Steve Jobs Blames Education Problems on Teacher Unions

Parents Forum
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<p>Messr. Steve Jobs quote:</p>

<p>"I think we'd have far more current material available to our students and we'd be freeing up a tremendous amount of funds that we could buy delivery vehicles with - computers, faster Internet, things like that," Jobs said. "And I also think we'd get some of the best minds in the country contributing."</p>

<p>In addition, to having issues with Teacher unions, Steve also has issues with the textbook industry as well. Basically, his point is that all that money being spent on textbooks by every school in the country could be better used on access to computers and the internet for online information instead of hardcopy textbooks.</p>

162

<p>"but I think a big problem with teachers today is just that they aren't that intelligent"</p>

<p>I'll be sure to pass that on to my K's math and science teachers..:) </p>

<p>Oh pity thee who paints with a broad brush when details need to be done.</p>

163

<p>"Steve also has issues with the textbook industry as well. Basically, his point is that all that money being spent on textbooks by every school in the country could be better used on access to computers and the internet for online information instead of hardcopy textbooks"</p>

<p>Gee would he still feel this way if he produced textbooks? ;)</p>

164

<p>I didn't mean that they weren't intelligent, but they certainly aren't as smart as you would hope they'd be. Having someone who was an average student in high school teaching the same class 7 or 8 years later isn't really a good way of doing things. Its too bad that more of "best and brightest" don't become teachers, focusing on more financially rewarding degrees instead.</p>

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<p>It seems obvious that merit pay makes sense, and yet I fully understand what anxiousmom is saying. My son went down 25 percentile points in reading when he got a wonderful teacher whose class was overloaded with behavioral problems. Ironically he was reading way, way above grade level that year. I suspect testing conditions were less than ideal that year. That said, I do think test scores should be looked at closely if for no other reason than to identify teachers who are doing much better or worse than average, so that good teachers can become mentors and bad teachers can either get helped or be encouraged to find other professions. I'd like to see most kids who are in a classroom for most of the year making at least one year's worth of progress. </p>

<p>I don't know what either of my kids would have done to my teacher's in a system where merit pay existed. My older son was so precocious he rarely learned much of anything in the classroom. My younger son - who may have some sort of unidentifiable LD - is regularly at least six months behind the agenda for much of the year and then suddenly some leap occurs and he catches up with everyone. He went from struggling with Nate the Great to Harry Potter overnight. Last year he was getting low Bs in Math A (algebra 1 more or less), but then got a 98 on the final exam.</p>

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<p>"Teaching has become a profession for the B/C students in high school. Its a degree offered at most colleges, and the job security is pretty much unmatched. When you have people going into it because its a simple thing to get into and offers good benefits and security, instead of truly loving teaching then of course the education system is going to suffer."</p>

<p>This is part of the cause of the anxiety my daughter is suffering. She's an A student, with excellent internships and awards in biochemistry and has long dreamed of being a high school biology teacher. Unfortunately, she gets this attitude all the time and it really makes her feel bad. Her bachelor's will be in biology and the program is pretty rigorous, so I think she will be competent.</p>

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<p>Its too bad that more of "best and brightest" don't become teachers, focusing on more financially rewarding degrees instead.</p>

<p>IMO- this is a common fallacy- because...
One- I do think that many bright and talented people go into teaching- but they are zapped by the inane ( changing) requirements - the meetings- the lack of support by administration- the conflicting demands of the community ad nauseaum.</p>

<p>Two- I think many of them stay in it despite all the garbage, because compared to many fields, particulary fields that you can enter with a 4 year degree, they pay quite well, have good benefits and reasonable hours with guarenteed vacation time.</p>

<p>But I would also add- that the private schools in the Seattle area, don't require teachers to have a teaching degree, and still the schools are able to charge upward of $20,000 for tuition and get awards for their teaching.</p>

<p>( I wonder what university profs would look like- if we expected them to get a "teaching" degree first & if we allowed them to teach their subject or even out of their subject, with minimal coursework)</p>

