My son is a serious jazz saxophone player who spent the summer at Berklee on a scholarship, but is now thinking he’d like a liberal arts school with a music major rather than a conservatory setting. His current gpa is 3.5, heading upwards but not that far. Question: will his strength as a musician help him over the hump for admission for schools that might be above his reach otherwise? Should he bother with places like Northwestern, Oberlin, Michigan etc? Where else could/should he apply? He wants a BA or BM – probably BM.
I can’t speak to the specifics, but with music majors where kids are applying to music schools in a university, the answer is that if a kid is a strong player and has the chops to pass the audition, the GPA will matter a lot less compared to if he applied to the school academically. From what I have seen in the past, the kind of GPA you are talking about with decent SAT/ACT scores will likely not exclude him from being admitted. Note it could be different if he wanted to do a double degree (ie a BM in music and a bachelors in something else), but if he is looking at a BM degree in the school of music the stats you mention likely will work from what I know. One thing I highly recommend, contact the admissions department and ask if his stats would put him in the running for admission, assuming he can pass the audition, it is what they are there for:). I have heard that the better the kid is musically, the wider range of stats they will consider, but I have never been able to confirm that, basically what I am sure of is they are a lot more lenient with music students with the stats, that I am sure of.
One note, with Oberlin academic stats only matter as far as I know if you want to do a double degree, you can apply only to the conservatory and I believe grades then won’t matter the same way they do at schools in a university, like U Mich, Northwestern, vanderbilt, etc.
If there’s no audition, you send a music supplement and hope a) the rest of the app intrigues them, including academic strengths and his non music activities, and b) that faculty in the music dept like his tape and pull for him. It’ll matter what the institutional needs are, what instruments and what specialties they want and need. It’s worth researching what range of performance opportunities various colleges have.
At Michigan the academic admission requirements for SMTD are lower than most other areas. The average GPA for last year’s SMTD freshmen was 3.67 (compare to 3.87 for college of engineering). See the Michigan SMTD website for more info on minimum requirements and class profile: http://www.music.umich.edu/prospective_students/admissions/ug/app_proc/acad_prep.htm
Ok, so I always get confused by posts like this. I think you are using the term “conservatory” to describe freestanding conservatories. But at a place like Oberlin the BM program IS at the conservatory.
The terms “conservatory” and “music school” ( the latter often at a larger university) refer to a BM program that is 2/3-3/4 music classes, with an emphasis on performance. Often there are prescreens and there are always auditions for admission.
The term “music department” at a college or university refers to an academic department for a BA in music (or electives for non-music majors). It is true that some music “schools” will also have a BA option. And a college like Oberlin has a BA in Musical Studies that is separate from the conservatory.
For an application to a BA program, often there are no auditions for admission (but not always). In that case you submit a music supplement to the Common Application with a recording or video, a music resume with teachers, performance, programs attended, awards etc., and it helps to include one or two letters of recommendation from music teachers or directors. These letters should not just cover talent but work ethic, ability to work with others etc.
Many colleges with a BA degree will have auditions for extracurricular music in the fall.
You can submit a music supplement regardless of major. You do not have to be a prospective music major to benefit, since music activities are mainly extracurricular, so major isn’t as relevant as with a BM.
A BA is usually 1/4-1/3 music classes and may or may not have a performance component in class. Often credit is given for lessons or even extracurricular performance, but it is an academic major and includes theory, music history, ethnomusicology, composition, technology etc.
Then there are double degrees, the BA and BM (at Harvard it is BA/MM with NEC) at schools like Oberlin, Bard, Lawrence, Ithaca, UMichigan and many others.
And double major, say a BA in music and in French, or a major/minor.
The Double Degree Dilemma posted near the top of this forum can be really helpful sorting all this out. The other thing is, your son can apply to schools that represent different options and then decide late in senior year if he is not clear on what he wants.
@compmom, I am confused by your distinctions regarding “music department”. There are universities which offer a BM (and often more advanced degrees) through the University’s “Department of Music” which is housed, in turn, within a larger “School of Something”. Degree requirements are similar to other places that offer through the degree through a stand alone “School of Music” and auditions will generally be required for admission as well as possible prescreens. For example, a number of the UCs are set up this way.
Perhaps I misunderstood your post.
Those stats look fine for a BM at many universities or LACs (in the category you mention Oberlin and Michigan). As said above call the music admissions dept to assure you are within range and don’t waste time. The admissions depts are usually helpful and straight forward. They will not be part of the audition decision so no worries.
Check out St Olaf and Lawrence. Both good fits. Also Gettysburg.
This is so great! Thank you!
MomofAdult, I tried to explain broad categories and qualified much of what I wrote with “most” or “usually.” An applicant should really look hard at every website. As I said, some BA programs WILL have performance components and WILL have auditions, and some Schools of Music will NOT have a BM degree, but in general, I was trying to give clarity to the various options and make the point that freestanding conservatories are not the only conservatory programs.
