Student Sues Princeton Over Learning Disability Accommodations

Parents Forum
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<p>Exactly. As the learning disability diagnoses pile up it becomes increasingly difficult to distinguish someone with learning disability(ies) from someone who just isn’t very smart. How do we draw that distinction? Maybe the concept of “not very smart” is going away, and here in Lake Wobegon everyone is above average but just have various “learning disabilities.” </p>

<p>As a society, is it a wise use of our universities to have the courts force them to accept and accommodate everybody - no matter how poorly suited to college level work they may be?</p>

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<p>hat happens when these kids get out in the real world? How do they handle the stresses of a real job in real time?</p>

<p>there are many, many jobs out there ( well not * now* - but for example I do not beleive contractors/electricians/plumbers work on a schedule) :wink:
putting in artificial constraints, like timed tests ( when in many subjects, a well designed test doesn’t need to be timed to show what you know), is not going to help them become acclimated faster so they can succeed in the " real world".</p>

<p>However, if they are able to get supports so they can further explore and gain knowledge in areas that they do well, that can give them confidence to persist until they find a place that works for them</p>

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<p>boysx3, I imagine that could be a genuine concern. Hopefully these kids eventually find their niche if they are self aware of their areas of struggle and proficiency. I do believe that things have a way of eventually sorting themselves out. My dyslexic son is a slower reader and writer and very self aware, he tends to avoid reading and writing intensive classes so he gravitates toward his strengths and not his weaknesses and I assume he will continue into his working career in that same manner. Others may soldier on to try and overcome their weaknesses or allow others to push them, some with positive outcomes others perhaps not so positive. Self awareness of strengths and limitations is part of the key I do believe.</p>

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<p>I agree. To me, the bigger issue (and has always been, with LD, with which naturally being in the field I am very familiar) is whether Princeton should have accepted her, and whether in addition she should have applied to such a level of U, considering in addition grade deflation and the extremely high curve in P classes due to the level of student quality. She appears to have multiple problematic LD categories. Princeton knows that when the student has a clear diagnosis and the accompanying paperwork, they must accommodate, but there’s no requirement to admit a student who presents with significant academic challenges.</p>

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<p>A friend of mine is a 3rd grade teacher in florida. For her, it gets very sad when she gets a kid who cant read at a 3rd grade level and yet, their IQ tests (in testing) suggests they just aren’t that smart. Apparently, there has to be a level of disparity between IQ and performance to equate to a learning disability vs someone who just isn’t that smart to begin with. So… if she has a crack kid who can’t read and there isn’t enough gap between ability and IQ, they don’t get special ed services.</p>

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<p>^Correct, but I think this is more of a practical consideration. They get around the law by suggesting that there’s no “need” ultimately to accommodate. It’s just that, trust me, it’s enormous work (and at home, difficult, time-consuming work – much more so than someone with equivalent IQ and no LD) nevertheless for a high-IQ LD kid to self-compensate, which is what they do.</p>

<p>It’s a matter of triage. For example, in private high schools which do have LD services they will nevertheless overtly not accommodate – and state that – for students who are able to cope with their LD because they are what is called “highly compensated.” My younger D spent from Grade 3 on doing this. She is now a soph at a reach public and still compensating. In her case, however, it was she who refused offered accommodation in high school, due to her competitive nature. (Then she regretted doing so later when it made her non-eligibile for SAT accommodation, despite her certified diagnosis.)</p>

<p>Either way, the private schools get away with not offering special ed; in my State, it is more difficult in the publics, because parents can complain in an instant & the services will then have to be provided.</p>

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<p>I think this is why Princeton doesn’t want to give her the accomodation . . . A Princeton degree is supposed to signal something to employers. They want their “A’s”, “B’s”, whatever, to symbolize a certain level of ability . . . not “a certain level of ability, as long as they’re given twice as much time as everyone else.” Speed, as well as knowledge, is a part of ability. If employers start feeling the Princeton graduates they hire don’t work at the efficiency they expect, it could damage Princeton’s reputation.</p>

