Steve Jobs Blames Education Problems on Teacher Unions

Parents Forum
121

<p>"In other words a union? Or is it uncomfortable to be lumped in with truck drivers? "</p>

<p>Not uncomfortable, just inappropriate & insufficient.</p>

<p>And a truly professional organization would & should be better representing professional educators, including setting standards, doing the evaluating that (I agree) is not necessarily best left to the public. Other professionals in the same field should decide who is performing professionally & competently, without strings to politicians, local school boards, or labor unions.</p>

122

<p>...and the same professional assocation reviewing teachers, Opie, should be reviewing administrators as well.</p>

123

<p>"FF, the union did not decide to lay off your wife, the administration did."</p>

<p>No, but the union protects those who don't deserve to be protected.</p>

<p>-- </p>

<p>"All the others with more time teaching are deadwood?"</p>

<p>Of course not, but there is plenty of dead wood to be found such that the entire cut could be directed at the dead wood and there would still be dead wood remaining. As I mentioned, some of the teachers sleep on the job; others abuse the system by taking "grief" days for more funerals of parents than they possibly could have, others take leaves of absences for fake illnesses. And this is not rumor or speculation, the teachers who do this are quite open about it as they teach the new guys the ropes about how to milk the system - and the union president right in there with his advise on how to get days off by calling in sick.</p>

<p>--</p>

<p>"The funding problems aren't because of the union"</p>

<p>No, but as I said above, if it were not for the union protecting teachers based on seniority, no quality teacher would have to fear for his/her job.</p>

<p>--</p>

<p>"you really have absolutely no garantee your spouse would be held on without a union in place. Unless of course you're the prinicpal."</p>

<p>On this I am positive - the principle told the state that her best teachers were the newest ones; she has already made it clear that she will bend over backwards to try to keep the new ones.</p>

<p>-- </p>

<p>"You might find down the road that the organization you bash now, might be your spouse's only support (besides you) in a bad situation."</p>

<p>I am confidant that she will never have to hide behind a seniority system to maintain employment.</p>

<p>But, the main point of this discussion is not fairness to the teachers but an improved education system and the role that unions/tenure play in it. The bottom line is that in my wife's district, the quality of education for the kids will go down when the teachers who are still motivated to teach are let go and their back-ups will be the dregs that the administration is currently trying to shuffle around into roles where they can do the least harm. Next year, if they have to take primary teaching roles, it will be the kids who suffer. I'm sure my wife will be fine.</p>

124

<p>
[quote]
her best teachers were the newest ones

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I recall from my childhood that the teachers who understood me best (when most women didn't have career opportunities other than teaching and schoolteacher unions were still weak) were the teachers with the most experience. But that has changed. Studies of teacher</a> incompetence show that these days the best teachers tend to bail out of the occupation faster than the worst. Some great, dedicated teachers, like the teachers I had when I was a kid, endure the system and stay on board for the children--if the system lets them stay on board. But the incentives in the current system are such that the statement quoted above is true, on average, across the country: the deadwood is concentrated among the teachers with the greatest seniority, and they can crowd out the teacher with the best ability to help struggling children.</p>

125

<p>I am in agreement with those who are skeptical of allowing principals unilateral power to pick and choose the "best" teachers. Schools are not exempt from the types of alliances and political maneuvering one finds in corporate businesses. Finding a capable principal is at least as hard as finding a capable teacher in our current culture with the stresses of NCLB, etc. I would suspect something if a principal told her own superiors that she would keep the "new" teachers and not the "old." A principal who has a strong educational vision and supports his or her staff is rare.</p>

126

<p>But doofus principals can only survive in a system in which most schools face little serious competition. Let capable teachers form new schools, and some schools will dump their lousy principals and keep their good teachers as a competitive response. Let learners shop, and everyone in the system will be treated better.</p>

127

<p>babar, it's so good to see you on this thread. Haven't seen you posting recently. :)</p>

