Student Sues Princeton Over Learning Disability Accommodations

Parents Forum
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<p>Yes, there are always cut-offs. And just like colleges may use an SAT cut-off, diagnosticians typically use a cut-off in testing scores. That may seem unfair but it is the way life works.</p>

<p>But there is also some misunderstanding in some of the posts on this thread about extended time removing all time pressure. Extended time is not unlimited time and extended time is based on the severity of the disability. In our school system, kids who read 2-3x times slower than normal get no extended time. If their parents push and push, they may get time and a half. Do they still feel time pressure? Yes! </p>

<p>And accommodations are not meant to make an A or even a B within grasp. It is merely meant to allow the student to access the material. </p>

<p>I do agree with you that she is in the difficult position of having to fail (or come close). Princeton seems to have given accommodations for just some of her disabilities. None of the accommodations listed address the language disorder. If P argues that she does not meet the cut-off for a disability, it will be a big blow to her because it is likely that her disability still affects her. (In my experience, it is harder to qualify for a language disability as an adult-- especially if the student received therapy.) Yet it’s an easy disability to accommodate if the school is willing because it doesn’t necessarily affect her reading. She could need extended time… but she could also have benefitted greatly from a copy of class notes. I’m not sure her accommodations are in line with her disabilities but I also think this lawsuit will be hard to win-- not because she doesn’t need those things, but because the truth is we often don’t require private institutions to provide accommodations. (And public educational institutions are given much discretion. The lawsuits in my school system are a joke. Even when the school is found to be in violation of ADA, the judges often give the school much discretion based on its promise to behave from there on out. And the cases with which I’m familiar are at the level of compulsory education where, presumably, the state has much more of an interest in assuring compliance with ADA and laws governing IEPs.)</p>

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<p>TwistedX:</p>

<p>I have nothing but respect for people who have to battle through genuine disabilities to succeed. However, I know from experience that some people also use the ADA and related statutes to game the system. One classic case was a person who crashed and burned a few years ago after massive accommodations when she refused to share the valetdictorian award for her class with a nondisabled student. These people only make it more difficult for people like you.</p>

<p>Now, I’m not in the head of the plaintiff in the Princeton lawsuit, but I think it is particularly interesting that she is claiming to have “developmental coordination disorder,” which (among other things) is characterized by</p>

<p>“difficulty performing tasks that require motor skills or eye-hand coordination, such as catching a ball”</p>

<p>[Developmental</a> coordination disorder - children, define, causes, effects, therapy, people, used, skills, Definition, Description, Causes and symptoms, Demographics, Diagnosis, Treatments, Prognosis, Prevention](<a href=“http://www.minddisorders.com/Del-Fi/Developmental-coordination-disorder.html]Developmental”>Developmental coordination disorder - children, define, causes, effects, therapy, people, used, skills)</p>

<p>Sounds like the profile of a DI soccer player to me!</p>

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<p>I just want to comment that with her disabililities, and despite her intelligence, this student would probably run into problems at most colleges, and have similar problems. I don’t think that leaving Princeton for another program is a good solution- as many have suggested. And the whole point of the legal action is that she should not have to, if accommodations are adequate for her to achieve what she should be able to achieve.</p>

<p>I do not know the details, and there is no way to access more information. So I can’t really speak to the merits of the particular case, only to the theoretical justice of such a pursuit.</p>

<p>I also strongly disagree with the idea that people should never sue an institution with which they have an ongoing relationship. Many civil rights cases have involved such a relationship.</p>

<p>In a smaller institution, such as a small private elementary school, it is true that things can become so uncomfortable that the child ends up leaving. We have seen this with various legal issues involving diabetes care for kids on insulin, in schools. But in a larger institution like Princeton, where the fight is on an administrative level, the effect of suing could be much less, on her daily life. And some employers would welcome someone who advocates for themselves and others in this way.</p>