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<p>Steve Jobs (and others!) should know that tenure is a myth. If administrators are strong and do their job, teachers improve their skills or they are removed. It is a sign of weak administration if teachers are not removed for being incompetent! At best, it offers some security for teachers who have been at the helm of classrooms for many years. I fully believe that there are schools and adminstrators who would cave to political pressure and remove teachers with experience (and therefore fatter paychecks) for the sole purpose of saving money. </p>

<p>Unions have helped teachers improve their standard of living so that bright young people can afford to provide for their families while choosing teaching as a career. The reality is that if you are bright, you want to have a decent standard of living and believe you deserve to earn a salary comparable to other professionals. Steve Jobs obviously knows very little about our educational system--this from a guy who is trying to get teachers to incorporate technology into the curricula and creat major changes in how they do their job! He's got big brass ones! </p>

<p>Reminds me of an old adage--something along these lines: everybody is an expert in education because everybody went to school! Hmmm... we've all been in a doctor's office, but few have the nerve to claim expertise in medicine!</p>

<p>As the daughter of a teacher who taught for mere pennies, lived in 'teacherage' and had to ask permission from her superintendent to go out on a date, this makes me want to take a hammer and smash my iBook!</p>

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<p>My sister is an elementary school teacher and the union rep at her school. She has told me stories of how the union does everything it can to protect teachers (of course, she wasn't being critical of the union as she spoke!). She seemed to be proud of the union's power. My impression was that teachers were being protected who should no longer be teaching, and of the union's concern for teachers, not students.</p>

<p>I feel like I'm on both sides of the issue, that teachers' pay should be significantly increased, but that union power should be curbed.</p>

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<p>One of the 1st tenets of any union I have ever heard about is job security and protect seniority- if that isn't true with teacher union, I don't know where it would be.</p>

<p>In our district it doesn't cost the buildings any more for a teacher with 20 years than a teacher with two years ( except in student performance), because the district handles salary- setting themselves up for the comment that schools with lower salary expenses are subsidizing schools where teachers have more experience.</p>

<p>Since the experienced teachers don't cost the schools any more- they are more likely in some cases, to go to schools where they have the perks of involved and supportive parents & high achieving kids.
So the students who most need the experienced teachers- may have teachers who are fresh out of college, some are younger than my oldest.( who after working a year where the Gates kids go to school- decided she didn't want to be a teacher after all- not until she gets more confidence to better handle a classroom any way & they were * mostly* shorter than her) ;)</p>

<p>No wonder those teachers often don't last long in the classroom, they have 30 kids, over half might be on free/reduced lunch- their school doesn't have a PTA that often handles the extra expenses of transportation for field trips, classroom supplies and financial support to run tutoring programs after school.</p>

<p>With job protection- one school may have "changed the job title" for the position that they want to bump a teacher from, since that is one of the few ways that they can do so- ( Apparently- common in unionized companies- & I am pro union- within reason)
assuming that the teachers qualifications don't match the new description, but the teacher can then go to another school & bump someone with less seniority-which is frustrating when that school community is very excited about the young teacher & they are a good match for the school.</p>

<p>The tenured teacher- may not be a good match for the school, but they have union guarenteed rights to a job</p>

171

<p>
[quote]
Principals come and go - this power would certainly make school politics rise to the level of corporate politics (as if they aren't there already). I don't think there would be any benefit to students....

