same as Ds school), have a lower teacher ratio( 20:1 compared to about 24:1) & the teachers earn the 2nd highest salary in the state( Seattle is about at 14th for salary)
- but the test scores are lower than Ds inner city school ( math and science WASL scores are particulary low)not to mention the graduation rate is lower?</p>
<p>It really worries me- we already don't have great state graduation numbers, considering the income and education background of our population and next year the WASL will be required for graduation.
What is going to happen to those kids? Are we just going to lower the qualifying standard?- its only a 10th grade level as it is.</p>
<p>Yes but low income isn't the only issue with regard to private schools and vouchers. How many private schools are prepared in both in terms of facilities and staff to comply with Special Ed Law? </p>
<p>Private schools are not required to accept students with IEP's or 504's as I stated last night. Public schools are required to provide an education to everyone who lives in that school's zone.</p>
<p>I know that the system doesn't always work well. There are thousands of children being left behind every day within blocks of the White House for goodness sake. I won't argue that. But vouchers are going to be meaningless for the families of the vast majority of those kids. </p>
<p>If parents attempt to use the money for parochial schools the ACLU will be all over it, and rightfully so. There would be a serious separation of church and state issue. Since the vast majority of private schools in America are in fact parochial how much good is a voucher going to do most families? And if their kids qualify for Special Ed there's very little chance that a private school is going to take them. </p>
<p>Also, the kids that Jess Hagopian mentioned who were released from the private schools. There is no requirement of due process, they are private schools they can accept, expel, or reject anyone they please. If vouchers come with the conditon that this no longer can be the case, how many private schools are going to accept them? For God's sake, that's why private shools exist, so people can avoid having their children go to school with "those kinds of kids."</p>
<p>
[quote]
xiggi the arguement is k-12 and public education. Man, such stanch conservatism at such a young age. You will have bitter down before your 25. Me? It wasn't till around 40. </p>
<p>Do you have a sibling who feels the way you do? That way you can battle my children (the dirty hippies) into the next generation and beyond. It's unfair if there's two of them and only one of you.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Opie, I'll try to say this is the nicest and most congenial way I can. You have made two comments about "such as stanch conservatism" at such young age, and I believe that you did not meant them to be complimentary! </p>
<p>Inasmuch as I'd love to continue to spar with you on our so-called political differences, there are no reasons why we should do it in this context. As I wrote before, you believe in the work of the various unions, and I am sure that millions do share your views. I prefer to align myself with people who have a different opinion of the unions. So, let us agree to agree to disagree on that issue. Once that is done, it is easier to leave the idle rethoric and focus on facts. </p>
<p>And real facts do tell a different story from the biased and self-serving material that can be found on BOTH the Evergreen Freedom Foundation and the WEA. Taking the most extremist viewpoints from both sides serves no purpose. Not different from the majority of Americans who are centrist with slight departures to the left or the right, I like to look at both sides for ... constructive positions and ... actions. It is in this vein that I lament the actions of obstructionists and groups that oppose everything new out of mere principles. And, those "principles" are what derail any attempt at meaningful debates. </p>
<p>The issues of vouchers and school choice are particularly prone to misinformation and blatant misrepresentation. Many claims --such as Wharfrat's-- are easily debunked by checking the available research. However, one has to be willing to make the effort to read the research. Despite the remark about the opinions of university professors not being relevant in this debate, I believe that one could educate himself by checking the research of Hoxby or Carnoy, and many more who have researched the various educational systems on an international basis. However, it does take time to weigh all the factors that contribute to our current antagonistic educational world, and this from Washington, DC all the way to ... the Marysville School District. </p>
<p>For what is it worth, I do not view vouchers as a panacea to our system. However, just as a variance of a more extended school choice, it "could" be part of a massive overhauling of our system. </p>
<p>As an additional note, please consider that school choice DOES exist in this country. The unfortunate part is that it is only available to the most fortunate --in all senses of the term-- among us. Families with sufficient means DO have the choice between public and private education. You should further consider that this "fortunate" group does not necessarily support a system of vouchers. Private schools are just that ... private. An extended system of vouchers would also bring an extended system of controls. Do you truly believe that private schools, especially the schools founded on very religious principles, look at an intrusion of the government with a keen eye?</p>