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<p>Well think about this, any potential employer that googles this girl’s name in in the future is going to see the complete list of her “issues” along with a willingness to “sue” to get what she wants. The whole thing could be rather short sighted in my opinion. The old expression pick your battles carefully is an favorite old expression for a reason.</p>

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<p>epiphany - I have found our experience between public and private quite the opposite of what you describe. My oldest D had to jump thru a multitude of hoops in order to receive ANY accomodations - including merely sitting in the front row in a class room let alone any extended time on tests. Fill in the time with shaming her to think she was stupid and you have a kid who didn’t see her 130IQ and instead was TAUGHT to believe she had no right to an equal education. Her younger sister, much the same type of learner and mostly the same difficulties in a private school where she has been taught to advocate for herself, encouraged to ask for quiet spaces to take certain tests (there’s one kid who basically mumbles when taking a test in her math class and is like nails on a chalkboard for her on the distraction scale) and you have a kid who is a much more engaged learner who doesn’t ask for things she doesn’t absolutely need and feels respected and liked by her teachers. It breaks my heart that the public school had the opinion that you had to have a regular and persistent pattern of failure in order to get any help whatsoever. However, I will also point out that she graduated HS in 2003 and it amazes me how much research is now widely accepted whereas back then I had one teacher say to her, “You’re so pretty and charming. You don’t want your teachers to know you’re disabled, do you?” I kid you not.</p>

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<p>The law dot com article says she was diagnosed with all of this back in 2003. I hate to sound mean, but considering what some of her learning issues are, I cannot help but think that she would totally need newer testing. </p>

<p>Some, not all, of her issues sound kind of off to me. Her soccer playing skills alone preclude her from technically having one of her issues to a rather severe degree for sure. </p>

<p>But, if she has old testing, then she might not even be aware of what she and the offices over at Princeton could help her with now. This whole things seems to me that she was placated into certain accommodations whilst at Middle School and was never given any other alternatives with a thing or two.</p>

<p>The bottom line is that sometimes, LD students should maybe have really up to date testing prior to going to or even applying for University. Personally, I am an advocate for anyone with a LD who is to go to University or CC or what have you to just please try their best to get most current LD testing the summer before their first fall semester. </p>

<p>I think that no one at any time tried to assist this gal out. Ideally, someone should have intervened with her long ago and tried to have helped her out with increasing her processing speed in a very gentle and peaceful way. I read that she went to a rather good high school and I am appalled that she was locked into the same old song and dance for an eternity.</p>

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<p>By law, an applicant is not required to self-identify during the application process. However, if he/she is accepted and needs accommodations, he/she must self-identify to the school’s Disabilities Office and submit proper documentation proving a disability and requesting any supports/accommodations. It sounds as if this Princeton student self-identified during the application process (not sure how and to whom the self-identification was revealed), so Princeton was aware of this before accepting her. </p>

<p>Once a student has sufficiently documented that he or she has a qualifying disability, a college is responsible for providing reasonable accommodations or modifications that do not result in unfair advantage, require significant alteration to the program or activity, result in the lowering of academic or technical standards, or cause the college to incur undue financial hardship. When accommodations are necessary they must be provided in a timely fashion (Smith v. State University of New York, 1997)</p>

<p>Princeton accepted her and should give “reasonable” accommodations. It’s my understanding that 100% more time is unusual in both HS and college but not necessarily unreasonable or posing an unfair advantage. 50% more time on tests is much more common for well-documented disabilities like this and is considered reasonable and not unfair in most cases. Princeton should not be making blanket statements as to what they do or do not offer to students with disabilities. That’s not how the law works. However, each case must be looked at on an individual basis.</p>

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<p>I am totally in favor of making accommodations for learning disabilities if the transcript clearly specifies what accommodations were made in each class.</p>

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<p>Edited to note: I got interrupted and finished this after some of the above posts. Annieroses provides some of the same information. Here is my original post:</p>