[/quote]

What is any different about principals coming and going and private sector bosses coming and going? Of course there may be corporate politics ... but I know of no corporation that will tolerate the abuse of the system as much as today's schools. Tell me how it is to the kids advantage to have a teacher who sleeps during class or who is consistently missing from class because of "illness", "bereavement", or "disability". Or, how does the kid benefit if the teacher does show up but doesn't bother to teach math because she doesn't understand the teaching concepts? These are all everyday abuses of the system that I hear from my wife every night. The principal's hands are tied because of the union; her only tools are to shift the deadbeats into assignments where they have a co-teacher to do the real work. Unfortunately, when the budget requires that the co-teachers be let go, then the deadbeats will be in charge of the classroom. Not a pretty picture from an educational perspective.</p>

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<p>From <a href="http://www.aft.org/presscenter/releases/2006/121506.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.aft.org/presscenter/releases/2006/121506.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
Teacher Unions More Necessary Than Ever, Says Noted Education Historian </p>

<p>WASHINGTON, D.C. – The need for unions to protect teachers from heavy-handed administrators, arbitrary mandates, oppressive supervision and unfair compensation is as essential today as it was a century ago, according to Diane Ravitch, research professor of education at New York University, senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and the Brookings Institution, and former assistant secretary of education in President George H.W. Bush's administration. Ravitch takes on union critics in the current edition of American Educator, a publication of the American Federation of Teachers.</p>

<p>"These critics want to scrap the contract, throw away teachers'legal protections, and bring teacher unions to their collective knees," Ravitch writes in "Why Teacher Unions Are Good for Teachers—and the Public." Ravitch suggests that instead of assuming teacher contracts and tenure are to blame for low student performance, critics should be looking for a weak curriculum, mediocre leadership, inadequate resources or "a flawed, bureaucratic hiring process" that fails “to evaluate new teachers before awarding them tenure."</p>

<p>Ravitch says that today, when corporate-style reformers believe that the way to fix low-performing schools is "to install an autocratic principal who rules with an iron fist," the union is an important part of a school system's checks and balances, "necessary as a protection for teachers against the arbitrary exercise of power by heavy-handed administrators."</p>

<p>Unions will be vital as long as they speak on behalf of the rights and dignity of teachers and the essentials of good education, according to Ravitch, which are "a rigorous curriculum, effective instruction, adequate resources, willing students, and a social and cultural climate in which education is encouraged and respected."</p>

<p>Also in the winter issue of American Educator:</p>

<p>Results from a groundbreaking study debunking the myth that collective bargaining increases teacher turnover in high-poverty schools.
One teacher’s story about the union backing his efforts to stop administrators' manipulation of student grades to raise graduation rates.
How schools in the South Bronx negotiated to attract good teachers—and retain them.
How one teacher union local is ensuring teachers get the best research-based training in reading.

[/quote]
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<p>Bravo to accountability and competition? </p>

<p>
[quote]
AFT Convention Says Voucher Schemes as Bad for Higher Education as for K-12
Union Passes Resolution Opposing Privatization Efforts in Public Colleges and Universities</p>

<p>Washington, D.C. — The American Federation of Teachers, which represents more college and university faculty than any other union, approved at its biennial convention a resolution sharply criticizing the recent development of privatization schemes for public higher education.</p>

<p>The resolution, which becomes AFT policy, condemns the Colorado Legislature for voting earlier this year to defund public colleges and universities and replace transitional state funding with inadequate student vouchers that can be used at both public and private institutions. A similar measure also was passed in Washington state but was later vetoed by Gov. Gary Locke.</p>

<p>"The proponents of higher education vouchers claim they’re improving access and diversity through these schemes," said AFT vice president William Scheuerman, "but they’re actually doing the opposite. Cutting a slice out of the state higher education budget pie means less funding for financial aid and fewer dollars for operating state institutions of higher learning. Evidence suggests that private institutions receiving these vouchers raise tuition knowing the increase will be offset by state funds. This is a lose-lose proposition both for students and for public institutions of higher education."</p>

<p>The AFT is concerned that this form of privatization will become more popular as student populations continue to increase at a time when state budgets for higher education remain tight. The AFT resolution also cautions that states such as Colorado that have enacted so-called "taypayer bill of rights" view higher education vouchers as a method to skirt restrictions on tax or tuition increases.</p>

<p>The AFT is urging its local affiliates to fight these privatization efforts by forming coalitions with other education and labor organizations.</p>

<p>"Opposition to K-12 vouchers has always been a litmus test for this union in endorsing candidates. After today, we will also be holding candidates accountable for their position on vouchers for college and university students," Scheuerman said.