However you raise an important point that no general rule or description of programs is always going to fit and any student who wants to pursue music needs to really look into the details of each program, and also into all the options open to them.
So for the UC’s: The UCLA Herb Alpert School of Music does not offer a BM degree, which is unusual for a School of Music. It does offer a BA, MA, MM, DMA and PhD in music so the performance emphasis comes at the grad level in the MM and DMA. The Herb Alpert majors include music, ethnomusicology and musicology and therefore is quite academic at the undergrad level.
The Herb Alpert School does require both a supplement (similar to what I described for a BA)) and an audition, but still, in general BM programs require auditions and BA programs do not.
UCSD has a “Department of Music” and not a named School of Music. It offers only a BA, which is the usual situation I cited, but at the grad level there is a DMA program in performance as well as PhD. (“The Department offers a Bachelor of Arts in Music, Music Humanities, and Interdisciplinary Computing in the Arts - Music (ICAM).” UCSD will accept an optional supplement (as I described) with portfolio or tape but does not require one. No audition, which is the usual situation for a BA applicant.
Berkeley offers only a BA, MA and PhD- no performance degrees- in its Music “Department.” Berkeley does not require auditions and does not even accept supplements. Davis also has BA and PhD- academic versus performance programs- in their Music “Department” and auditions are in the fall for extracurricular performance. These are consistent with the generalities I described.
I won’t go on but again I think the general principles hold. A School of Music will have more of a performance focus. Herb Alpert is an exception in offering only a BA but does have auditions and does have performance at the grad level. UCSD is an exception only at the grad level where the “department” (versus “school of music”) does have a performance degree.
I don’t want to belabor the point. The important thing is that the BA is an academic degree USUALLY offered by an academic “music department” and USUALLY does not have a performance focus, and also the BA will have 2/3-3/4 classes outside of music for a music major, including gen eds at MOST schools.
The BM, which is GENERALLY offered at freestanding conservatories or conservatories and “schools of music” within colleges and universities is mostly music classes, Usually with a narrow focus (one instrument, composition etc.).
But watch the details for each school!!! I did not realize the Herb Alpert program did not have a BM for instance.
One other point: for some students who don’t want a BM but want to pursue a BA in music with extracurricular lessons and performance, there can be better opportunities at a school that does not have a conservatory or school of music attached, because the BM students will get the best teachers and performance opportunities. This is also not universally true so bears checking out in detail.
It’s a lot of work!
I’m wondering what think the differences are between a “conservatory setting” and a “liberal arts school with a music major”? Have you visited other schools, maybe sat in some classes, taken sample lessons? I would strongly encourage you and your son to do so.
FWIW, my son’s a jazz saxophonist who just finished his first year of college. He applied to Michigan, Oberlin, Thornton (USC), Berklee, The New School and Juilliard. (In retrospect, he wonders if he should also have applied to UNT, MSM.) We visited all of the schools (plus Jacobs, which he chose not to apply to) and had a lesson at each. His private teacher was the jazz saxophone prof at Michigan. He got in everywhere except for Juilliard and chose Berklee on the strength of his desire to study with George Garzone.
Both Michigan and Northwestern publish their minimum academic requirements (GPA, ACT/SAT scores) for their schools of music. The 3.5 GPA will be fine. I think the ACT score minimum was in the 24-25 range. Even at universities known for their academics like Michigan and NW, admission to the school of music will be about the audition assuming you meet the minimums.
Be aware that most jazz programs are small and that can mean only one jazz saxophone professor. This is the case at Michigan and Oberlin, possibly at NW.
I would also be cognizant of types of jazz and other music genres your son is interested in. Which school and its location makes a difference.
Just to clarify Oberlin has both a conservatory BM program offered by the Oberlin Conservatory of Music and a LAC BA program in Musical Studies offered by the music department http://new.oberlin.edu/arts-and-sciences/departments/musical_studies/. So that is a good place to start in understanding the difference.
A BM program will be similar whether at a freestanding conservatory like NEC or on the campus of an LAC like Oberlin.
I understand. He would be interested in a BM at the conservatory.
Screen name, your son sounds very much like mine (albeit older)! Thanks for this great info. My son’s sax teacher is a Berklee grad and I think he’s always set his sights on it for that reason. He’s at the five-week this summer and, while he loves it and Berklee will definitely remain on the list, he’s also interested in taking some courses outside the music curriculum. For instance, he’s a strong English student and would like to study some Shakespeare in college. And he’s not sure he wants to be surrounded only by musicians. So I think the idea of attending a program that is primarily music (since that is what he wants to do with his life) but part of a larger college or university might work better for him.
So far, his list is similar to your son’s: in addition to Berklee, he is interested in Oberlin, Michigan, Eastman, possibly Northwestern, and also maybe Ithaca, Bard and/or Skidmore. He has friends at UNT but does not want to go to Texas–he’s not interested in CA or FL at this point either, or NYC (we live very close to the latter, too far from the others).