<p>Lastly, it is easier to simply ignore what is happening in our schools and ... give up. After all, has anyone really been able to challenge the real "powers" that contribute to the malaise? Has anyone found it pleasant to challenge a school board or a power hungry superintendent? On a personal note, I am years away to having to deal with such issues, and I believe that I will be able to select the best option for my children, when that time comes around. In the meantime, I could simply roll my eyes and spend my time dealing with more pressing issues. Yet, I decided that THIS is an issue worth fighting for. Even, if it means that I'll have to walk around with the mark of "staunch conservative" deeply branded on my forehead. </p>
<p>At least, I can smile at the thought that people who refuse to change the status quo out of principle are called progressive and that the ones who hope for positive changes are derided as ... conservatives.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Many claims --such as Wharfrat's-- are easily debunked by checking the available research.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What claims have I made that are "easily debunked?" You say this but you have yet to provide any evidence.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Private schools are not required to accept students with IEP's or 504's as I stated last night. Public schools are required to provide an education to everyone who lives in that school's zone.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Indeed, you have made that point in this thread and in the previous ones that discussed school vouchers. As it was then, your point is still highly debatable. For instance, why don't we look at one city that has been in the center of the voucher debate for a long time: Milwaukee!</p>
<p>Special-education enrollment not so open</p>
<p>By AMY HETZNER
Monday, February 19, 2001</p>
<p>Open enrollment wasn't even part of Frank Gratke's vocabulary until some unknown force, he believes, led him to the steps of the St. Francis School District two years ago.</p>
<p>Over sloppy Joes and a tour of the Deer Creek Elementary School swimming pool, St. Francis administrators encouraged him -- and other parents -- to take advantage of the public school choice law on behalf of his son, Kevin.</p>
<p>But when he applied for his son to attend St. Francis schools, both the St. Francis district and Gratke's own South Milwaukee School District turned him down.</p>
<p>And the state Department of Public Instruction told the districts they could do so under the state's open enrollment law.</p>
<p>State officials contend special-education students are, in effect, being treated no differently than any other students under the law.</p>
<p>Critics say otherwise. And they point to the *47% denial rate of applications from special-education students * in the first year of open enrollment vs. a 20% denial rate for students overall.</p>
<p>ITA with the not serving students with IEPs
my oldest who is gifted AND SPED, didn't qualify for an IEP- as she was not two years BEHIND in every subject- but also never would she qualify for gifted as she was not two years AHEAD in every subject.</p>
<p>( god I get tired of posting the same info)
so that is why we had to resort to private- even though we got flak from our family & even though the small amount we were charged still meant that we weren't able to fix up or move from our "fixer upper".</p>
<p>Her sister who DID qualify for an IEP, also wasn't legally served, despite my quitting my job so that I could be chair of the parent group and in the building every day.
There also are many SPED students who have very minimal services, and who aren't allowed to have the same choice of public schools that students without IEPs have. Last year for instance- quite a few students were in the news, when they were removed from schools they had been attending, and assigned to others- without their consent.</p>
<p>Private schools may not accept all sped students, and may not be appropriate for all sped students- but neither do publics</p>
<p>"I also am curious- if giving teachers more money- is going to help them teach better- how Opie do you explain why the students at the Marysville high school- are by far Caucasian ( about double the % at Ds school)"</p>
<p>But emerald how are your minorities broken out? And do all minorities score the same across the board? ;) I think if you check you'll find certain minorities score at or better than caucasians in WA. Other minorities score extremely low and have low graduation rates. Without naming races, to avoid the "racist tag" that would follow the information is there at the OSPI website. It can take a while to sort through. Certain minorities do very well school wise and others have less than a 50% chance they'll be around to graduate. </p>
<p>Let's see Seattle's on time grad rate for 2005-06 is 58%, the ville's 69%. Super seniors Seattle 63%, the ville's 76%. While the numbers aren't wonderful, they are improving and from appearance seem to be better than Seattles. There are four times the percentage of a minority in the ville that has the lowest grad/highest dropout rate of all races. They are working very hard to correct that and graduated their largest group last year, after some years of none graduating at all. Those graduates can recieve a free college education from their community. They are making progress and I don't want to knock them. It's a great accomplishment to overcome what the statistics had previously shown. It's taken alot of work and cultural understanding to make improvements to their grad rates. I don't see the need to knock them to justify some argument that was similar to what I heard a few years ago. </p>
<p>The sped % is the same, reduced lunch is slightly different, teacher to student ratio is roughly the same 17:1, average experience the same, masters about the same, dropout rate higher in the ville. Testing wise if you only use the wasl, we're close in reading, behind quite a bit in math. trends are upward, just like Seattle. However, is that because everyone is now teaching the test? </p>
