<p>Why do schools ask students who are auditioning what other schools they are auditioning for? Some even ask students to rank the schools in order of preference. Personally, I don't think this is a fair question.</p>
<p>It is not a fair question.</p>
<p>Wow - that must have been awkward. I’m curious as to how you answered that. I just told my daughter about your post and told her she better figure out at “Miss America” answer . . . one that won’t alienate them and yet will make them smile and affirm that she’s smart and witty. Holy moly. That’s dirty pool - especially with them all knowing that kids have got to audition for a billion schools and are (usually) LUCKY to have 2 or 3 schools to offer them a spot.</p>
<p>Exactly - it is not a fair question. Especially since we coached our daughter to think about the positives of each school and not to worry about ranking until she knew what her options actually were. One school had asked the question on the sign in sheet on day of audition - she just tossed some names of schools down. After her audition, the auditor complemented her work and then asked her to defend why she had put down one of the schools on her list. She honestly listed the other schools positives. I agree, you should think of answers to possible questions ahead of time. Though some questions seemed to be unpredictable.</p>
<p>How about the art of deflection - " Because audition based programs are so highly competitive with such small numbers accepted at each program, I have applied to several schools. I am particularly interested in (insert school name) because (insert reasons that show you have really dug into the attributes of the school).</p>
<p>Some programs actually ask you to list them on the app. Ithaca, at Unifieds, does this. It may not be fair, but it isn’t limited to a MT pursuit. Real life hiring practices often attempt to get a feel for the competition if a candidate is good. Tough for an 18-19 year old to be put on the spot verbally, though. I would gracefully move the conversation away, if possible. But that’s easier said than done.</p>
<p>My D experienced this in MT admissions too. My other D who applied to very selective colleges, and later to very selective grad schools, was NEVER asked this question.</p>
<p>I like that MichaelNKat.</p>
<p>We all ask it for a variety of reasons. The simplest isn’t at all devious. We want to know who the students who audition for us are also auditioning for. Think oft it as a way to determine your peer and aspirant programs through the eyes of the auditioning students. </p>
<p>The second part of the question is also simple. Most students get multiple offers, and many students are talented. While I don’t understand why a school would expect an answer to such a question the simple fact remains that the school is more likely to make offers to students they expect to accept the invitation. I don’t really agree with asking a student to rank a school in a list. But I do understand asking - and having the student answer - “where else are you looking?”</p>
<p>I think it should be optional and explicitly stated why the question is being asked. It would probably make everyone a lot more comfortable.</p>
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<p>I understand your desire to know which peer institutions are attracting the same applicants. However, most colleges do not ask this at the point of applications. I have a kid who applied to top regular colleges (not MT programs) and NONE asked this when she applied or interviewed and I am sure these schools are interested in this information, just as your school is. HOWEVER, what some of them did (not all) was on the form where she had to give them her final decision (turning down the school), it asks where else she applied and/or where she is going and that is a way to gather such information that may be useful for a college to know. It is not their business to know before the admissions process plays out. Asking after April 1 is a fair question and gathers information for the institution.</p>
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<p>In due respect, I am also against this. Applicants indeed apply to many schools and have a right to have reaches, matches, and safeties on their list, and in fact, SHOULD have safeties. If a school perceives they are a safety or that the student may not attend, they would be less apt to accept them. They should accept who they feel is worthy of attending. In fact, a few minutes ago, one of my students who got into MULTIPLE BFA programs, including some that some consider top ones, as well as one of the top BA theater/MT programs, told me of his decision where to attend and while it is a fantastic program, it isn’t one that is well established and many would be inclined to pick some of his other options over it (not because they are better but they are surely better known and more competitive). Imagine if this other program hadn’t accepted him thinking he would not come. </p>
<p>The question a college or program SHOULD ask a student is “why do you want to attend OUR program,” and gauge how well the student knows the program and can articulate how they fit the program and how the program fits them. It is about fit. A college really doesn’t know which program the student might pick and shouldn’t predict it. It only matters that the student expresses true and very specific interest in THEIR program. A college or program certainly should gauge the interest of the student in attending their program.This is my opinion, of course. </p>