<p>Those who had the courage to pursue legal action have had very positive effects (even life-saving effects, in the diabetes case that I mentioned) for others. This young woman’s motives are not described in the article. I cannot say whether this girl is focused on her own grades, or on broad change in academic accommodations for all who need them. If her suit is justified (and, again, I am not able to judge this), then it does not even matter what her personal motives are: her suit will be useful in clarifying this issue at the college level, and that clarification is badly needed as the generation that has benefited from the ADA moves on to college and grad school.</p>

<p>It can seem that some people who are posting here do not understand the difference between intelligence level and disability. People can be exceptional in different ways, and many are both gifted in IQ and disabled in some way, as with processing. Interestingly, some of these students miss out on gifted programs due to their disability, and also miss out on special education services because their IQ allows them to compensate and do too well, or they do well in areas in which they are not disabled. I hoped that the example I posted about Samantha would help some people grasp the difference, and see how accommodations are not a “leg up” or a means to win a competition, but a means to access education in a way that their intelligence can grab onto. It really is about being able to learn.</p>

<p>The idea of everyone getting extra time is appealing to me. However, it is probably exactly that slippery slope that elite colleges want to avoid. Allowing everyone to have extra time would compromise the standards of the program, which is one of the two things the ADA says a college should not have to do (the other being suffering administrative/financial burdens). Granting extra time to any student makes a chink in the wall of their standards, and it is not surprising that a college would resist. But the reality is that, as these things are clarified in the law, I think that certain standardized protocols will evolve, that will both protect individual students and protect the colleges’ programs.</p>

<p>I recently read a book about a paraplegic at Harvard. Her accommodations were quite effective (including a dorm room for her mother!). Somewhere in the book, there was a comment that accommodating a person with paraplegia was easier than someone with invisible disabilities, and the need is easier to understand. She got kudos for her bravery in finishing at Harvard, and had a tv movie about her story, while those with invisible disabilities are sometimes criticized and judged. Their stories are just harder to grasp and empathize with.</p>

<p>Again, none of us really has that much information about this case, so the length of this thread is quite amazing!</p>

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<p>“It really is about being able to learn.”</p>

<p>Agreed. But the lawsuit doesn’t address learning … only testing. Unfortunately this lawsuit will do little to clarify “where we draw the line.” In three years will there be a thread entitled “Princeton student sues Phi Beta Kappa over rejection?”</p>

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<p>That is what I have been wondering about from the break. </p>

<p>If you go to the first post on this thread and read what the lawyer claims is the full kit and caboodle of her client’s L.D.'s, then one cannot help but wonder how is has been getting along with her studying this whole time. </p>

<p>I wish this young lady no ill will. Personally, I think that someone dropped the ball somewhere from recruitment season time back when she was in high school to the here and now.</p>

<p>But, holy heck. If it takes you 100% longer time than your peers to take a test. Then it would take you how much longer to study for the test?</p>

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<p>“If it takes you 100% longer time than your peers to take a test. Then it would take you how much longer to study for the test?”</p>

<p>This is a common misconception about extra time.</p>

<p>So, in simplistic terms: 1. Studying = input
2. Testing = output.</p>

<p>I cannot speak to this particular young woman’s case, as it sounds as if she has a lot of different issues going on. However, in terms of certain LD cases, some kids, for example, who are dysgraphic have issues with writing things on paper so that someone else can get a clear picture of what it is they have learned. The only reason for tests is to assess whether or not the student has learned the information being taught in the class.</p>

<p>Some kids, my D, for example, has to study much less than most people due to the fact that in learning to compensate for her dyslexia over the years, she memorizes everything as she reads. (she has a prodigious recall to the point where she has actually been studied for this by memory professors)…So, while it may take her longer, initially to read something, the time necessary for mastery is much lower for her than for other students. She is also a national debate champion for the reason that her material is in her head no matter what.</p>

<p>On an essay test, she may be given alternative formats, ie, use of a computer, or oral testing, if the professor prefers (this is actually much harder, which is why it is required for PhD’s.)</p>

<p>So, it is important not to confuse input issues with output/testing issues. They just aren’t the same, at all.</p>

<p>as for the particular woman who is suing Princeton? I think Princeton, because they recruited her and because she disclosed her disabilities during the admissions process, really needs to address WHY they recruited her to begin with and whether or not they had any intention of accomodating her learning differences to begin with.</p>

