<p>Something I found interesting there is the Student/Faculty ratio given under the "Academics" tab for each college. It's interesting to see which state schools have low S/F ratios and how private schools compare. Information on Most Frequent Class Size is also given. Here's a sampling:</p>
<p>(S/F ratio) - School Name (Most freq class size)-(Most freq lab/sub-section size) </p>
<p>4:1 University of Chicago (2-9) (2-9)
5:1 Rice University (10-19) (2-9)
7:1 Case Western Reserve (10-19) (10-19)
7:1 Stanford University (10-19) (10-19)
9:1 University of Rochester (10-19) (2-9)
9:1 Cornell University (20-29) (10-19)
10:1 Kenyon College (10-19) (2-9)
10:1 Carnegie Mellon (10-19) (10-19)
11:1 Columbia College (10-19) (2-9)
11:1 Denison University (10-19) (10-19)
11:1 C. of William and Mary (20-29) (2-9)
12:1 Syracuse University (10-19) (10-19)
12:1 Villanova University (20-29) (10-19)
13:1 Allegheny College (10-19) (2-9)
13:1 Dickinson College (10-19) (10-19)
13:1 University of Notre Dame (10-19) (10-19)
13:1 Boston College (20-29) (2-9)
13:1 Rose-Hulman Institute (20-29) (10-19)
13:1 University of Wisconsin (20-29) (10-19)
14:1 UNC at Chapel Hill (10-19) (10-19)
14:1 Ohio State University (20-29) (10-19)
14:1 University of Illinois (20-29) (20-29)
15:1 University of Michigan (20-29) (10-19)
15:1 University of Pittsburgh (20-29) (10-19)
15:1 Purdue University (20-29) (10-19)
15:1 University of Virginia (20-29) (10-19)
16:1 Clemson University (20-29) (20-29)
17:1 James Madison University (20-29) (10-19)
17:1 Penn State University (20-29) (10-19)
17:1 U Mass, Amherst (20-29) (10-19)
17:1 Miami University OH (20-29) (10-19)
17:1 University of Colorado (20-29) (20-29)
18:1 Indiana University (20-29) (10-19)
18:1 University of Maryland (20-29) (20-29)
19:1 Ohio University (20-29) (10-19)</p>
<p>be careful with those stats. We visited the university of the sciences in philadelphia, and they clued us in on something. Most schools essentially take the population of the college, or a specific department, and divide that by the number of professors and that is your stat. they do not take into account that some high end chemistry class that only einstein could pass has 2 kids in it. or that some college professors are part time and only teach a rare few classes. that is not factored in, nor is the class of basic english that has 250 kids in it watching a video screen. that is what you have to ask, specifics.</p>
<p>amith is right about the unreliability of the student faculty ratio. I remember a Harvard report that said something like: 75% of the classes have fewer than 20 students; 75% of students are in classes with more than 20 students (and some, as we know, have hundreds of students).