All of that said, he’s only a rising junior so the picture could change. Would love any advice or suggestions you could offer.
Schools like Berklee and NEC are part of a consortium and students can take classes at Northeastern, maybe elsewhere. Northeastern is right next door. NEC and Berklee both have double degree programs with Harvard, and NEC has one wit Tufts too.
The issue is more that a BM is 2/3-3/4 music classes and also includes a lot of practice, rehearsals and performance so time is the problem, and room for electives in the degree.
Double majors are possible. Double degrees are generally 5 years. He might like the latter, since he does want the immersion experience in music. Again, the Double Degree Dilemma essay can be helpful.
Thanks, compmom. I do understand the distinctions. It’s also pretty clear, from what his Berklee teachers tell him, that double majors and double degree programs aren’t feasible in most cases given the amount of practice etc. involved. And he’s fine with that (plus no way will he get into Tufts or Harvard, as is required for the dual programs).
He’s fully committed to music and has been for a number of years – and he’s been preparing for the audition process much more carefully than the academic track. This coming year, for instance, he received permission to drop math and take French online so he can shoehorn three music courses into his day at the high school (AP theory, honors choir, honors band), in addition to marching band; the New Jersey Performing Arts Center’s student big band; the high school big band, of which he is co-director; and private sax and piano lessons.
In other words, he’s a dedicated music kid! It’s more that he would like to take the occasional English class and share the dining hall with people from a variety of backgrounds. At least, that’s where he is now. Again, he is only a rising junior so all this could change!
One more question: Is there a strong jazz program at Tulane? Surprised I don’t hear more about it. Also: Bard, maybe?
@akapiratequeen, then he has time. I would visit schools. For the jazz kids, “vibe” is important and you can’t get that from a website; you need to go there. My son decided to apply to Berklee literally on the application deadline day. Never thought it would be the school he’d choose. So you never know.
In high school, he attended summer camps at Interlochen (jazz faculty heavily associated with Jacobs) and Michigan (SMTD faculty) and he would say now that those experiences were nothing like college.
My son wasn’t so sure he wanted to be surrounded by all musicians either but he was sure that he wanted his non-music classes to take up the absolute minimum of his time and energy. In many ways, the BM degree already does that but, at Berklee, there are certainly no illusions about a well-rounded student. 
That’s not to say that he doesn’t have “desk” time – there are arranging/composition/theory classes that can be challenging and time-consuming.
He has quite a few jazz studies friends at Michigan who are double-degreeing. It’s pretty clear that none of them will end up staying in music with a performance career even if they manage to complete both degrees. But, of course, there will always be the Joshua Redman’s of the world. I just think it takes a very, very special student to successfully complete a double-degree program with the intent to continue in a jazz performance career. The Columbia - Juilliard program seems to attract/produce those who can.
Back in high school, when we started asking teachers whether S actually had the talent/potential to pursue a performance career, the most straightforward answer we got was “does he want to practice 3 hours a day, every day, for the foreseeable future?”
I didn’t know that about Herb Alpert either, but looking at their BA in music performance (what they call it), the curicula, it looks pretty much to be the same as a student would do with a BM.
This all can be confusing, and UCLA is a good example to check the actual details of the program, someone could assume that for example the BA in music performance at UCLA is not as intensive as a BM, when it is.
In terms of a standalone music school versus one in a university, the difference IME is not the level of playing, it is more about the environment. For one thing, for core courses (liberal arts courses, whatever you call them), the non music requirements, you will have a lot more choice within a university or lac in terms of what you can take, the offerings will be a lot more slim at a conservatory. The other thing is with a conservatory/stand alone school of music it is all music, if you are in a music school inside a university, there are all kinds of things going on and you can interact with other, non music people, being around other music kids exclusively 24/7 can get on some kids nerves, for example (others love it)…the actual training between a stand alone music school and a program in a university is going to be pretty much the same, however. One limiting factor in both cases is given the load of a performance program, it isn’t all that easy to be heavily involved outside the music school.
There also is confusion with “school of music” and “music department”, some schools for example call it their ‘school of music’, when they don’t offer performance degrees of any kind, it refers to the academic music department (ie music history, theory, ethnomusicology, etc).
good point @musicprnt about more choice of non-music classes overall but it is also worth noting that at a university or LAC you also might have more gen ed requirements overall than you’d have at a conservatory. That can be a good, bad, or neutral thing depending on the kid. Two music schools that my S otherwise really liked had extensive gen eds required (university-wide requirements) and there honestly was not a lot of choice for classes that fulfilled those gen eds, either, so those schools dropped down S’s list since he wanted as few gen eds as possible and as few math/science classes as possible.
As you said, you have to look carefully at the individual schools. We didn’t really have time to do a deep dive into the curriculum and gen ed requirements until applications were in, but you do need to do enough research to be confident the program meets your needs before applying.