<p>Out of curiousity, does anyone else wonder what the implications of a situation like this are for kids who choose not to disclose thier situation during admissions? My D did disclose, to avoid this exact situation. What do people think about the fact that princeton had full awareness of her testing before admissions?</p>

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<p>She does and they apparently would affect her quite severely in both a classroom and testing environment. If you look up the whole kit and caboodle of her situation (using a proper academic resource) you will see that she must have to take a great deal of time throughout her school day to accomplish what most folks do in less time. There just would not be any other way around it with regards to her if what her legal counsel is claiming winds up being true all across the board 100% of the way </p>

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<p>I think that in her particular case they are very much on the same level, if you will. I am sorry if the fact that I remained on topic led you to believe I was a confused lady or something.</p>

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<p>No, it was more the general statement that if someone needs extra time for output measurement of learning then they must need much longer for the input of actual information, which just isnt the case. At all. </p>

<p>However, in terms of this young woman, given that she did, in fact, disclose her learning differences during the recruitment phase of her admission process, I think the extraneous issues are not only on the part of the women in question, but also the university and thier process, as well. Had she hidden her LD, I would have a different sense of this, completely. However, she did not.</p>

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<p>As I have said earlier, P offers a certain product. Student wanted the product. I think disclosing the ld was the right thing to do, but unless P said they’d do anything student wanted to accommodate student, then student had obligation to find out more before signing up. I don’t see that saying you have a problem- but then getting no real response- that one should assume they are going to automatically accommodate whatever the student wants. In fact, I see it as just the opposite. If a school chooses not to comment after one has mentioned problems, I’d be concerned as a prospective student why they were ignoring my problem. A salesman can sell a Lincoln Navigator to a very short buyer. He may know he’s short. He may see he’s short. But if he can’t reach the pedals in that big auto, must the salesman adapt the auto for him? Or should the buyer have been more careful in his selection? Merely stating you have a problem does not necessarily obligate the other to do anything one wants to address the problem.</p>

<p>But to some, I say let’s not fly off the handle. I think it’s true she may not belong at P. “May not” being the key. I cannot say it’s too much nor can I say I know it’s a good match. Ave incoming frosh have 3.85 unweighted gpa. That is extremely demanding for the typical student. It must be really tough on an atypical student.
This young woman has the legal right to sue- I don’t remember anyone voicing the opposite. I don’t remember anyone saying it was her first move. But, suing should have been her last resort, after all other options failed. She did not try all other options first. But many have commented that it may be ill-advised, right now. I believe because of this, she chooses to put herself in a tough position. Now she’s in the position of proving P was not reasonable. Any defense attorney is going to ask her how and why the accommodations that P offered failed. Her response will be that she didn’t try them. Then the attorney will say- Oh really? And you think P was unreasonable when they offered these? </p>

<p>To assume P is 100% in the right is premature at this moment. To assume this young woman has all the illnesses she claims, to the degree she claims is also premature at this moment. But clearly she is in a tough position, and some of it is her own doing. So far we only know of diagnoses from 6 yrs ago; and some of those appear to be in conflict with her athletic prowess. Of course if more info comes out, opinions may change.</p>

<p>Some here have to be clearer on the distinction between what may prove to be her genuine disabilities and her choices of how to handle them.</p>

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<p>They cannot discriminate with admissions. That is well-defined, legally. (In fact, I just read that admissions may have to go an extra step in evaluating a student who has self-disclosed, using non-traditional ways of evaluating that student). However, the amount of accommodations required at the college level is not well-defined as yet.</p>

<p>It really shouldn’t matter at all whether a student discloses a disability during the application process.</p>

<p>However, intuitively, many of us feel that since our child did disclose, perhaps that constitutes a sort of contract, in which the college promised to accept the kid as they are and provide what they need for success in terms of reasonable accommodations.</p>

<p>Although I have felt this way myself, it is probably not really valid. The admissions decision is based on accomplishments and character, or whatever the criteria are for that school- just as that decision is made for anyone else. Admissions does not worry about what accommodations were provided in the past, for instance, to make those accomplishments possible. (Although some applicants do disclose in order to show how they have “overcome obstacles”, a frequent stated criteria at top schools)</p>

