<p>True, dat. But we do know that she was a recruited athlete in soccer – all state in HS. Thus, it is probable that everyone who knew her “knew” about her learning disabilities, particularly her HS coach. Moreover, the family has long ties to Pton – her brother also played soccer for them.</p>
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<p>Of course that’s true, but the simple fact is that certain colleges, like Stanford, don’t give out Fs. Thus, it is darn near impossible to flunk out. Earning A’s might not be easy, but earning F’s is not easy either. </p>
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<p>Exactly, and no administrator or judge (or anyone) really knows where to draw the line for ADA – heck, Congress sure didn’t know when they wrote the law. But, it is in the academic’s nature to be extremely expansive – they have to be. They admitted her and should give her the time that her brother had:</p>
<p>“timed tests are pretty rare out there in the real world.”</p>
<p>They’re very common for lawyers, which is why these accommodation issues become even stickier with law schools. Many firms bill their clients by the hour. But you can’t tell a client that you’re charging him twice as much because the LD associate needs twice as long to work. On the flip side, there is no way a firm could allow a young lawyer to discount half her hours as non-billable because she works slowly - they expect the young lawyers to bill close to every working minute.</p>
<p>Yes, there may be a way that these students are able to practice (by starting their own law firm, for example). But just about every job in the law requires on rapid language processing, and the brand of the law school depends on its graduates’ preparedness for entry-level work in any field of the law. It’s an awful problem.</p>
<p>Wow. Only nine students (the suing student and eight others) get accommodations at for disabilities at Princeton? Accommodations of any kind, including obvious accommodations for things like deafness? Out of a student body of something like 5000-6000? That’s a small number.</p>
<p>But the fact still remains that she was not obligated to disclose her disabilities in the application process. Once accepted, we don’t know how the conversation played out, if before accepting the offer to Princeton, the student told disability svs that she would need A, B, and C, would you be able to provide these accomodations? IF Princeton told her yes, before she accepted their offer of admissions, by all mean, it is only fair that they hold up their end of the bargain.</p>
<p>If student only requested A and B then comes later to the table to inform Princeton that she also needs C and Princeton is not able to make that accomodation, then it is a different story.</p>
<p>I have the feeling that her athletic ability had a lot to do with her admission to Princeton, and possibly with her admission to her private high school before that. It seems highly unlikely that her stats reflected the standard applied to un-hooked Princeton students. </p>
<p>IMHO, if she cannot take medication to control her attention-deficit disability and remain a varsity athlete, then she should either take the meds and content herself with club soccer at Princeton, or not take the meds and play varsity soccer at a school that is less challenging than Princeton where she could succeed with reasonable accommodations.</p>
<p>This kind of trade-off between pursuing activities at a demanding level and achieving academic success is not pleasant, but it is one that other students make all the time. Because she is at Princeton, she does not risk losing a scholarship if she stops competing on the soccer field. Perhaps it’s time for her to decide whether she is really a student or a professional soccer player.</p>
<p>Clearly, a full discussion of her disabilities and the necessary accommodations should have taken place during her recruitment. Princeton did her no favor by accepting her if she was likely to be in way over her head academically. On the other hand, perhaps she just has to accept the fact that at Princeton, despite accommodation, she is a C student. Others are.</p>
<p>If she was a recruited athlete, she probably applied Early Decision, so there was no chance to decide about whether to accept the offer of admission. Anyway, if her brother was there and getting accommodations, she would have reasonably expected she’d get them too.</p>
<p>But this is a good reminder for other applicants with learning disabilities: when you visit the school, visit the office of learning disabilities. Find out what will be required for you to get the accommodations you need.</p>
<p>That girl obviously is not stupid. If she was stupid she wouldn’t have been accepted to Princeton, unless she is an athlete, the daughter of rich parents, or a minority, but one still has to wonder where the line should be drawn between lack of intelligence and ADD. If a person can’t quickly process verbal information, quickly commit it to memory or quickly recall it, then that person is not very intelligent.</p>
<p>That’s why I think it’s a waste of time sending these students to college. Obviously she won’t do very well in the real world with this ADD disability, so what’s the point of sending her to college? What’s the goal of spending time and resources on her education? When will the investment pay off? Let her go to a community college, where the workload should be easy enough for her to handle.</p>
<p>Your ignorance of ADD has affected your reasoning.</p>
<p>Processing verbal information quickly has nothing to do with ADD. My ADD son processes & recalls verbal information at a rapid speed, however he cannot formulate written essays at that same speed. If all his tests were oral conversations instead of essay tests he would be done with plenty of time to spare.</p>
<p>In the “real world” many factors come into play for a job. Pleanty of real world careers do not have timed tests.</p>
<p>Many high IQ folks have ADD. </p>
<p>And Community College does not = more time for written tests.</p>
<p>I have no vested interest in this situation; nor do I have enough info to offer an intelligent opinion on the additional accommodations the student wants beyond what she is already given.
However, there are 2 posts here in particular that really grab my attention.