Freshmen are more likely to take introductory classes, and introductory classes (unless they are freshmen seminars) tend to be larger. This may be one of the most disorienting aspects of the transition into college, going from classes with 25 students to classes with 250.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Most schools essentially take the population of the college, or a specific department, and divide that by the number of professors and that is your stat.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm not sure why the Philadelphia school felt that was some sort of special "clue" they were giving. Strictly speaking, the very definition dictates that is how one should figure it. It's the ratio of students to faculty. But they also misled you. </p>
<p>In reality, colleges can't do this any ol' way they want. There's a pretty standard methodology that dictates how they count part time students and part time faculty in that number. They're not counted the same as full-time, despite what that college told you. Also, universities have some challenges because not all faculty teach undergraduates. So there is a specific formula for dealing with that, although I think most people would agree it is flawed. Its main purpose is to level the playing field so school are reporting numbers they derived in the same manner.</p>
<p>
[quote]
amith is right about the unreliability of the student faculty ratio. I remember a Harvard report that said something like: 75% of the classes have fewer than 20 students; 75% of students are in classes with more than 20 students (and some, as we know, have hundreds of students).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes, I agree that there may be a disconnect between the ratio and the class size. </p>
<p>However, I think the problem isn't the patent unrealiability of ratios, but rather how easy it is to misinterpret average class size. The harvard professor was right. Thinking of a LAC that was mentioned in another thread, large classes appear to be very rare given that they make up something like only 2% of all classes. But the parent noted that the "very rare" large class was something like Intro to Psych. Which is a class many, many, students are going to take. It might be an uncommon size, but it's not an uncommon class. Most students are going to experience one or two (or more) of those intro classes. </p>
<p>There may be dozens and dozens of small intimate classes available, and they may be the reason the college can, truthfully, claim that most classes are under 20 students. But no student can fill her schedule with only those sorts of classes, and most will be classes she never takes! The college catalog is a big thing, mostly filled out with small upper-level specialized classes. Unless a student takes every class in the catalog, she is not going to experience class sizes at the same ratios they appear in the summary stats.</p>
<p>Now, this isn't to say that at a LAC, a student won't have lots of small classes, or won't have, on average, smaller classes than she's have at Behemoth U. But marite is absolutely right here--it would be easy to misunderstand those numbers!</p>
<p>Actually, there is no formula for excluding grad school professors and grad students except when the grad school is a standalone school like a med school or law school.</p>
<p>So all of the professors in the arts and sciences are counted whether they teach undergrads or not. Also, all of the grad students in those departments are counted as well. So the very small student/faculty ratios in PhD programs distorts the results significantly. The published ratios for universities are not necessarily reflective of undergrad ratios at all, especially for schools with a high proportion of grad students.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Thinking of a LAC that was mentioned in another thread, large classes appear to be very rare given that they make up something like only 2% of all classes.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The large classes ARE very rare. My D took 8 courses freshman year. Here are the departments and class sizes:</p>
<p>Physics seminar: 11 (lab section 6)
Math: 15/10 (this was two half-semester courses)
Psych: 70 (discussion sections 15)
English: 15
Soc/Anthro seminar: 12
Soc/Anthro seminar: 12
Soc/Anthro: 25
Art History: 40 (now capped at 25 for this year)</p>
<p>In addition, D says that most departments at Swarthmore have a universal cap of 25 students in a class, including the Math, Soc/Anthro, Poli Sci, English, History, and Econ departments (of those she knows about).</p>
<p>Basically, the only classes over 50 are Intro Psych and a couple of survey Bio and Chem courses. Most other departments break up their intro courses into multiple sections.</p>
<p>Don't forget to include the many small seminars for FROSH at many schools and the special HONORS programs/courses that have low census of students.</p>
<p>Imperfect though the ratios may be, they also serve as an indicator of how easily a student can interact with faculty. You can guarantee that, at a college with a high student faculty ratio, it will be harder to find a lab to work in, find a prof under which to do a project etc. Sheer numbers work against the student. Even in colleges with rock star faculty that only work with grad students (at best), they have colleagues lower on the food chain who will work with others.</p>
<p>class size to a college is like profits to an accountant; they can make it be almost anything you want it to be.</p>
<p>Another thing to keep in mind is that any single number masks the impact of larger classes. If you have a class with 300 students in it that will be the experience of ALL 300 students. If you now have 15 classes of 20 kids the average class size is about 29, but 1/2 the kids are sitting in a giant class with 300.</p>