<p>Once on campus, it then becomes the job of the disabilities office to figure out what level of accommodations are needed and justified.</p>

<p>The level of accommodations required by law at the post-secondary level is much lower than the level required at high school, because high school is considered compulsory and college is not (which should, in itself, perhaps be changed). This can really take students and families by surprise. If anyone calls the Federal Dept. of Education’s Office of Civil Rights, they will tell you this. The ADA does not require a college to lower its academic standards, alter its programs, or to suffer administrative or financial burdens as a result of accommodating a student. That is the language.</p>

<p>What this means in reality is not established as yet, because, as mentioned before, more and more students are being accommodated in high school, and expect to be accommodated at college. (Also, there is a large increase in diagnosed learning disorders, many of them based on a discrepancy between inherent ability and performance, which is the crux of the matter here). </p>

<p>I think that the philosophy of inclusion, dating back to the late 60’s, is a factor here too. Students are used to succeeding in the mainstream, thanks to accommodations, rather than being segregated based on disability. They expect a similar philosophy on the college campus, and are often stunned by the difference between high school and college.</p>

<p>Over the next 20 years or so, legal battles may very well transform college cultures regarding accommodations for disabilities. However, there is also the issue of academic freedom, the right to teach in a way that the professor wants to teach, and many other rights that the colleges can plead. I agree that there needs to be a balance, but one that is informed rather than one that is prejudiced.</p>

<p>These things will be worked out over time, and will not be black and white in their solutions. Right now, our family would just like our daughter to be able to graduate in more than 8 semesters, because she needs medical leaves every once in awhile. Even something as simple as that, which is, apparently, included in the current interpretation of the ADA, can be hard to negotiate with some colleges.</p>

<p>For anyone who has put this much time into this thread, here is a really good article that I found. It really gets into good detail if you read the whole thing:</p>

<p>[LD</a> OnLine :: College Students and Disability Law](<a href=“http://www.ldonline.org/article/6082]LD”>College Students and Disability Law | LD OnLine)</p>

<p>ps. this was written before some of the above posts…just want to add that one option that we have used is to use training workshops offered by OCR at the school; rather than suing, OCR will help negotiate a solution and show an institution how to implement the principle of access (for us, this was at middle school, where the standard of required accommodation is high)</p>

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<p>Oh, I am sorry. I guess I should have made reference to the young lady in question when I stated that. Sorry about that. I am sorry if you inferred that I was making a blanket presumption against every L.D lady or gentleman or something, because that was not my intent at all and I actually feel bad that you thought so. </p>

<p>I really do think that in her particular situation she would be different than your young adult child, for example. It is very interesting to read up on her diagnoses, actually. But that would not make anyone on a messageboard know what it is like to walk in her shoes at all. I can assume, based on what I looked up and read through, a thing or two. Just like you can assume a thing or two also perhaps based on what you have learned with regards to your young adult child. That is what is neat about freely learning of things sometimes. Neither one of us are hating on the lady and yet neither one of us at all know what it is like to walk in her shoes. We can only assume and perhaps empathize.</p>

<p>I see what I did now and it is to late for me to edit it…</p>

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<p>That is my mistake. Sorry about that. I guess I should have written that out differently or something? Sorry. Please try and not think that I was making some kind of blanket presumption against all L.D. ladies and gentlemen because that was by no means my intent at all.</p>

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<p>Mildred-- I’m honestly not upset at all.</p>

<p>I really think it is a common misconception about what these accomodations do. Looked at in a certain light, they actually accomodate professors as well as students, since, really, all a professor should be doing with a test is making sure the students are understanding the material. Grades and testing have gotten misconstrued to be the point of education, when, in fact, they are simply tools to assist in making sure that the education is actually working and the students are actually learning the material.</p>

<p>But, no, I’m not even slightly upset. Truly. :)</p>

<p>I do wonder, however, what people think about the implications regarding the fact that the young woman did, in fact, disclose her LD during the process. I mean, some kids do not disclose and then show up asking for and expecting accomodations. I think it is all an interesting situation. Would a student who did not disclose be able to file a lawsuit? If not, then why is it illegal to require this disclosure? Really interesting.</p>