<p>The negativity of a lot of the responses here surprises me! In the gentlest way possible, I would suggest that some of these opinions reflect a lack of knowledge, and it might help if some posters did some reading and reflecting on all this. I would perhaps feel the same way, who knows, except my child’s extensive medical problems have made it necessary for me to advocate for her (or, rather, at this point, she advocates for herself) at a certain other Ivy League school.</p>

<p>Here is a site that details rights under the ADA for post-secondary students, rights which are (currently) not as extensive as those at the high school level (based on the idea that high school is compulsory, but college is not, a concept which may need to change now that college is essential for many kids in the way that high school used to be).</p>

<p>[ADA</a> Q & A: Section 504 & Postsecondary Education](<a href=“http://www.pacer.org/publications/adaqa/504.asp]ADA”>http://www.pacer.org/publications/adaqa/504.asp)</p>

<p>Notice the language: colleges cannot be required to do any accommodation that “results in a fundamental alteration of program” or that imposes “undue financial or administrative burdens.”</p>

<p>However. also notice (if you read toward the end) that extended time on tests is a fairly standard accommodation that is considered reasonable for a student to expect at the college level.</p>

<p>I think it might help to think about the quality of the student’s writing and insights. A person can have attention issues, reading issue, trouble writing physically, and so on, but have a deep understanding, say, of literature. Regardless of grades, the student should have a right to be able to express that understanding to the best of her ability, which might require some extra time. What a shame it would be to cut her effort short, at 60 minutes, when 90 or 120 minutes would allow her to finish communicating her thoughts.</p>

<p>Accommodations at the college level are the next big frontier for “diversity.” Colleges are dealing with legal challenges more often now, because the kids who grew up with ADA accommodations in their previous schooling, are now used to and experienced in getting those accommodations. Is this a good thing, maybe yes…time will tell.</p>

<p>Also, since more accommodations are offered in elementary, middle and high school, more students with disabilities of all kinds are applying to top colleges, because they have been able to achieve more with this ADA support. In other words, a school like Princeton would not have even had a student like this, even 15 years ago. I hope that posters here do not want to turn the clock back entirely on this: much can be gained by this “inclusion” on campus, even if we admit some limited possibility for abuse.</p>

<p>If students are admitted to a college, ethically (if not legally, as yet) perhaps they are entitled to whatever accommodations helped get them admitted, since their maximum level of accomplishment was obviously attained with that support.</p>

<p>If a student discloses the disability, during the admissions process, then I feel that the college has basically entered into a contract with the student, by admitting her. If the student has disclosed that her success at the high school level was reached with accommodations, and the college knows about this when that student is admitted, then they are guaranteeing the same support at the college, at least unless they discuss this with the student and say otherwise. </p>

<p>Granted, college admissions offices are not allowed to discriminate on this basis, but that prohibition against discrimination needs to extend over the next few years of college attendance, not just admissions. Also, “overcoming obstacles” has become a significant admissions criteria, and having learning disabilities could qualify.</p>

<p>There is a lot of variation between colleges on all this, in terms of policy, and disability office staff have different attitudes as well. Also, some colleges have a “survival of the fittest” culture, and others have a “culture of kindness.”</p>

<p>In many colleges, the policy comes down to what individual professors will allow (and I know a blind girl who has received D’s when she was not given the work by her aide in time, which is outrageous, simply because of her professor’s rigid attitude). Sometimes just giving professors creative ideas (such as a student doing a short paper when class discussion is missed. in lieu of the class) works. However, many of the professors share the attitudes expressed here on this thread, and do not understand the concept of leveling the playing field. They are also caught up in the rigor and prestige of their own institution, and their own class, and may feel diminished themselves in some way by, say, giving extra time to someone who needs it.</p>

<p>The movement for rights in academics is making its way up to colleges, and there have been some successful legal challenges. I predict that eventually, any school that gets federal funds will have to meet the same standard as high schools do now, and that things will become more standardized from school to school, as a result of law suits like this.</p>