<p>Many many many colleges manage to get the students they want and have HIGH yield rates, without ever knowing where else a student applied. I work with many students applying to all sorts of colleges and it is rare that this is asked, EXCEPT some BFA programs seem to ask this question at the audition or on an application. As I wrote, my older daughter applied to highly selective colleges, including Ivies, as well as the top graduate programs in her field, and never was asked this question. She deserved to have safety schools and not have a school not accept her thinking she would not come. In fact, her safeties tried to lure her with big scholarships. </p>
<p>When D2 applied to BFA in MT programs, at one well known program, on the audition sheet on audition day, they asked her to fill in where else she applied. She applied to a total of 8 colleges but just listed five on the form, choosing schools on par with the school she was auditioning at that day. In the interview portion of the audition, the panel asked her why she wasn’t applying to NYU/Tisch…the way they phrased it was, “why isn’t someone like YOU applying to NYU??” and she had not put NYU down on the form. So, she knew her schools very well and articulated why their school was preferable over NYU and how it compared and contrasted in various ways. She was admitted to that program. However, she chose NYU. :D</p>
<p>PS, colleges may think they can predict which school a student might pick based on their college list…but I don’t think it is that predictable…when my older D got into undergrad school, and she narrowed her accepted schools down to a final group of three to consider, she threw out one of her Ivy League school acceptances and preferred two non-Ivy colleges more than that Ivy. Very recently, my D turned down Stanford for grad school with a huge scholarship worth four times more than the nice scholarship she got at another well known program she has decided to attend. I’d hate to think that a college or grad school would assume what she would do if accepted!</p>
<p>At the majority of my daughter’s auditions at Chicago Unifieds, my daughter filled out a preaudition sheet asking why she wanted to attend that school AND what other schools she was applying for. She usually put about 6 of the 16 schools she was submitting applications to. These were all schools she had already filled out extensive questions for on her university application. I would HATE to think that the reason she didn’t receive acceptances to some of these schools was due to her honesty in answering the question. All schools she applied to she was considering equally, and so it would be very silly for a school to rule her out because they thought they couldn’t compete with another.</p>
<p>One of the schools told us that the reason they asked was to try and figure out how many students to actually admit due to the number of schools students are applying for.</p>
<p>At this point, this process is so very competitive that all students are applying for numerous schools , and I think universities just need to remove this question from any screening process or else come clean about why they are asking. it.</p>
<p>Christie, your D did what my D did (and I have recommended to others in such a case to do), which was to write down some of her schools, but not all. </p>
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<p>I don’t believe that myself. The way a college determines predicted yield is based a lot on previous year’s yield and they gauge their acceptance numbers accordingly. </p>
<p>The line you were given truly makes no sense anyway, because how many schools a kid applied to is not always an indication of how many they will get in. I have had some students apply to 14 schools and get into four, or of their BFA programs, only get into one of them, even if they applied to 9 BFAs. Some other kid applied to six BFAs and can get into five of them. My own daughters had shorter lists than it seems a lot of other people have and they got into the majority of their schools. Anyway, look at how many are applying…are they going to examine how many each applicant applied to and figure out some formula from that? I don’t think so. And if their line to you was true, that is even more reason to write down fewer schools than you really applied to!</p>
<p>How many schools a kid applies to is not a good indicator of how many they will be admitted to. For one thing, in situations where the schools on the list have single digit acceptance rates, the predicability is very chancy. Secondly, I have run into many people who have unrealistic college lists in relation to themselves. They may have 15 schools on the list but many are not in their ballpark before they even apply/audition and/or their list is not well balanced. I know kids with shorter lists but where their list is very balanced and appropriate and commensurate with their qualifications and they don’t need 15 schools to yield results.</p>