The first, post 10 from Mythmom. I cannot agree with the idea that P accepted her, so now it is P’s obligation to give student any and all accommodations student thinks is necessary to be at her best. I don’t see how anyone can volunteer to join a club, school, employer, military, or any other organization and then say that organization has to play by the new member’s rules. Unless the student outlined what conditions she would/would not accept; and made it clear her enrolling in P was contingent on P agreeing to her terms, then No; P is not obligated now to meet her most recent request for new terms. We have no information here to indicate the student struck such a deal with P. before admission. I am uncomfortable with the idea that a new member should have the right to dictate rules to an establishment the member volunteered to join.
The second post was #28 from momof3. Mom brings up an excellent point that now in the news, this issue become public record. Very public record. Future employers may very well know the student’s name when she is seeking employment. Future employers may find her name, her problems, her lawsuits, etc., and imo are very likely to feel they are better off to avoid getting mixed up with an employee like that.</p>
<p>I met the guy from Ohio that got caned (in Thailand?) for defacing some property. Remember him? Maybe 10 yrs ago, it was big national news, about his actions and if the punishment was just, etc. He told me he couldn’t get hired for a long long time because of the negative publicity. He eventually settled in at a job that did not require him meeting the public.</p>
<p>I’m sorry…so many of these posts are just amazing. </p>
<p>I am not going to comment any more except to say, once again, that accommodations are not discussed with admissions, but with disability offices-once the student is actually going to the school. </p>
<p>The student is either admitted or not admitted, based on the same criteria as everyone else (and yes, accommodations at high school and at SAT’s do not have to be noted). The student is not obligated to investigate accommodations, or reveal the need for accommodations, before accepting the offer of admittance. The student, by law, can assume equal access to the education offered at the college, once admitted, as ong as there is no undue financial or administrative burden, and as long as the college program does not have to be altered.</p>
<p>What this actually means, in real life, is being tested by numerous legal challenges, which will serve to define how the ADA law applies at the college level, over time.</p>
<p>If a student and his or her family wants to avoid having to fight or sue, then they can try to find schools that are good with this kind of thing, in the first place, but they aren’t obligated to do that, it is just a personal choice. This girl may help others have a wider choice of schools in the long run, by fighting.</p>
<p>That’s weird. So your son can communicate his ideas coherently but when it comes to putting them down on paper (multitasking) his brain won’t do the trick?</p>
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<p>That’s true, but most employers care about productivity. If a person needs twice as much time as everyone else in order to complete the same task, then that person is probably not as productive as everyone else. Who is going to want to hire that person?</p>
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<p>And there are also many high IQ folks who never add up to anything.</p>
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<p>But the material is easier and grading standards more lenient, which means that the ADD girl might be able to perform satisfactorily at a community college in spite of her disability.</p>
<p>I am cheering her on vigorously! In support of all students with LD/ADHD/ADD issues. Discrimination against these students is rampant in secondary education and post secondary-collegiate education. They are routinely flunked when they are not stupid at all…just process differently. </p>
<p>I hope this suit is turned into a class action and forces ALL colleges to make SUBSTANTIAL accomodations and provide better counseling for these students who suffer at no fault of their own. </p>
<p>Untreated ADD/ADHD/LD issues lead to job hopping, job failure, alcoholism, divorce, drug addictions and sometimes suicide. </p>
<p>We jump through hoops for the gifted students and “athletes” and treat ADHD/LD/ADD kids like they are worse than vermin. </p>
<p>I have one kid like this and have fought tooth and nail for YEARS for accomodations…and it requires a LOT of work to get even ONE teacher to “get it” on what needs to be done to help these kids succeed. Its exasperating. </p>
<p>Three cheers to this young lady (and congrats to her on being admitted to Princeton!)</p>
<p>I have an LD dyslexic son so I do have a horse in the race lest others think I’m being obdurate and I think very long and very hard about every accomodation and step along the way always keeping in mind the future ramifications of each decision. Too often it is easy to focus on the one class (that the student is struggling with) or the one teacher or the one “desired college” and lose sight of the big picture or how that decision comes into play the next year or the following years. My son is now rapidly approaching the point due to the intense focus and his sheer determination and ability to compensate where he may very well lose his accomodations during the next testing cycle, but isn’t that the most desireable outcome - that he no longer qualifies and needs accomodations? Again perspective in all things is called for in these situations. While the lawsuit may have some merit from a legal perspective, I’m not sure over the long run for this particular person it is the best battle to choose to fight for the long haul.</p>
<p>Well, don’t you think a reasonble person who is concerned about their LD and attending a school that is - to say the least - rigorous would want to check out the level of accomodations available to her?
There is another poster who explained exactly that process and what would be available for his child who is apparently very intelligent but with severe LD. Child attends a top LAC.</p>
<p>^^Absolutely. Clearly that is/was the first “oops” for this student and her parents. Now she’s going “back to the well for more” which is never a position of strength. They played the bet that she would get what the brother got.</p>
<p>My oldest attended Reed college at a time when SAT scores disclosed if accomodations were received. We discussed services before she attended, however the level of work required in college may be more than many students anticipate.</p>
<p>Schools are all over the map as to recognizing the talents of those with different learning styles and finding ways to accommodate them and benefit from their insights.