<p>....Rarer still is the principal who knows how to hire in the first place. That requires knowing your student community & parent community, as well as(obviously) knowing the strengths of the various applicants. Vision, babar, is a great word, & I agree, missing among way too many principals. I recently (a year ago) interviewed for a classroom job teaching middle-school Eng/Lang Arts. I was astounded to get immediate feedback from the principal that my goals of student fluency in writing were way too rarefied for this group of students. (!) (And that it would be better if I understood that the students would not be interested in getting very far or meeting my goals for them.)</p>

128

<p>I am aware of the study cited in post 124. I'm one of the unusual ones in that I came back to education after a long hiatus -- although when I left much earlier it was not due to disillusionment but to economics. (I needed to survive, fancy that!)</p>

<p>I will not return to the classroom full time unless it's a Private environment or a radically restructured public environment in which I have authority & some (appropriate, professional) control as a teacher.</p>

129

<p>Ah ,yes. The burnout factor or economic reasons. How common they both are for losing teachers.</p>

130

<p>I love the way you write, epiphany! What a loss for those students who didn't even have the opportunity to reject this gift!!! Principals have become managers, not educators. Everyone seems to want quantifiable results (ELA scores, SAT scores, etc.) for their tax dollars. When it's all about the product and not about the process, everyone loses. The union is the least of the problems associated with education. Teachers are easy targets. Administrative demands based on government regulations and fears of lawsuits tend to dictate most decisions.</p>

131

<p>"no quality teacher would have to fear for his/her job."</p>

<p>Sure they do. Jealousy is a funny thing. Good teachers fear for their jobs all the time. Everytime they have to say "NO" to an administrator to protect the education process, or fight a school board over things like creationism. Good teachers can lose their jobs too. Ask a science teacher in Kansas or another ID state. </p>

<p>--</p>

<p>["you really have absolutely no garantee your spouse would be held on without a union in place. Unless of course you're the prinicpal."</p>

<p>On this I am positive - the principle told the state that her best teachers were the newest ones; she has already made it clear that she will bend over backwards to try to keep the new ones.]</p>

<p>And when the principal transfers? will you have the same situation? ;) I've known 6 or 7 at one school. 2 were very good, 3 were Ok, and 2 were just idiots. Mind you my spouse has never had an "issue" with any about skills or ability to teach. But she has eyes and can see. While they praise her one second, they could jump her the next. </p>

<p>When it happens to good teachers you work with, at some point that could be you. It isn't always the deadwood that gets removed, some deadwood is remarkably able to kiss backside and reviewed more kindly as a result. It takes a quality prinicpal to disagree with a teacher and still recognize the teacher is an exceptional educator. That's not an easy quality to have. </p>

<p>["You might find down the road that the organization you bash now, might be your spouse's only support (besides you) in a bad situation."
I am confidant that she will never have to hide behind a seniority system to maintain employment.]</p>

<p>And if your spouse is accused of inappropriate behavor with a student? </p>

<p>As I said unless you feel everyone acused of something is guilty of it, then I guess you can garantee things. Or if a principal just doesn't like her, for any reason...reasonable or not..that's OK? Sometimes both people (prinicpal and teacher) are good people who for some cosmic reason..just don't like each other and never will. Is that the proper basis to dismiss a teacher? </p>

<p>I apologize but I am at an advantage here, I've seen what can happen. It isn't always the bad teacher who needs union help. Alot of issues have nothing really to do with education and children. They are personality clashes. </p>

<p>"But, the main point of this discussion is not fairness to the teachers but an improved education system and the role that unions/tenure play in it. The bottom line is that in my wife's district, the quality of education for the kids will go down when the teachers who are still motivated to teach are let go and their back-ups will be the dregs that the administration is currently trying to shuffle around into roles where they can do the least harm. Next year, if they have to take primary teaching roles, it will be the kids who suffer. I'm sure my wife will be fine."</p>

<p>So is it the administration or the union or a little of both? In my district a few years back alot of administrative effort was spent driving senior teachers into retirement along with all the educational awards and national recognition they had. Yes they were paid pretty well, but they produced the students we say we wanted, highly motivated, educated kids. The results didn't matter. What mattered was two SB members were behind a drive to a voucher driven system and wanted to abolish public schools. Like I said, not all motives are pure and innocent and for a child's benefit. </p>

<p>Good luck to you and your spouse, I'm sure she'll find a district where they will love to have her and have the funds to keep her.</p>

