Story of my 3 Asian classmates and 1 friend from my area (including myself)

<p>“Sure. But it sends a very clear signal about the kind of kid who does this. It sends a signal that this kind of kid is so incredibly naive that he actually only believes that the top 20 (or whatever) number of schools are worth getting into”</p>

<p>Not necessarily. </p>

<p>We know kids at DD’s HS who basically applied to UVa, our state flagship, plus all eight ivies (these are kids with numbers so high that they really could take admission to UVA for granted. with not too much risk). Their attitude was “UVA is just fine, since its a sure thing, there’s nothing to lose in applying to all 8 ivies, and neglecting all other private schools” </p>

<p>For a kid with an acceptable state flagship option (and lots of very good state flagships are safer for a kid with numbers like that than UVA is), and a virtual certainty of getting into that state flagship, applying to 8 ivies is hardly a statement that only ivies are worthwhile </p>

<p>I would agree though that as you go from 8 ivies, or 8 plus Stanford and MIT, to 20 or more, its hard to see why someone with an acceptable safety would do that.</p>

<p>Also, if it were me, I would want at least one school much safer than a UVA. Im kind of the nervous type that way.</p>

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<p>Oh, puh-lease. People who graduate from HYP put their pants legs on one at a time just like the rest of us. The vast majority of them aren’t discovering cures for cancer; they’re just living nice, quiet, mostly upper-middle class lives working hard at their jobs, mowing the lawn and paying the bills just like everyone else. These places aren’t “golden tickets” to anything. Anything.</p>

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<p>Well, sure it is. Else they would have said: “I’m after a fine education, let me go find the 8 or so schools in the top 20 or 30 or so that interest me.” But instead, they said, “I’m after an Ivy League education specifically, hence I’ll apply just to those 8 schools.” Because they valued the words Ivy League more than they valued thinking about what kind of school they liked. </p>

<p>YK, if you really like Penn and Cornell, then it would make more sense to apply to NU and WUSTL than Dartmouth. If you really liked Columbia, then it would make more sense to apply to Chicago and Swarthmore than Brown. </p>

<p>It’s trophy-grabbing by a class of people who are desperate for the Ivy League name. How is that NOT ill-thought out and nothing to brag about? </p>

<p>I would have a lot more respect for the kid at that level who says “I value this type of atmosphere, therefore I’m applying to Columbia, Chicago and Swarthmore” than the kid who says “I applied to all 8 Ivies because they are Ivies.”</p>

<p>OP, how about giving us the full results of the kids you’re talking about–where did each apply, and where were they accepted? It sounds like you’re saying that four students applied to 20 Ivies (plus Stanford and MIT). Does the 20 include Stanford and MIT? Was that 5 each or what?</p>

<p>given that there is arbitrariness, if not unfairness, in admissions to certain U’s, IF it were to be shown that admission to those U’s affected life outcomes, it would follow that the social structure of the USA is unfair. I am not sure we can address the (incomplete IMO) evidence on the the impact of admissions to those U’s on life outcomes seperate from our views on the justice of the social structure.</p>

<p>I will note, that back in the 1940’s, when there still were quotas on Jewish admissions to the Ivies, the Jewish community did not simply accept that public U’s (even City College, the “Harvard of the proletariat”) were equivalents to the Ivies, but they founded their own college as an alternative, designed to have equivalent academic standards - Brandeis (a school that never achieved what it was intended to, mainly cause the Ivies all dropped their Jewish quotas). </p>

<p>Now we live in a different age, with many more top applicants, with 20 or 30 or more entrepreneurial new ivies trying to offer equivalent educations, with the ivies transformed in many ways, with many states seeing the state flagships as engines for economic growth and with competitiveness among honors colleges within them (though also with budget pressure on many state flagships) with shifts among the economic sectors, etc. </p>