<p>"- not any more low income than an urban school(about the same as Ds school), have a lower teacher ratio( 20:1 compared to about 24:1) & the teachers earn the 2nd highest salary in the state( Seattle is about at 14th for salary)"</p>
<p>I would say look at the state's website for information. I have a good idea where this came from..:) I think they are far from second now. I've played this game before with another group and their special "math". </p>
<p>"- but the test scores are lower than Ds inner city school ( math and science WASL scores are particulary low)not to mention the graduation rate is lower?"</p>
<p>Doesn't your daughter attend Garfield? ;) isn't Garfield the gifted school these days for Seattle? ;) Or is it the same demographic as it was in the 70's when they used to smash out our bus windows after a game and holler death threats from the stands? I remember congraulating you for the 29 NMF garfield produced a few years back. Are you trying to tell me that's an average Seattle school? ;) I actually found the grad rates to be lower for seattel schools than my own, based on the state's information. </p>
<p>Oh, and by the way, you may not be aware some schools here made the NCLB failure list becuase their sped students did poorly on the wasl all other groups met or passed the standards. I guess there must be some testing standard for the retarded.. beats me how they can decide one standard for all the different types of retardation. Can you figure that out? </p>
<p>"It really worries me- we already don't have great state graduation numbers, considering the income and education background of our population and next year the WASL will be required for graduation."</p>
<p>It worries me too, as long as we allow our legislators to mandate unfunded education "reforms" we'll always have a problem. If you want to help kids with extra things, you gotta pay somebody or buy the things to do it. </p>
<p>"What is going to happen to those kids? Are we just going to lower the qualifying standard?- its only a 10th grade level as it is."</p>
<p>I don't know. But I am sure that getting rid of the teacher's unions and creating a voucher system will solve that problem overnight, give us whiter whites, straighten our teeth, improve our gas mileage, reduce our weight by 20 pounds and allow us to run a sub 4 minute mile. If only we'd done it sooner. </p>
<p>Em, I really don't want to go to battle with you, I am proud for you what you have been able to do for your kids and I am glad there's a school like Garfield (new Garfield, not the old one) in the district. There's alot of reasons kids don't make it through the system, singling teachers one way or another isn't going to fix anything. They work with what they can, they don't make the orders (wasl, NCLB) they just have to try and make it work.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Indeed, you have made that point in this thread and in the previous ones that discussed school vouchers. As it was then, your point is still highly debatable. For instance, why don't we look at one city that has been in the center of the voucher debate for a long time: Milwaukee!</p>
<p>Special-education enrollment not so open</p>
<p>By AMY HETZNER
Monday, February 19, 2001</p>
<p>Open enrollment wasn't even part of Frank Gratke's vocabulary until some unknown force, he believes, led him to the steps of the St. Francis School District two years ago.</p>
<p>Over sloppy Joes and a tour of the Deer Creek Elementary School swimming pool, St. Francis administrators encouraged him -- and other parents -- to take advantage of the public school choice law on behalf of his son, Kevin.</p>
<p>But when he applied for his son to attend St. Francis schools, both the St. Francis district and Gratke's own South Milwaukee School District turned him down.</p>
<p>And the state Department of Public Instruction told the districts they could do so under the state's open enrollment law.</p>
<p>State officials contend special-education students are, in effect, being treated no differently than any other students under the law.</p>
<p>Critics say otherwise. And they point to the 47% denial rate of applications from special-education students in the first year of open enrollment vs. a 20% denial rate for students overall.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What Wisconsin has is open enrollment for PUBLIC schools. Charter schools still operate under the public realm, though with somewhat different parameters.</p>
<p>You still have not provided any evidence that totally private schools are required to accept special needs students under a voucher system.</p>
<p>xiggi,</p>
<p>"I'll have to walk around with the mark of "staunch conservative" deeply branded on my forehead. "</p>
<p>With all honestly, I am a bit surprized. It was not made to put you down. It's just a bit unusal to come across. It makes me wonder about how you came to all these opinions so early. Right or wrong (whose to say) it is unusal for someone to have such strong feelings at such a young age. My thoughts and feelings have changed many times over the years as my life has changed. I never so strongly held an opinon I wouldn't let go of if I could be reasonably convinced of another way would work for the most people, not just the few. </p>
<p>"At least, I can smile at the thought that people who refuse to change the status quo out of principle are called progressive and that the ones who hope for positive changes are derided as ... conservatives."</p>
<p>Oh what a cross to bear. ;) I don't know if I would call myself progressive, I would use the term reluctant, instead. I am reluctant to change things where I haven't seen a conviencing arguement to make the change for. </p>