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<p>In case anyone forgot, here’s a part of what her attorney claimed: “The conditions, according to the complaint, hinder her ability to focus, process information and communicate in writing.”</p>

<p>How can anyone read that and NOT believe her study time would be slower?
Staying on the topic of this young woman, her diabilities and troubles as reported to us seems to have caused confusion and hurt feelings for some here. Even if someone were to boldly say “She’s a liar!” referring to the plaintiff, that doesn’t mean Ld’s don’t exist or that no one should ever get extra accomodations. Of course I use that just as an example.</p>

<p>I suspect it is illegal to require such a disclosure because if the school had such info, they might not select students fairly; or at least the perception might be that they did not select fairly. And, as Compmom said, just because a student may disclose they have a problem, that does not make a contract to accommodate everying for that student.</p>

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<p>I think it is interesting that the ADA does not require accomodations to the same degree that high schools do, however, there are certain requirements which come into play if the school recieves federal money, as most major research universities do. A school is free to decline research grants, just as a student is free to choose a different university or college based on what they want or need.</p>

<p>I think it really is important for parents of kids with learning differences to be very open with thier kids and to assist them in learning about thier strengths and weaknesses during the entire educational process, as well. Kids really ought to go into a college environment with thier eyes wide open as to what it is that they will face. But, these are not legal obligations, just obligations as parents. </p>

<p>Look, I have one who as dyslexia and one who is not LD in any way. But both of them have strengths and weakness they need to work with. It really isn’t that different. FWIW</p>

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<p>Well, I personally wonder why it is illegal to require disclosure if it is not illegal to not accomodate. I just wonder what the implications are for kids who do not understand a lot of this stuff.</p>

<p>It is reasonable for a student who was actually recruited to a school to assume, given the full disclosure, that the school intended to make it possible for her to succeed? I think, yes. But, I could be wrong. schools make big mistakes around this.</p>

<p>D was heavily recruited by one school who offered her a full academic scholarship, but when she went to visit they went on and on about the writing across the curriculum and the part about having to write papers in Bio and even Gym. She laughed on the way out of the info. sessions. “What part about my being dysgraphic do you think they didn’t get? when I was applying? Why on earth would they offer me a scholarship?” She was baffled.</p>

<p>So, the kids had better really understand that the schools are kind of lost, too.</p>

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<p>Yes, the schools are kind of lost, and some are very lost. However, that does not excuse the student from being discriminating about college choices, including if that student is a recruited or recruitable athlete. Every U assumes a certain awareness & knowledge on the part of the student, regarding both the student’s LD limitations (& rights) and the reality of that particular college environment. And the U assumes a great deal of responsibility on the part of the student. The most advocacy-oriented counselor I know counsels her clients accurately that assumptions on a college campus are very different from those in K-12 environments. The latter settings may hope that students are somewhat independent in their knowledge and self-advocacy, but much of the time the reality is that the parents do need to step in or find themselves unwittingly stepping in to advocate for their child. </p>

<p>College is radically different. Any student who is ready to be a freshman on any college campus, and has a diagnosed LD or more, and expects to be accommodated, had better be ready to be an adult about that. The cardinal rule of all LD students on campus, is Be Your Own Advocate. You must assert yourself and stop playing the victim or expecting others to rescue you. That includes, and especially if, the college itself is “lost.”</p>

<p>More than half of my students have a wide variety of LD’s. Some of these varieties have not yet been officially diagnosed, yet they are apparent to those of us who work with them. Some LD’s are more debilitating than others. Some are virtually limited to test-taking situations, but those are actually in the minority. Most students with any significant level or breadth of LD are affected outside of test situations as well – i.e., the preparation for those tests, the writing of those papers, all of which increase the time factor. And guess which commodity is most precious to a serious athlete? Time. That’s why some of us say that a reach U may be incompatible with the combination of serious athlete + considerable LD. While I maintain that Princeton should have weighed the consequences of the offer (and done its research first), I find the student equally culpable if she used poor judgment in assessing her own risks.</p>