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<p>Statement by Edward J. McElroy
President, American Federation of Teachers
on the Introduction of School Voucher Legislation</p>

<p>BOSTON – Last week's U.S. Department of Education's own study revealing that private schools are no magic bullet for student achievement is reason enough to deep-six the latest voucher legislation. Federal education dollars should be spent helping public schools meet the No Child Left Behind mandates. </p>

<p>Public schools are making steady progress in raising academic achievement but they need real help from the federal government, not disingenuous proposals from the Republican congressional leadership intended to please political allies. A good start would be to fully fund NCLB so that all public schools have a chance to meet the law’s requirements.</p>

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<p>Statement from Sandra Feldman,
President of the American Federation of Teachers,
on Private School Voucher Proposals for the District of Columbia</p>

<p>WASHINGTON, D.C. It is disingenuous at best and duplicitous at worst to siphon money from the District’s public schools to finance vouchers for private school education when there is already a proposal to cut $100 million from the city's school budget. If voucher advocates really want to help students and strengthen D.C. schools, they should stand with the citizens and teachers of Washington, D.C., who oppose private school vouchers and support the use of effective educational programs and strategies.</p>

<p>Without exception, the "evidence" of success that voucher advocates have presented has been discredited. Yet, even as they promote an empty scheme, voucher proponents turn a deaf ear to the proven effectiveness of programs and strategies that could benefit the District’s public school students. It is frustrating that most voucher supporters have never uttered a word of support for such highly successful programs as class-size reduction, which solid research demonstrates has enormous benefits for disadvantaged students. They have been silent on the issue of the gross underfunding of poor children’s schools and the huge disparities in spending between advantaged and disadvantaged children. And voucher supporters have failed to advocate for early childhood education, which has proven to make a dramatic difference for disadvantaged students, while study after study confirms that vouchers make absolutely no difference in achievement. </p>

<p>Voucher proponents’ narrow focus on vouchers at any cost is a distraction that has deprived District schoolchildren of the educational opportunities they deserve. If the voucher proponents’ goal is to help District students and the city’s public schools, they will join the chorus of voices calling for solutions we know work--research-based curricula, early learning programs, and extra support for struggling students.</p>

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<p>This article is a few months old, but it is relevant to the discussion:</p>

<p><a href="http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/09/10/BAG0CL2UJ01.DTL%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/09/10/BAG0CL2UJ01.DTL&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>I would agree with several parents posting in this thread that there are a lot of teachers who ought to be paid more and that teaching should gain more societal respect as well as more pay than many teachers now enjoy. I think Steve Jobs is on the right track in suggesting one path for helping to make that happen.</p>

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<p><a href="http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/09/10/BAG0CL2UJ01.DTL%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/09/10/BAG0CL2UJ01.DTL&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I will cut and paste some of the article into the thread. For the remainder, go to the URL (above).</p>