<p>You already believe, what you have to do is put it together so I believe you. So far, that hasn't really happened. Keep trying. So far this is like the healthcare debate, solutions aplently, reality exempted from the solutions. Just as in healthcare, everybody wants the other guy to do something and that will fix the problem... overnight. Convience me that there is a way providing for human nature, that things can change and fairness and honesty are garanteed. </p>
<p>I used to think a bit like you, till I got out there and found milton's theories while talked about..aren't what goes on. The real world and some of the people in it, made me understand why economists can write theory till the cows come home. Doesn't mean people actually practice them.</p>
<p>A voucher system is a threat to the monopoly system currently in place which is why I think the unions are against it. They don't want to give up the monopoly or to have any power in the hands of the parents. I think we should empower parents more. I think parents should have more of a choice in how their educational tax dollars are spent. Right now for many, especially the poor to middle class, the choice of school comes down to just one which is determined simply by geographic location. I think the idea of some competition, not just from private schools but also from other publics, will only improve the educational system. It'll force administrations to make real, effective changes in the eyes of the consumer (parents) or basically go out of business. I believe the law of supply and demand will fill the necessary niches in the most effective way.</p>
<p>I think unions are against vouchers because they see money leaving the school while their fixed costs remain much the same. Still have to heat the buildings, unless you lose a whole classroom's worth of kids you still need teachers etc. Our district has several magnets and I think that has some of the advantages of vouchers while keeping the tax dollars in the system.</p>
<p>I know of a school district in my metropolitan area that solved that problem by renting out space in its emptying buildings to other entities that needed classroom or office space, including a private school. Freedom of contract means that there are ways to divide even big bundles of assets and liabilities to the advantage of all concerned: but only if there IS freedom of contract in that regard. Most state schoolteacher unions, for example, promote legislation that bans public school districts from renting out space to charter schools, even though that would be a good idea for the taxpayers on economic grounds. </p>
<p>Tax dollars should go where learning is taking place. Children learning has positive externalities, and I am willing to pay for that to happen whether the teachers are government employees (or unionized) or not.</p>
<p>ucla_dad,</p>
<p>I agree with those sentiments expressed in 296. A monopoly it is. Now, I do see a couple of problems with vouchers, pragmatically:</p>
<p>(1) As mathmom pointed out, affording or being tuition-aided via voucher is not the same thing as meeting a private school's entrance test & other admissions requirements, nor will it enable a family to overcome the small supply, high demand of excellent privates.</p>
<p>(2) Some will make a Church/State issue out of this, claiming that public funds are supporting religious education.</p>
<p>So yes, I believe in parental choice, major. Willing minds can find a way to make choice a part of educational structure.</p>
<p>However, I want to bring everybody back to the reality of what schools have become in large States with massive bureaucracies: they are reflections of those bureaucracies, with all the inefficiencies & dysfunction & inextricable mismanagement that is often a by-product. Someone used the word "system" in an earlier post. Sounds like another big Duh of mine, but most people not working in a public "system" like that do not appreciate how much The System is now dominant & the education subordinate. (Like the example I mentioned earlier of the teacher spending excessive classroom time instructing students on how to fill out forms. Not college admissions forms. Not K-12 standardized test forms even. But district administrative forms.)</p>
<p>My point is this: Charters have already begun making serious inroads in the survival of brick-and-mortar non-charter schools. It's just attrition, though. The site schools are experiencing a diaspora. But The System has paralyzed those site schools who have a bare enough attendance quotient to remain standing. Competition has not improved them, because the current system will not allow them in practical terms to improve in the way that families (legitimately) demand.</p>
<p>"to have any power in the hands of the parents. I think we should empower parents more. I think parents should have more of a choice in how their educational tax dollars are spent. "</p>
<p>Don't you vote? School board, elected officals make the rules. Last time I checked "we" elect them and unelect them to serve our needs. In our state you need a supermajority to pass any school funding issues. I think the voting booth gives you the opportunity to have a say. </p>
<p>If not enough people buy into what you're selling, you lose. So far, the idea has lost many times over. So either the message isn't clear or people understand the message and do not want it. I think in WA it has lost 5 or 6 times. </p>
<p>Your hands aren't tied and there's not nothing you can do, you just have to convince enough people your ideas will work. It's not the opposition's fault for opposing, it's the provoucher side that hasn't convienced enough people to their theory of how things should be. </p>
<p>I would think the last general election proved that if enough people tire of a certain situation, they will effect change via the voting booth.</p>