One young woman from D1’s high school class ( a couple years older actually) successfully pushed to get better support for students at Occidental College ( which I had forgotten about until now-) :o ( I had discouraged younger D from applying)</p>
<p>Many of these kids are extremely intelligent, but have been able to make bad habits work for them through high school- however that same intelligence combined with the bad habits ( waiting till last minute etc) with the amount of material they need to process in college is not enough to get them expected results and they don’t know how to get back on track.</p>
<p>I disagree with withholding the information on applications, because it makes it much more difficult to receive accommodations for SAT/ACT testing if it is not disclosed and it is important to find out what is available.
( it also allows a place for unethical applicants and their drs to ask for accomodations when they are unneeded)</p>
<p>It seems logical to expect that at least similar accommodations to ones her brother received would still be available, if her disability requires that, but it does seem that perhaps he received a few extra benefits from being an athlete ( I know< gasp> )</p>
<p>I haven’t read this entire thread because some of the things being said are so outrageous I simply can’t. I have ADD, dyscalculia, auditory processing deficiencies, and dysgraphia-- the last one being a writing disorder. It does not simply mean that I have bad hand writing as many think, the dysgraphia is secondary to a neuropathy that seriously hinders my ability to perform fine motor tasks and writing is EXTREMELY PAINFUL. I am not capable of writing more than a few sentences by hand. Literally, not capable. Can’t do it. It HURTS until the muscles in my hands and arms seize up and I literally can’t do it. I’ve been allowed a laptop to complete in class writing assignments an exams since junior year of high school. I distinctly remember it being wonderful because it was the first time in my life that I was able to actually use notes to study, because my attempts at notes before were sporadic because of the pain and illegible even to me. And before that I regularly got points off of superior projects and papers for “lack of effort” when I put ten times as much effort in as anybody else. It just wasn’t “neat” enough, which has nothing to do with my academic level or intelligence, SURELY those of you criticizing the intelligence of students with disabilities wouldn’t argue that my handwriting should keep me in kindergarten for life. I accepted failures in art classes and such when it was clear I couldn’t do what I had been taught to do, but in regular classes I am perfectly capable of learning the information-- it’s just proving how well I’ve learned it that is difficult or impossible within the strict constraints of a class. If you note, most LD accommodations are NOT accommodations to help the student think, but to help the student EXECUTE what they have learned. Which is certainly fair, especially if you consider that classes are in fact designed to help the student think and in cases of severe LDs are almost useless to us because we can’t think in the way we are being asked, even if we can run circles around all the other students thinking in a different way (or in nine subjects out of ten.) If we are tested in that one specific way, pretending that all people learn the same way, then our intelligence is wasted-- not nonexistant. </p>
<p>“That’s true, but most employers care about productivity. If a person needs twice as much time as everyone else in order to complete the same task, then that person is probably not as productive as everyone else. Who is going to want to hire that person?”</p>
<p>I function fine in “the real world”, just not within the constraints of a class. I’ve worked a variety of jobs and I’ve always been fine. Unless I am going for a job where I am required to sit exams or write five page essays by hand day in and day out, I’ll be just fine.</p>
<p>“While the lawsuit may have some merit from a legal perspective, I’m not sure over the long run for this particular person it is the best battle to choose to fight for the long haul.”</p>
<p>I agree. Even if she’s wins, it’s going to follow her around forever. I can’t believe that any additional accommodations she wins will be of more use to her down the road than a stigma-free reputation would have been. Employers run screaming from people who sue. Prospective plaintiffs need to think long and hard about the costs and benefits of suing, especially against a high-profile defendant like Princeton that is certain to get national coverage. And I say this as a former plaintiff’s-side civil rights attorney.</p>
<p>I have a D who is a high IQ dyslexic. I’ve posted before that she chose to disclose her dyslexia/dysgraphia in the application process because she felt she did not want to go somewhere where they didn’t want her the way she is. She’d had some challenging accomodation fights in high school which were nothing she ever wanted to have to relive. She is actually allowed time and a half but never uses it. She is a fantastic writer but a horrible speller and cannot punctuate. (Do people really understand the difference? How little being able to spell, capitalize and punctuate have to do with wrting a cogent essay original and thought provoking piece of rhetoric?) In general, if you look at what most accomodations do, they moderate for extremely low level intelligence like spelling bee stuff. It’s not really about “thinking” at all. </p>
<p>D was accepted all over the place at really great schools many others would not be accepted to and she made her choice based on what SHE thought they had to offer her, including merit scholarships, openness to her need for technology to be able to write well, and a general culture of acceptance that people demonstrate what they have learned differently.</p>
<p>Anyone who is worried about how these kids will fare out in the real world might want to google successful people with LD…You’d be might suprised by the names on those lists. </p>
<p>However, I really strongly believe that disclosing to the school on the way in is the way to go, just because college is enough of a transition without having to endlessly explain yourself to people whose understanding is clearly paleolithic in terms of the fact that almost every important discovery or innovation made in the modern world has been made by someone who would be classifed as LD by our current educational system. I suppose Einstein would have never been able to attend Princeton, but it would have been fine for him to teach there.</p>