<p>I applaud this girl for her courage, and for taking on this legal battle, on behalf of many others. It is not an easy road. </p>

<p>Has the pendulum swung too far? Perhaps there are too many diagnoses, and too many accommodations offered, perhaps not. But better to err in favor or justice, than go the other way. It hurts nobody, unless you view learning as a competitive activity, perhaps. And perhaps that is the crux of all this. Learning is not a race, or a sport. And there are countless successful people with learning disabilities. If slowness is a problem, there are professions in which depth is valued over speed, or the person can be, say, a self-employed writer. </p>

<p>The ADA extends to the workplace in the same way it extends to colleges, with almost identical language. Once this generation of kids graduates from colleges, these issues will crop up more with employment!</p>

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<p>Mildred</p>

<p>You’re right. If her latest disability testing/evals. went back to 2003, she would most likely need more up-to-date evals. I had the feeling that was when her disabilities were first diagnosed and not necessarily when they were last confirmed. Most colleges require testing within the past 3 yrs. It is the student’s responsibility to find out the college’s requirements on disability documentation. I looked at Princeton’s site and did not notice a specific requirement on how many yrs. back they look at testing.</p>

<p>[url=<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/ods]Home[/url”>Office of Disability Services]Home[/url</a>]</p>

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<p>I wish there were some way to take a student with learning disabilities and help them out with increasing their processing speed in a gentle and peaceful way. Or, indeed, in a vicious and forceful way. I’d have signed my son up for that in a millisecond. </p>

<p>Medication is the only way I know, and (1) a lot of students find it stops working after a couple of years, and (2) I doubt that NCAA athletes can take it.</p>

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<p>I have no dog in this hunt, but if Princeton admitted her, they have no choice but to see that she graduates.</p>

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<p>^^yes, but she wants more than what was offered that is the gist of the lawsuit. It’s kind of a screwy contract really. You accept the “contract”…we want you we’ll offer you admission", you accept the contract, “yes I’m coming” and then you start talking about modifications. It’s all kind of goofy and feels like all that extraneous stuff should be worked out before you accept the offer.</p>

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<p>I thought you had to have new testing done every three years in order for it to apply. And in no way is Princeton on the hook to make sure she graduates. The offer of admission to ANY college never includes a guarantee of graduation. Even in those schools that guarantee graduation in four years, there’s some constraints on that promise and you (as the student) have to meet some of those obigations yourself.</p>

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<p>“Or, indeed, in a vicious and forceful way.”</p>

<p>Cardinal Fang, enjoyed your post.</p>

<p>Mom of 3 Boys, Admissions plays no role in establishing accommodations at the college. That is done through the disabilities office.</p>

<p>As annieroses said, a student is not required to disclose any disability to admissions, and should get the very same accommodations as the student who does choose to disclose. (Sorry if I was misleading)</p>

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<p>I don’t think there is an easy answer especially when ETS/ACT are not allowed to flag tests with the notation “Scores Obtained Under Special Conditions” for students who, due to their disability, take their tests under special arrangements, such as being given extra time. </p>

<p>For the most part, when a college sees a set of scores/grades from a student, with the exception of resource room, and self contained classes (which will be coded on the student’s transcript), how do they really know to what context the grades and scores are given? The student does not have to reveal the disability, the school has to protect the confidentiality of student’s medical condition, so they can’t yell out “hey all those grades are a result of accomodations!!”</p>

<p>Even here on CC pany parents side with don’t ask don’t tell when it comes to disclosing disabilities. </p>

<p>In the thread to tell or not to tell, the majority of the posters advise against disclosing.</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/learning-differences-challenges-ld-adhd/777301-tell-not-tell-question.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/learning-differences-challenges-ld-adhd/777301-tell-not-tell-question.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>There are a lot of things that we do not know.</p>

<p>Did the student disclose her disabilities when she applied to Princeton? If yes, to what extent?</p>

<p>When accepted, did she contact the office of Disability Services to find out what accomodations would the school give her and to what extent?</p>