132

<p>epif,</p>

<p>Didn't we go through this a couple months ago? :) How are things going with your situation?</p>

133

<p>Opie,
LOL, we did indeed "go through this" a couple of months ago (maybe more?).</p>

<p>Don't remember timing, exactly. Maybe I hadn't switched schools yet. Am in a technology-driven school now. But the same problems resurface as in traditional site classrooms: Where the parent is involved (AND interested in integrating fully into American society -- by that I mean the economy & educational advancement; I don't mean cultural beliefs necessarily), the student is doing terrifically. There is a direct, one on one correspondence. Even better with my students with <em>two</em> parents involved: those students are hoppin'. I have two families like that. The families doing the worse are the ones where the parent(s) is/are exercising little oversight and/or in situations where little interest is shown in English fluency. In our setup the teachers have limited in-person contact with the students. I just maximize the time I do spend with mine, & I offer what no other teacher in the program does: in-person (not virtual) office hours.</p>

134

<p>I think when we were talking about this before, you were between schools as the things I remember were along the lines of several "non angelic" students and a not so great situation. Sounds like you ended up in a better place. </p>

<p>Mine has five this year that have yet to go a week without 3 in trouble. In fact for a couple the only reason they weren't in at recess, was because they caught the flu and stayed home. For the most part the problems they are having aren't really in the classroom anymore. Just everywhere else:). </p>

<p>Some are getting specialist help and others have just realized my spouse ain't gonna budge. And some just need a little more understanding because of the family situations they are in. </p>

<p>Glad to here your doing well in your new location.</p>

135

<p>Steve Jobs is right. I know. There are tons of teachers at my schools that suck and everyone complains about them, but we can't do crap about them. Bad teachers=bad students.</p>

136

<p>Steve Jobs, or anyone else who thinks the problem with education is teacher's unions, has apparently not done their homework. The average teacher remains in the classroom for 5 years, and in tough school districts it is 3. There is a national teacher shortage right now. Many school districts cannot even find enough qualified teachers to fill openings. The public is brutal. Parents are unreasonable and many have abandoned their parental responsibilities, delegating them to the public schools. What other profession requires a graduate degree, pays very little, and has the public constantly scrutinizing every move they make?? All unions have the problem of having members that don't pull their weight. That is certainly not unique to teachers.</p>

137

<p>Basically, if you don't value teachers -- and our society pays lipservice to valuing them but pays them wretchedly -- you end up with only the most committed and selfless and also some duds. And you also create a great possibility of burn-out among those who start out fresh and committed.</p>

138

<p>"The public is brutal. Parents are unreasonable and many have abandoned their parental responsibilities, delegating them to the public schools. What other profession requires a graduate degree, pays very little, and has the public constantly scrutinizing every move they make??"</p>

<p>I agree. I would like Steve Jobs to spend a day in an average public school, in the role of a teacher. That would mean arriving by contractual time to attend a "professional development" meeting - which is code for another initiative that there's no time to fully learn but it's being implemented, ready or not - then keep up with the Academic Support Intervention/Individual Education Programs for a large class of students which includes students who are way above grade level and way below, students who are learning English and students who have behavioral problems. He would have to follow district curriculum - Everyday Math, Balanced Literacy, etc. - as decided by administration, whether or not he thought it was effective with the particular group of students. He would have to worry about medical problems and allergies, be conscious of time for students pulled for many reasons and other teachers pushing in. He would need to respond to many requests for data and many other requests via email, voice mail and memo. He would be responsible for committee work and class trips and so much more. Bus duty, collaboration, etc. Throw in some wacky administrators and parents for fun.
After that, he can criticize unions all he wants.</p>

139

<p>babar your day sounds very familiar. :)</p>

140

<p>I am not a classroom teacher or I could have included even more aspects of the average day. I do work in the field of education (I say that loosely) and have worked in independent and public schools - schools where unions did not and did exist. There were excellent and terrible teachers as well as many ranking somewhere in-between in both types of schools. The fact is that the union is not the villain. I am not especially pro-union and don't think unions are all that powerful, frankly, in many districts...but I do think teachers are treated terribly by the general public.</p>