<p>SACRAMENTO
Schools may get break from bad teachers
'Dance of the Lemons' from one campus to another would be curtailed under bill
Nanette Asimov, Chronicle Staff Writer
Sunday, September 10, 2006
Imagine a company president being ordered by the board of directors to hire any misfit who knocks on the door.
It's a crazy scenario -- but it's exactly the way many California school districts operate when an unsuccessful teacher is quietly edged out of a school. As long as the teacher agrees to leave voluntarily, union rules require the principal of any other school in the district with an opening to hire that teacher.
The practice, common in large and mid-size urban districts, is so reviled by principals that they've given it a derogatory name.
"It's called the Dance of the Lemons," said state Sen. Jack Scott, a Pasadena Democrat who wrote a bill to ban the practice in low-scoring schools and to limit it in others.
Scott, who chairs the Senate Education Committee, got the Democrat-controlled Legislature to pass his bill despite opposition from two traditional party allies: the California Teachers Association and the California Federation of Teachers.
The bill was approved 33-1 by the Senate in May and 59-12 by the Assembly last month. Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has until Sept. 30 to sign or veto the bill.
If the governor signs it as expected, California will become the first state in the nation to rein in the practice.
"There are a lot of states watching what's happening in California, and I think it'll have significant ramifications nationwide," said Michelle Rhee, chief executive officer of the New Teacher Project, a national nonprofit group that worked on the Scott bill.
Barbara Kerr, president of the California Teachers Association, called the bill "insulting to teachers," because it implies that every teacher who voluntarily leaves a school is a poor one. Some teachers leave a school for reasons unrelated to performance, such as a personality clash with a principal.
Disapproval from the teachers unions often can kill a bill. But their opposition was counterbalanced this time by a constituency that proved just as persuasive: advocates for poor and minority students, who most often attend the schools where the lemons land.
"Right now, poor kids and kids of color don't have their fair share of the state's experienced, credentialed teachers," said Russlynn Ali, executive director of the Oakland advocacy group Education Trust-West. "By giving a principal in a high-poverty, high-minority school some power to recruit those teachers, we can finally make headway on closing that teacher-quality gap."
Principals also love the idea.
"I believe in the teachers union, but some things protect ineffective employees. We've got to put children first," said Principal Patricia Gray of Balboa High in San Francisco.
"It's not just about good and bad teachers," Gray said. "Sometimes there's chemistry and a fit -- personalities that work better together. I've got a wonderful staff. I'd like to have some choice in who comes and who's going to be a good fit for the school."
Under the Scott bill, SB1655, existing labor contracts with teachers would be honored, but future agreements would largely disallow the forced hiring.
The new law would no longer require principals in low-scoring schools to hire unwanted teachers. Like Balboa, these schools rank 1, 2, or 3 on the state's 10-point Academic Performance Index.
Principals in higher-scoring schools would have a window of time each year to hire whom they please -- beginning on April 15 and running through the summer.
Under current law, principals don't have that window. They are forced to give unwanted teachers hiring priority throughout the summer, forcing more desirable candidates to look for jobs elsewhere, usually in suburbia.
The so-called Dance of the Lemons is not just a California problem -- it goes on across the country.
"It is the students who lose the most," according to a recent study by the New Teacher Project, which found that the forced hiring results in the placement of "hundreds, and sometimes even thousands, of teachers in urban classrooms each year with little regard for the appropriateness of the match, the quality of the teacher, or the overall impact on schools."
The New Teacher Project looked at the impact of forced hires in five urban districts across the country. It found:
-- City schools have large numbers of unwanted teachers;
-- Teachers who should be fired are instead passed from school to school;
-- Good teachers are unable to wait all summer for the chance to be considered, so they apply elsewhere, usually by June.
The practice of forced hiring has been a part of labor contracts since the early 1960s, beginning with districts on the East Coast and growing in popularity over the years, according to the New Teacher Project.
In San Francisco, Balboa High was one of those schools that could never get ahead. In 1999, Gray was hired as principal and was asked to turn the school around.
But it was slow going.
Gray wanted to transform the school's chaotic atmosphere by setting clear expectations for students and teachers and aligning the curriculum with the state's expectations for high school students.
Though it sounded simple, Gray said it took the cooperation and enthusiasm of every staff member.
Under Gray's new system, all Balboa students could look at the blackboard and know immediately what they were expected to do because every teacher wrote a "Do Now" list for every class.
Teachers also wrote the "Aim for the Day," the "Lesson Steps" and the homework assignment on the board for all to see.
"You find that in every room," Gray said.
The idea was to lessen confusion and help students improve.
One day, a new teacher started at Balboa who had been "consolidated" -- teacher talk for squeezed out -- from another high school. Gray had no choice but to hire her.
"I was forced to take a consolidated teacher on more than one occasion," Gray recalled.
When this particular teacher arrived at Balboa, Gray said, she refused to follow the school-improvement plan that every other teacher had agreed to do and that students had come to rely on.
"She felt it stifled her creativity," Gray said.
Since then, Gray and a few other San Francisco principals trying to turn around low-scoring schools have received a district waiver from forced hiring.
"It did make a difference," Gray said. "If you've got a teacher who has had problems in another school because she was ineffective, then of course the children are not getting the instruction they need. So the children absolutely benefited."</p>