<p>With the internet these days you have a huge step up in investigating colleges once you've narrowed down your choices somewhat. Almost all colleges have their schedule of classes online, so you can look and see what the class size if for classes your kid is likely to take.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Another thing to keep in mind is that any single number masks the impact of larger classes. If you have a class with 300 students in it that will be the experience of ALL 300 students. If you now have 15 classes of 20 kids the average class size is about 29, but 1/2 the kids are sitting in a giant class with 300.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>A word in defense of large classes. Granted, there are some classes that can be expected to have large enrollments. Organic chemistry is one. Intro psych seems to be another. But when they have the choice, students do not always choose to be in small classes and avoid large ones. For example, Yale has a general education distribution requirement. So, presumably, any social sciences class can be used to fulfill the social sciences requirement. And many, if not most, of these classes have 15 or fewer students. Yet, year in year out, Jonathan Spence's class on Chinese history draws students by the hundreds (I once read 600, but the numbers may fluctuate). Obviously, that class must be wonderful for students to flock to it without being required to take it. In other words, In fact, when we toured Yale, our guide raved about it (she was a government major) while extolling the virtues of the distribution requirement over a core curriculum (take that, Columbia, Harvard or Chicago).</p>
<p>
[quote]
Actually, there is no formula for excluding grad school professors and grad students except when the grad school is a standalone school like a med school or law school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm aware of the formula. This is why, in post #4, I say many people feel it is flawed for universities. </p>
<p>In your daughter's experience, perhaps, large classes are rare, but at many colleges, even small colleges, students have a pretty high "chance" of ending up in one of those few larger classes. If you were able to do a transcript analysis of many students at institutions, rather than just that of your daughter at one liberal arts college, this would be perhaps easier to see. Mikemac's math is also helpful.</p>
<p>I'd like to point out that this data includes more information than just S/F ratio. It might not be obvious from the poor format of the table I listed. It includes the all-important "most frequent class size" and "most frequent lab/section size" information. This is an indicator of whether a student is able to enroll in mostly small classes or not.</p>
<p>4:1 University of Chicago (2-9) (2-9)</p>
<p>9:1 Cornell University (20-29) (10-19)</p>
<p>11:1 C. of William and Mary (20-29) (2-9)</p>
<p>For example, the data says that while Cornell, a largely private school, has a S/F ratio of 9:1, the "most frequent class size" is between 20 and 29.</p>
<p>William & Mary, a state school, has a S/F ratio of 11:1 and a most frequent class size the same as Cornell.</p>
<p>UChicago has a stunning 4:1 ratio and a mere 2 to 9 students in most classes - certainly impressive evidence to support those who argue it's an underrated institution.</p>
<p>Like anything, you do have to question the accuracy of such data.</p>
<p>I don't think ie ver had more than 25 people in a class. If i did it would of only been like once or twice. Most of my classes were about 10-20.</p>
<p>You are drawing flawed conclusions from a simplistic set of data: </p>
<p>School A</p>
<p>2-9 students - 28%
10-19 students - 29%
20 - 29 students - 30%
29 - 30 students - 10%
30- 39 students - 1%
40 - 49 students - 1%
50 - 99 students - 1%
100+ students - 0%</p>
<p>School B</p>
<p>2-9 students - 0%
10-19 students -10%
20 - 29 students - 30%
29 - 30 students - 20%
30- 39 students - 15%
40 - 49 students - 10
50 - 99 students - 10%
100+ students - 5%</p>
<p>Both schools have "the largest number" of their classes in the 20-29 range. But, are they really similar in terms of class size?</p>
<p>Stating that "largest number" of the classes fall in a single range is a statistic designed to mask differences.</p>
<p>I see it has most classes between 20-29 for my college. of the 11 courses i took my senior year, i'd say only about 2 had more than 20 people in them. of the 12 courses i had junior year i'd guess maybe 3-4 had more than 20 people in them. i'd guess that the fresh. and soph. years had about 20-25.</p>
<p>interesteddad, I agree a more complete class size chart would be better.</p>
<p>I have come across a very small number of schools that show that information. The S/F ratio is widely used and I believe is a criteria for rankings lists like US News.</p>
<p>Where can a more complete chart be found to compare class sizes?</p>
<p>To some degree, you are paying for more attention and smaller classes in a private school vs a public college. But some private schools have large classes. Are there state schools that have smaller classes? Which ones?</p>
<p>The Common Data Set forms that all colleges submit to USNEWS, P'ton Review, etc. have a complete breakdown of class sizes. The ficticious breakdowns for School A and School B I posted above are the size categories listed in the Common Data Set.</p>
<p>Most colleges post their Common Data Set questionairres somewhere on their websites, often in PDF format, although they don't alway make it real easy to find them!</p>
<p>Try using the college website's search engine for things like "Common Data Set" or "Institutional Research".</p>
<p>Here's a post from a while back in which someone had gathered up the links for a number of colleges.</p>