<p>What I’m saying is, college choice itself is part of self-advocacy.</p>

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<p>Blog worth reading:</p>

<p>[Bad</a> Cripple: Higher Education and Disability Based Discrimination](<a href=“http://badcripple.blogspot.com/2009/02/higher-education-and-disability-based.html]Bad”>Bad Cripple: Higher Education and Disability Based Discrimination)</p>

<p>My belief: I’m sorry to say that many people posting here “don’t seem to get it” - seems as if fear and/or competition is driving your thought processes. </p>

<p>I homeschooled my son for a couple of years until we could move to a town where its citizens and school district saw his disabilities as “diversity” instead of “seeking unfair advantages” and “stealing attention away from typical students”. Homeschooling and then moving were 2 of the best decisions we ever made. Hopefully, the Princeton student won’t have to transfer.</p>

<p>I hope that with this lawsuit, there will be a change as to when colleges must notify students with disabilities as to whether or not the accommodations they seek will be granted. Most colleges don’t let you submit disability documents until after you’ve been accepted. The ED process complicates things even more. I feel that you should be allowed to back out of ED for financial reasons, as well as lack of accommodations requested.</p>

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<p>“It really is about being able to learn.”</p>

<p>^annie - Good for you, and good for your S. I applaud you both for finding an environment that works for you. (And I’m not surprised it took a lot of effort on your part.) That said, your success finding an environment in which your S can learn is in no way comparable to the Princeton student filing a lawsuit against what is arguably the highest-regarded university in America. Also, I happen to agree that ED should not be binding if requested accommodations are refused. But that doesn’t apply to the Princeton student.</p>

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<p>^
Hi NewHope33</p>

<p>We didn’t find an environment in which our S could learn. We found an environment that was open-minded, non-competitive and nondiscriminatory. He could’ve learned in the previous town. The main problem was the attitude of many of the parents and the school district.</p>

<p>The Princeton student is obviously very bright (even if she is an athlete). I’m not saying that Princeton has to accommodate her. The courts will figure this out because the 2 parties were unable to reach an agreement. </p>

<p>Even though Princeton doesn’t have ED, I’m assuming that in the Fall of her Sr. year of HS, this student-athlete received a Likely Letter and made verbal agreements with Princeton about attending. That’s the way it works with Ivies and top LAC’s with recruiting if there’s no ED. In essence, Princeton agrees that she’ll be accepted and student-athlete agrees to attend.</p>

<p>Again, I have to say:
I hope that with this lawsuit, there will be a change as to when colleges must notify students with disabilities as to whether or not the accommodations they seek will be granted (no matter when they apply: EA, ED, RD). Most colleges don’t let you submit disability documents until after you’ve been accepted.</p>

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<p>It would be great if that came of this, as a start, though I don’t know how that will work. I didn’t know what accommodations I needed until I got here, what you need changes as the classes and curriculum change, sometimes disabilities counselors at schools have ideas that your doctor didnt that might help you better, and sometimes you \ don’t realize something isn’t going to work until you get there and do it–and apparently as we’ve discovered through my experience different departments can have different standards, and there’s no way to predict what departments you may end up having to work with-- I am presently taking a class in the russian and eastern european studies dept, never saw that one coming. I tried to take notes in Spanish on my laptop but it wasn’t going very well because of the special characters and all, and my professor suggested I see if I could get authorized for a notetaker and I did, that little adjustment made a big difference for me. Requiring colleges to say ahead of time would require them to standardize accommodation MUCH, MUCH more, and I don’t know if that can really be done, or if it should be. It makes perfect sense that different departments would offer different accommodations as they pertain to their subjects taught.</p>

<p>I would also not be willing to submit my disability documentation to a school I had not yet been accepted to. That is a private medical document, I wouldn’t really want 20 copies of it floating around needlessly, nor would I trust them to destroy it properly if they decide to reject me. And I would be worried it would be used against me in admissions. I disclosed the name of my disability on my applications but my actual test results are a different matter entirely.</p>