<p>My son is a second year student at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland and is having a difficult time getting used to the system there. He flunked one bio class his first year, and now flunked two bio classes his first semester of second year. (They had him take an even a heavier academic load first semester of second year to "make up" for the one bio class flunked first year. ) This was bad advice from his academic adviser who wouldn't let him switch to Economics although he did better in those classes. I have looked at the course material and it is very advanced, it seems harder than my medical school classes.
Now he is in the middle of spring semester finals and dreading it. He thinks he will need to transfer out if he does not get into St. Andrews honors economic program.
I need perspective and what are his chances of being able to transfer to an American college.
How does grading over in Scotland work? His SATs were about 2100.
Thanks, momshrink</p>
<p>I’m assuming if he’s “getting used to the system”, that means he’s a US citizen and used to attend American schools. Why did he go to St Andrew’s in the first place? Did he apply to other US schools? Bio, at many schools, is challenging. It does sound like the school doesn’t easily allow him to switch his major and that should be the biggest reason why he might want to make a change. </p>
<p>If he wants to transfer, the earlier the better. There’s usually a requirement to be at the new school for 2 years or 4 semesters or about 60 credits.</p>
<p>St. Andrews runs on a system somewhat between American and English which ends up meaning that it is generally hard to change your major (which is generally called ‘your course’ over the Pond). The UK schools tend to assume a higher initial level of knowledge in your ‘course’ area, so a bright American who hadn’t taken some advanced bio/chem could find it very difficult.</p>
<p>Thanks Limabeans,
He was accepted at UCSD, Loyola Marymount, USF and Creighton to mention a few and got 4 year scholarships for about half his tuition and board many of them. He really wanted to study abroad and St. Andrews makes the application process easy compared to other UK universities. It’s been awhile since I went to college, so thanks for the tip of transferring soon.</p>
<p>He took AP/Honors science classes since freshman year of H.S. but they really do not compare to what the first year biology is like at St. Andrews. I like I said before, I am an MD, and used to academic loads, but this was impressive at St. Andrews for first year and second year I might add.
I am just wondering what is typical for grades and what he should expect as acceptable for the other classes. Are 11 and 12 scores okay?</p>
<p>Momshrink I sent you a PM</p>
<p>A friend of mine’s child (American) was a student at St. Andrew’s for first 2 years of college. Mom thought all was well and then found out very late in the game - Spring Break of soph year - that child was miserable and struggling, but didn’t want to worry the parent, who had been having some health issues of her own (a sibling spilled the beans to Mom). Together they decided it wasn’t right and they searched for any schools that were accepting transfers at that late point. Kid did get into a well known U. in the US and was very happy there - just graduated. So, if it’s really not working, it may be worthwhile to consider other options.</p>
<p>I have heard a similar tale: bright American student, struggled with the grading system at St Andrews. All or almost all of the grade was determined by the final exam, very few papers were assigned, little in class discussion. Student was very anxious. St Andrews staff was unresponsive.</p>
<p>St. Andrews does recruit pretty heavily here, yet are not really open on how there system is different and you really have to search to get to the “sink or swim” attitude they have.
Hmmh, I wonder if it has anything to do with the full tuition we pay and how much that helps the bottom line for them?</p>
<p>Please listen to your inner voice and support your son by telling him that it is no crime to get in over one’s head – what matters now is how he gets into water where he can swim successfully. </p>
<p>One of ours developed sleep apnea during his sophomore year – we knew he was struggling but it was hard to know the culprit. There are always lots of possibilities: health, heavy reading load, demanding professor, weird food, wonderful (too chatty) or horrible roommate, sweetheart issues . . . the list goes on and on. </p>
<p>So give him the green light to lay this package down. If he needs out of there, then out he should come. Give him the whole green light and he may dig in and say "well, I’m not ready to ditch it all, but maybe I’ll give up this piece. . . " and you can start navigating forward. I do believe Prince William switched from . . art history (?) to geography after a first year that was rocky. </p>
<p>As to transferring to the U.S., that is going to be a school by school deal. You probably realize that you are off the regular cycle (most transfer applications were done by late January) but don’t let that deter son. Many colleges have some shifting over the summer – and will reach into their waitlist or to a promising transfer student late in the year. Son could also do the paperwork and shoot for a January admission. </p>
<p>The hardest places to transfer into are going to be the top 50 US colleges and those will look askance at his Scotland struggles – so skip those and have him look at the other 3,900 colleges in the US. Honestly, there are fine colleges that would love to have him (Pacific College in OR needs some more fellows! Pretty campus too!). </p>
<p>Mostly you can tell him that you are supportive of any number of paths – and that he does not have to stick with this one. Go ahead and tell him that you love him even if he earns the “One legged A” (Aggie-ism for “F”). Once he knows that the worst that can happen isn’t going to make you freak, he’ll feel better and more capable. Good luck to both of you.</p>
<p>I’m not sure its so much a reflection of St. As as simply a very different educational system and different standards for American HS and college. We find a lot of American kids also struggle when they come to Canadian universities and the reverse is not true. Outside the US, there is less hand-holding, far less grade inflation, and overall different and higher expectations. What is considered “AP” in US highschools isn’t even comparable to actual university elsewhere in so many cases (including good US schools).</p>
<p>I go to Edinburgh, and the system is very similar to St Andrews. </p>
<p>It is very different from the US; nearly all of your mark is based on the exam you take at the end of term, so if you mess that up, you’re not going to pass the course. I think also that yes, the courses are generally harder here as well. There’s a reason that you only need a 70% to get an A in your courses. </p>
<p>If he’s not happy there, then it probably isn’t too late to transfer. Another two years to finish is a long time.</p>
<p>My daughter is looking to just go abroad a year to England or Scotland and said past students who went and talked to US students there, the biggest issue was adjusting to a new grading system and the “hands-off” attitude most have. Students there are used to it, but even when told, many American students really didn’t appreciate it until they were actually in class. Sometimes it’s just not a good fit, no fault of the student.</p>
<p>Everybody thank you for the all the advice and input. Now I wish I would have joined College Confidential sooner to inquire about St. Andrews. Good old 20/20 hindsight! All is not lost, at least my student got to meet Wills and Kate and shake there hand when they visited St. Andrews a couple of months ago. As the months ensue I will update you all. Shrinkmom</p>
<p>I so agree with Olymom. Sometimes we bite off more than we can chew. Sometimes we get into trouble. Sometimes we make mistakes. Sometimes things just don’t go right. It’s all right to take a deep breath, look at the situation, and maybe come home to regroup. That;s what we can do as parents is provide a safehouse for our kids when things just don’t turn out right.</p>
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<p>So very true. The systems are different as are the expectations.</p>
<p>Thank you, Momshrink, I hope you do come back to update us. This is a topic Im very interested in. D has her degree from a UK uni (Oxford) but she went to school in the UK and was well used to the system. Her academic experience was much more challenging than my undergrad experience at Harvard no wiggle room when everything hinges on an exam .No place to hide when youre in a one-to-one tutorial. St.Andrews appears to recruit heavily in the US and I have wondered about the retention rate for its international students. Obviously it takes a student with guts to embark on a degree in a foreign country but it also takes guts to know when its time to change course. Best of luck to you and your son.</p>
<p>I will let you know how it all turns out. Exam results come back June 7th.</p>