<p>It will be interesting to see what the response of the “asian” community is to perceived barriers at the elite schools. Do they accept the “it doesnt really matter” line? Do they adopt the new ivies as their own? Is there an organized “asian” community like their was an organized Jewish community (and Brandeis, IIUC, was formed very heavily due to leadership from the Boston Jewish community, so even the national Jewish community was not really as organized as one might have thought)? Is the softer, vaguer, less provable nature of (alleged) current discrimination a barrier to outrage? I dont know.</p>

<p>As an observer of society, I find it interesting.</p>

<p>20more-one thing I have found to be interesting in the elite school game is that you would actually be surprised how many students are admitted to these schools who are not in the top 10% of their class. The majority of admissions still come from private schools and very few private schools and magnet schools rank their students. Why don’t they rank - mainly because the top colleges don’t want them to because then they would have to admit to admitting a bunch of lower ranked kids.
My experience with a top rated local pivate school is that while most of the kids are bright and with effort and coaching(which the private school provides plenty of) can get a 650+ on their SAT’s. But the real academic heavyweights are still in the top 10-15%. My anecdotal experience was that of the 8-12 heavyweights about 2 got into the HYPS of the world. Below the top 12, 4 or 5 got in.</p>

<p>My son has perfect stats, letters of recommendations of the “best student in my career” variety, and leadership roles in several ECs. He was recently rejected by MIT, Yale, and Princeton and waitlisted by Rice. I doubt very much, however, that the adcoms just tossed his application in the “reject” pile with a sneer – I’m more inclined to think that when it came down to splitting hairs, he ended up in the wrong pile.</p>

<p>Now the shoe is on the other foot. He did get accepted to Williams, Amherst, Northwestern and Brown, as well as his state flagship. These are very different top-ranked schools, and each school is a “perfect fit” for some aspect of his personality. He’s going to have a tough time making that final decision, and I’m sure there will be some degree of regret each time he has to say no to one of these great schools.</p>

<p><<<it hurts=“” because=“” i=“” worked=“” really=“” hard.=“”>>></it></p>

<p>^^^and, thus, you were accepted (!) to some wonderful places. I just don’t get the ongoing pity party and despair whereby applicants get rejected from Stanford, MIT, and the Ivy League, and thus “all that hard work was for nought.” </p>

<p>If one gets the luxury of getting into a wonderful school–e.g. U of Chicago, Middlebury, etc…–why the tears? </p>

<p>My personal take on this is that too many parents and kids have been weaned on the idea that the only worthwhile schools are the Ivies + Stanford + Ivy League, which is such a crock<—ooh, never typed that word before. </p>

<p>And, maybe, kids with perfect stats and ministering to the wounded on the front-line of the Congo or Rwanda get the oracle/lesson of being denied admission to the Ivies because the schools are not “all that”, or, more accurately, there are other very fine places, some of which are more undergraduate-hospitable. Maybe, the lesson, here, in part is that college happiness can exist elsewhere.</p>

<p>I am not without sympathy; I merely think that there is such a distorted (and, sometimes, snobbish/elitist) view about which acceptances merit celebration and appreciation. I have a very close friend (Stanford everything–undergrad and grad) whom I needed to talk off the ledge because her child didn’t get into Penn or Stanford or Pomona or Tufts or Cal, and, yet, he is “stuck” with having to decide among Vanderbilt or Tulane or Emory (really fine schools with a very HIGH quality of life, which, MIT, in my opinion, cannot boast (re: the psycho-social aspect).</p>

<p>My own kid had a Stanford, Michigan, and Tufts acceptance under her belt and would have written a despairing posting had she not gotten into Tufts. Entertain that a great acceptance might not only include the Ivy Leagues. Again, a great acceptance is about nuanced qualities of a school not the USNWR rankings, which are, really, informed by some superficial things.</p>

<p>End of sermon.</p>

<p>20more - I sympathize with your friends and you about the rejections. Having said that, let me ask the following:

  1. How many other Asians from your school applied with similar profiles?<br>
  2. Is anyone from your school get into these ivies that did nt pick you regular or URM, sports, first gen etc?
  3. What is your State?
  4. Does your school normally send a quota of people to the ivies you applied to and if so did those quotas get filled?
    I think rather than worry about what happened to you and your friends, you need to look at how these schools go through the selection process. 2014 class for Yale shows they admitted 17% Asians but the overall population in this country is less than 5%? I also see that 12% are first gens and 13% legacy which means open is left with only 75% of the seats. Then they also have tendencies and restrictions such as they usually admit 3-6 kids each year from specific schools based on past history and once that quota is filled, it is sayonara. If you live in Idaho or Hawaii with those numbers, being Asian would nt matter because they want geographic representation.</p>

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<p>I had to laugh at this. When my son and I took a campus tour of Columbia this past Monday, our tour guide told the group, “A diploma from Columbia is like a secret handshake - it opens up doors everywhere.” He actually said that. I couldn’t believe that he was so crass and clueless, but that’s what many kids think. The student was a junior and fairly articulate, and I was shocked that he didn’t know better. </p>

<p>It’s very sad that these impressions are so pervasive. I’m sure that many do indeed find out after graduation that the college name on the diploma makes very little difference, other than perhaps an interview here and there, or a second look. In the end, success is determined by the student’s qualifications and job performance.</p>

<p>"Well, sure it is. Else they would have said: “I’m after a fine education, let me go find the 8 or so schools in the top 20 or 30 or so that interest me.” But instead, they said, “I’m after an Ivy League education specifically, hence I’ll apply just to those 8 schools.” Because they valued the words Ivy League more than they valued thinking about what kind of school they liked. "</p>

<p>Obviously its about the one thing that both Cornell AND Dartmouth have in common, which is selectivity and prestige. But its NOT saying that only an education WITH such prestige is acceptable - the use of a state flagship as safety contradicts that (though perhaps less so here in Virginia). </p>

<p>Its saying that the public flagship is a good choice, a good value proposition, whatever - BUT its only worth foregoing that public flagship for the prestive of an Ivy. Now that may not be the position you would take - and its not one I take. But the importance of prestige to the human psyche, in social life is so complex - and the role of the college attended in determining social prestige is so debatable, and may vary so much in different communities - I dont feel comfortable dissing someone for making that choice. </p>

<p>I mean there are folks who say “I will go to my state flagship, unless I get merit aid at a school with a beach” or whatever. As long as they have made a serious choice in terms of a “safety” (and afaict all those TJ kids who did UVA plus some prestigy list did so) its THEIR choice what minor factor to use in determining those 8 extra apps. Its not my $600 in app fees, and its not my time writing the essays, and I dont have enough of a chip on my shoulder to be bothered that they care about things that are less imporant to me.</p>

<p><<<oh, puh-lease.=“” people=“” who=“” graduate=“” from=“” hyp=“” put=“” their=“” pants=“” legs=“” on=“” one=“” at=“” a=“” time=“” just=“” like=“” the=“” rest=“” of=“” us.=“” vast=“” majority=“” them=“” aren’t=“” discovering=“” cures=“” for=“” cancer;=“” they’re=“” living=“” nice,=“” quiet,=“” mostly=“” upper-middle=“” class=“” lives=“” working=“” hard=“” jobs,=“” mowing=“” lawn=“” and=“” paying=“” bills=“” everyone=“” else.=“” these=“” places=“” “golden=”" tickets"=“” to=“” anything.=“”>>></oh,></p>

<p>True 'dat–Ivy league grads, like any other grads, are everything from pedophiles to arsonists to CEOs to doctors to teachers to accountants to farmers and the list goes on and on. They aren’t magical or special or moral, even, merely because they went to the Ivy League.</p>

<p>And, ironically, I know a few MBAs from very “elite” programs (Tuck and Wharton) who are either not finding employment, now, or, certainly, doing nothing close to what they imagined their MBAs would provide for them–one is biding his time running my son’s sailing center, and the other is doing accounting work, as a consultant (nothing guaranteed or long-term).</p>