<p>I agree with soozie’s comment that schools will consider the other schools a student has applied to as a factor in determining whether to offer an acceptance. Like it or not, all colleges, not just MT programs, are a business. Part of the business involves numbers games based on the number of applications, the number of acceptances offered and the yield. The way these numbers are used often influences the perception or ranking of a school’s selectivity. Some of them impact on a school’s perceived rating. If a school offers fewer positions and achieves a higher yield, that impacts on how a school is perceived. Also, keep in mind that with in a school there is a constant process of budget allocations and the politics of interdepartmental budget competition. A department that can better predict its yield can better compete for the dollars. I don’t think it is far fetched at all that a school would want to offer a spot to a student that is less talented than another where it was concluded that the former had a serious interest in the school and the latter, based on other schools to which applications had been made, was viewing the latter as a last resort fall back. Schools want to offer positions to students they believe will attend. In my opinion, that’s why the question is asked, otherwise there would be no need to go beyond the audition, artistic recommendations and resume.</p>
<p>Agreed that that is why it is asked and I surely understand a school’s desire to know. However, the majority of colleges don’t ask this question and they manage. I think the question is not appropriate to ask. There are ways to gauge an applicants’ interest. As I wrote, none of my other child’s schools asked, nor have so many other colleges that I know kids who have applied to, and some of these schools still have high yields. I am an alumni interviewer for a very selective college and we are not supposed to ask that question in an interview, but we surely try to find out the degree to which a student has explored this college and their specific level of interest in why they wish to attend. Every student, in my opinion, and my own kids did this, should express on an application (and in interviews if they have any) why they want to go to that college very specifically. Some colleges have an essay addressing this but I encourage applicants to include such a statement for schools whose apps don’t have such a prompt,and to address it in an interview. I have seen many kids’ attempts at such essays and many are very poor and way way too generic. If they can sub another college’s name into the response, it is not effective. These are the kinds of things that most colleges go by to ascertain an applicant’s interest in attending. They don’t have to ask where else they are applying. Expressing interest in a school is VERY important. And schools should ask. A student should be able to articulate why that college fits them and why they fit that college and that response should differ greatly from college to college on the list. To me, this is where it is at. Colleges can assess the level of interest an applicant demonstrates. Most colleges do this without asking where else you have applied. They also adjust their predictions of yield based on yield rates in prior years. And yes, obtaining a high yield is what they strive for! I totally get why colleges are interested in yield. But I still think it is wrong to ask an applicant where else they applied. Many top colleges I know have some of the highest yield rates in the country and they don’t ask this question.</p>
<p>I’m just going to add a piece of advice here to prospective students…</p>
<p>I see some people tack on safety schools on their college list that they don’t really care much about or didn’t put a lot of energy into selecting and they apply just in case and really don’t want to go to that school, etc. When my D applied to safety schools, she put a lot of energy into finding ones she would be happy to attend and then she visited and put a lot of energy into meeting dept. heads, current students and many others and wrote very specific letters of interest to these schools EXACTLY the same amount of attention she gave reachy Ivy League schools. The safeties took her. They offered money. They must realize she was at the top of their applicant pools generally speaking, but by the same token, they want to attract very strong students too and they could see she expressed genuine interest in attending whereas some safety schools may think a kid just threw in a common application and hit another button. Not so whatsever in my kid’s case in how she approached applying to safety schools, which didn’t differ one bit to how she approached applying to reach schools. Just a suggestion for others.</p>
<p>Short version of the above is:</p>
<p>Show the love to EVERY SCHOOL on your list. :D</p>
<p>My goodness. This is way too serious. It is a conversational question meant to get at something very simple. If I wanted the information, I could simple go out and get the information via the testing services. I don’t really care that much, nor do most of the schools out there. It is a completely reasonable question to ask during an interview. I can’t begin to imagine why anyone would take offense at this. Several students told us “I’m looking at a variety of schools” and that was a perfectly reasonable answer. Let’s not make this out to be the inquisition. We don’t write it down, and we don’t use the information to determine who we do an do not offer invitations to. And to be perfectly frank I seriously doubt anyone does. Then again, I don’t know every program all that intimately. </p>