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<p>Next question for the experts.. why did the Bears lose the superbowl and should we end the players union as they reduce the value of football.</p>

<p>??</p>

<p>I wonder how many days this post will go on? Even I am getting tired of it.</p>

180

<p>Was John Stossel's "attack" on the teacher's unions in New York breaking new grounds?</p>

<p>
[quote]

Why it's too hard to fire bad teachers</p>

<p>At one Chicago school, a teacher locked a special education kindergartner in a closet for hours for defecating in his pants. Another teacher repeatedly used emergencies as excuses for being late, arriving minutes before 10 a.m.--the magic hour before which, under union contract, she could not be marked absent and be docked pay. The principal of these teachers' school got rid of them the best way he knew how: He transferred them to other schools.</p>

<p>Public school officials throughout the nation complain about a shared problem: the Byzantine process required to fire inadequate teachers. Although good teachers are the single most essential ingredient in improving education, union power and legislatures have all but completely protected the tenures of the teachers who fail at their jobs.</p>

<p>The catch is that even small numbers of ineffective--and downright dangerous--teachers harm thousands of children for life. "Even if only five percent of the teachers in public elementary and secondary schools are incompetent, the number of students being taught by these teachers exceeds the combined public school enrollments of the five smallest states," Stanford Professor Edwin M. Bridges wrote in Education Week.</p>

<p>In one New York City case, the issue went beyond competence and into criminality. In 1990, Jay Dubner, a special education teacher, was convicted of selling $7,000 worth of cocaine and was sent to prison. But it was another two years before the New York City Board of Education finally fired the teacher after a year-long hearing that cost $185,000. The teacher argued that he should retain his job because he was rehabilitated, and a civil court decision overturned his dismissal. Even after years in jail, Dubner continued to collect pay checks. At one point, he worked a school job during the day while spending weekend nights in jail on a work-release program.</p>

<p>School districts across New York State spend on average nearly $200,000 and 476 days on each teacher dismissal hearing--more, in some cases, than it takes to convict someone of a crime in the courts, according to a 1994 survey by the New York State School Board Association. "You have to provide documentation on top of documentation on top of documentation," said Erica Zurer, vice president of New York City's Community School Board 13, which oversees one of 32 subdistricts in the nation's largest school system. As a result of publicity and a few flagrant cases involving drug and sex crimes, the New York State Legislature streamlined the process this year. As of September 1, school districts are permitted to suspend without pay any employee convicted of drug crimes or of abusing a minor, either physically or sexually.</p>

<p>In Illinois, the legislature set up an unwieldy process that in 1992 resulted in dismissals of seven (out of 26,000) tenured Chicago public school teachers. Far more should have been fired. According to a study by the Consortium on Chicago School Research, an astounding number of principals--more than two-thirds--said they would fire six to 20 percent of their teachers if they could bypass the hearings.</p>

<p>A 1993 survey of Chicago Teachers Union delegates shows that teachers understand the injury caused by incompetent colleagues as well as anyone. Seventy-nine percent of the union's own delegates consider the obstacles to removing poor teachers a problem, according to the Chicago magazine Catalyst. The only problem teachers consider more serious than dismissing poorly performing teachers was insufficient teaching materials.

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<p>The rest of the article is at <a href="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1316/is_n11_v26/ai_15875508/print/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1316/is_n11_v26/ai_15875508/print/&lt;/a> </p>

<p>The date is ... November 1994. Progress is on its way!</p>