<p>" When my son and I took a campus tour of Columbia this past Monday, our tour guide told the group, “A diploma from Columbia is like a secret handshake - it opens up doors everywhere.” He actually said that. I couldn’t believe that he was so crass and clueless, but that’s what many kids think. The student was a junior and fairly articulate, and I was shocked that he didn’t know better. "</p>

<p>the networking contacts that a networking savvy kid can make at an Ivy (or some other elite private schools) are quite impressive. That they dont materially impact the life outcomes relative to state flagships is, IMO, cause A. Lots of kids are not particularly networking savvy at that age B. Many state flagships also present terrific networking opportunities, esp to kids determined to pursue careers instate (though not only instate for the tippy top state flagships) To the extent that the folks who choose the state flagships know their career goals and have chosen accordingly, I would expect them to have good outcomes.</p>

<p>There a lot of kids who want to go to schools with the most qualified peers. It’s not surprising that those kids tend to focus on the Ivies, the top LACs, and a few other schools. This isn’t just prestige-chasing. So I think it’s quite reasonable to ask questions if a group (like Asians, or women) seems to be systematically disadvantaged at some of these schools. But some people think asking the question means that they know the answers already. And really, somebody who gets into Middlebury doesn’t appear, at first glance, to be a victim of the great conspiracy.</p>

<p>sm74 said: “Kei-again I think that supports just how far some schools have strayed from admission based on merit and academic achievement.”</p>

<p>No, you are under the mistaken impression that tiny differences in GPAs from different schools or in standardized tests like the SAT that are accurate w/in +/- 32 points are in fact signficiant differences in “merit and academic achievement.” </p>

<p>The difference between a Val with a 4.32 and someone else with “only” a 4.16 is not significant. In other words, you are imputing a precision in those data that simply does not exist.</p>

<p>Besides, if these schools can fill their classes many times over with only Vals and Sals many of them would HAVE to be rejected :-)</p>

<p>Wow. I don’t spend much time in the parents forum (I had to quit cold turkey and attend CCA meetings). But this thread reminds me of all the threads I don’t miss. I’ve been lurking in the Harvard thread this year, and was floored by the number of kids #1 in their class with perfect GPA’s, 2400 SATs, massive awards, etc., and some really cool ECs who were rejected. </p>

<p>To the OP, you do have some great choices, and I wish you well. I know it’s been only 2 days since you got all those rejects, it has to have been a painful process, and that would be hard for anyone to take. You just will have to shrug it off…it’s “their loss”. Shrug, listen to some Cee Lo and move on.</p>

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<p>But again - when you say “new Ivies,” it sounds as though you think the power structure of the last umpteen years really revolved around these 8 schools, and lo and behold, whaddya know, here are some new good schools. That’s just completely at odds with how I see the world. For the last 20, 30, 40 years, there have been all of these excellent schools, providing excellent educations – just because some people are newer to the party and have just “discovered” them, doesn’t mean that they haven’t been offering excellent educations and opportunities.</p>

<p>I’ve been reading the Yale results thread, and I’ve gotta say, it sure appears that Asian males, in particular, are getting zapped. It’s harder to say, why, exactly, though. An awful lot of them are math-science types. It’s possible, I suppose, that they are the victims of a triple whammy–they are competing for a smaller piece of the whole pie (i.e., math-science kids), that area also attracts particularly high-stats white kids, and (possibly) the college doesn’t want all of its math-science kids to be Asians. But to tease all of this out would be very difficult–and some of it may not even be deliberate on the part of the admissions people.</p>

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<p>It’s just amusing to me, because being the kind of person who craves and chases prestige that way – i.e., I’d only forego my excellent state flagship for an Ivy, not any other comparably good school – is just the antithesis of how people I perceive as “elite” really carry themselves in this world. Elite people don’t spend a lot of time worrying about impressing others.</p>

<p>What were your ECs? (Please don’t say “played piano/violin”…)</p>

<p>ucbalumnus
There is absolutely nothing wrong with studying music!!! I don’t why you’re looking down on it?</p>