<p>My best advice to every student. Don’t treat this as some sort of deceptive game. Be honest. In the best world the schools will be the same. I hope they all are. If someone asks - “are you serious about us” or “rank us” simply say that the question is too difficult without all the information. You’d likely be telling the truth. If someone asks “where else are you looking” give a few schools, or your whole list if you want. It really won’t matter… if the school wants you they will send an invitation.</p>
<p>The comments are not directed at any particular program. Ken, I realize you do not ask your applicants to “write it down,” but some of our kids have been to auditions where indeed, there was a form where the applicant was asked to write it down at the audition, and I have had some students who have been asked this on the application too. </p>
<p>You say you can’t imagine anyone “taking offense,” and I can’t begin to tell you that over the years in my advising students, how many students and parents DID mind this and also in my nine years on this forum, this topic has come up and many have remarked about feeling this is an inappropriate question as well.</p>
<p>Perhaps this feedback will be beneficial to know.</p>
<p>I will admit that I have learned from such feedback on CC. About 12 years ago when I interviewed applicants for my alma mater, I did ask this question. I later learned why this was not a fair question, and have subsequently in all the years I have been doing interviews since then asked questions as to why the student wants to attend this college and what they have done to learn about it, if they visited, and also I ask them about their college selection criteria (this gives an idea of what they want in a college and if it matches up with this college). I have read up on directions given to those who interview for my college and it is advised not to ask where else the student applied. </p>
<p>The bottom line is to ascertain the student’s interest in your college, why they fit it, why the college fits them, how deeply they have explored it, and what criteria they are using in selecting a college or program. All that that can be gained without finding out where else the student applied. </p>
<p>In any case, people are sharing their opinions of this as students and parents (and interviewers) and so here are various perspectives to weigh.</p>
<p>The bottom line is true. But the question is benign and has little to do with the bottom line. After 15 years of asking the question the only things we’ve come away with are who we are competing with in the meta-sense. In other words, this year more students said “I’m also looking at school x” than “school y.” Nothing more, nothing less. Peer and aspirant programs. I suppose if there are schools who use the information to make decisions regarding who to offer invitations - you are correct - it isn’t a fair question. But I suspect that these are the exceptions, not the rules. Then again, we are just one program, and although I spend far too much time talking about this process with others who run these programs, I can’t say we’ve talked much about this.</p>
<p>kjgc, have you heard of so-called “Tufts Syndrome?” I realize you are in theater and not a regular college admissions officer, but this is a widely used term and unfortunately (I say this as unfortunate as I am a Tufts alum actually) it got associated with Tufts University. If you are unfamiliar with this term, it can be found on any internet search but also on any search of College Confidential’s forums. The term refers to an assumption that colleges like Tufts, reject highly qualified applicants who they think are using them as a back up to the Ivies. This is a false myth regarding Tufts and it is a pervasive belief by many about other schools, not just Tufts. (as an aside, Tufts is hardly a safety school with a 22% admit rate!) </p>
<p>But the concept behind Tufts Syndrome (and it kills me to use this term with Tufts’ name in it!), is a college assuming that someone who is overly strong and who likely applied to schools “above” it will reject them, is bothersome in my view for two reasons. The main reason it is irksome is that ALL students need and should have safety schools (though ironcially Tufts itself is not a safety!) and if schools reject an applicant because the applicant is super qualified, that seems unfair as the student needs safeties and may not get into their reach or match school. If your safeties are gonna reject you, you could be out of luck! My second reason is the assumption that people pick schools by “rankings.” When my kid was narrowing down all her acceptances, she much preferred Tufts over her acceptance to Penn (which is an Ivy) and so turned down Penn and was considering going to Tufts as it was one of her favorite schools. While she ultimately didn’t go to Tufts, she was very willing to go there OVER a “Higher ranked” school with lower acceptance rate. I had a student today turn down what many would consider top theater/MT programs for an excellent program that is not nearly as widely known. So, colleges should not assume a student wouldn’t attend who is super qualified for their school.</p>
<p>Edit note…I wrote this post without seeing your latest post, Ken, and so this post is not a response to yours, sorry. It was just another thought. But in reply to your newer post, I will reiterate that some colleges that my non-MT D applied to, asked where else she applied on a form used to send in her reply if she was going to attend or not. So, the institutions can gather this information, which I do understand to be useful. in planning for future years (but should not determine who to accept!)</p>