Student Sues Princeton Over Learning Disability Accommodations

Parents Forum
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<p>^TwistedxKiss</p>

<p>If you go to college with well-documented disabilities, I believe that you should be able to request certain accommodations that you will most likely need from the start. I agree that it might have to be tweaked along the way depending on the class/professor. The Princeton student had extended time in HS and on SAT/ACT. It seems as if she made the request for extended time before freshman year started knowing it’s an accommodation she always or usually needs.</p>

<p>As an example: my S seems to have very similar disabilities to the Princeton student. His only current accommodation needed is extended testing time in core subjects (usually only uses it on very long tests, midterms and finals). He tries not to use it. He no longer needs other accommodations that were necessary in previous yrs. so those former accommodations are no longer requested. His hope and expectation is that he will be granted 50% more time at college. It would be nice to know before he commits to a college. </p>

<p>Another example: A blind student should be able to know if he/she will be accommodated with books on tape, a reader or other accommodations typically used/requested by him/her for that particular disability. He should be able to request that early on in application process to college and find out if it will be a problem before he/she’s committed to the college.</p>

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<p>No! I hate the idea of “forced disclosure” (even though my physical disability is “forced disclosure” in and of itself). I can choose or choose not to use accomodations that I’m eligible for–most of the time, I don’t use them–so why should I have a college (employer) decide whether or not they “think” they accommodate me based on what accomodations they “think” I may need? Hello, (more) discrimination.</p>

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<p>I still think you could argue that any student should be able to accept an offer of admission from a college based on other “normal” criteria, just like anyone else, and that the matter of accommodations should be dealt with after that acceptance of the offer. Otherwise, if the student makes a decision based on accommodations offered, the disability is limiting equal choice and access to education.</p>

<p>The administrative culture on campuses needs to change, and will over time I believe. Shawbridge’s point about the disability offices as “guardians of the curriculum” is very important, and one would hope this function would change to facilitating access to the curriculum. In other words, helping rather than limiting students.</p>

<p>In the meantime, some will choose to go somewhere without this kind of struggle (a valid choice, given that most kid with disabilities and their families have often already been through the mill), and others will insist on going where they want for other reasons (location, curriculum, teachers, vibe etc), and will fight for their rights. It will be interesting to see what happens with all this in the coming decades.</p>

<p>Okay, I am promising myself not to look at this again!</p>

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<p>^psych_</p>

<p>I’m not talking about forced disclosure. I’m talking about if/when you choose to self-identify, the college should give you an answer as to whether or not they will accommodate your request(s). </p>

<p>You cannot submit documents to the disability office of most colleges until after you’ve been accepted. Many students would choose to go elsewhere, or possibly try to negotiate, if they knew the college wouldn’t want to offer the accommodation(s) requested.</p>

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<p>In case you’re looking again:</p>

<p>:-) LOL</p>

<p>I’ll try not to look too!</p>

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<p>But it’s not “normal criteria” if a student finished high school with accomodations in any area including standardized tests such as ACT/SAT. That is a differentiator. Whether or not someone self discloses prior to acceptance or after acceptance is up to the individual applying since it is not “required” by admissions. The student who needs something extra or something different for whatever reason is not “the same” as the majority of students who don’t need anything additional from the college. But, I do really believe that if one does disclose then the colleges should also communicate how they can accomodate (or not accomodate) prior to the student enrolling. It seems disingenuous to have a policy of “you don’t have to tell us” but by the same token “we’re not going to tell you what we’ll do if you do tell us” That seems odd.</p>

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<p>Referring to the subject of this thread, we have no indication at this time that the student did anything to make certain accommmodations would be provided that she considered necessary. We know she informed them of the Ld’s diagnosed 6 yrs ago. It may be that more relevant info will come out later.
Annieroses tells us a blind student should know a response to their request for accommodations before they commit to college. Does Annie think this particular student is entitled to less? I don’t think so. She chose to tell them in advance but we have no evidence the student requested accommodations contingent upon her enrolling; or that she specified what conditions she considered acceptable. I think she should have requested accommodations and got an answer before she committed. There is no evidence yet the student requested/demanded such an answer. If she guessed <em>everything will be ok</em> she may have guessed wrong, and if so, that’s her error for guessing. I just don’t like the idea that she went into this with eyes closed, but now wants <em>the government</em> to look out for her. Recruiting is all about the school offering what it can do for the student if the student attends. If it is true that this student was highly recruited, then one of the students’ questions should have been “I have multiple Ld’s. Can you assure me I’ll get all the accom. I need?” I realize one can be skeptical of the answer if she had asked. But we have no indication she asked for assurances. </p>

<p>While Annie may consider me in the group that doesn’t get it, let me assure her I am not afraid of the student in question. My concerns based on info so far are:
Evidence so far indicates she assumed the accommodations rather than trying to verify them before enrolling
A 6 yr old diagnosis of LD’s
Chose to try to balance time of D1 athletics with demanding workload of a top 5 U;
while knowing she takes extra time to study, even more than the typical student
one or more of her Ld’s seem to be at odds with a skilled athlete
and lastly, that she chose to decline accommodations offered her and instead is choosing to sue P for being unreasonable.
I understand accommodations offered may not have been enough; but wouldn’t a reasonable person have tried them to see before assuming they would not be enough? Even if only to bolster a legal case later?</p>

<p>Annie gave a couple of wonderful examples of how she has helped her S with the best fit. Although I’m sorry she didn’t choose an environment where her son could learn(post 399). But that was her families’ choice. I’m ok with that.
TwistedX tells us he’d prefer not to disclose his Ld’ in advance. I’m ok with that.
Those are interesting points of view, but do nothing to comment about the young woman suing P. and cannot be used as arguments with those who do not agree with the actions of the woman at P.</p>

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<p>A bit off-topic, but these are the types of statements/scenarios that lead some of us who are not so familiar with LDs to question or to be confused about the legitimacy of requesting accommodations.</p>

<p>If a person has an LD requiring accommodations, don’t they by definition need to use those accommodations in order to successfully perform the task at hand? If they can perform the task without the accommodations, then do they even have an LD? Sorry, but this is very confusing to me.</p>

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Poetgrl, the term “dysgraphia” is used in confusing ways – sometimes it is used to refer to a person who has difficulty with writing composition, and sometimes it just refers to a person who has problems with handwriting. Both my son and I are “dysgraphic” in the latter sense— my son in fact decided not to apply to a particular college (Brown) because at the time they required the essay to be handwritten. Between the dysgraphia (handwriting) and dyslexia (spelling) – my son really has a hard time without a computer and spell-checker – but with those tools in hand he is fine. In fact he chose a college with a writing-across-the-curriculum approach, and he also has employment that requires a lot of writing. (I think the dysgraphia is hereditary – my dad always told me that he moved to Texas because he could type the bar exam there, whereas he would not have been allowed to type in his home state of New York … and he assumed that there was no way he could have passed the exam if someone had to decipher his handwriting). </p>

<p>Anyway – you can tell your daughter that’s the part of “dysgraphic” her recruiters didn’t understand. </p>

<p>In general. these labels (dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyscalculia, etc.) do not tell much about the level of functioning of a teenager or young adult. Individuals have a variety of different symptoms to support their label, and they have compensated or overcome their barriers in a variety of different ways. That’s why you can’t assume that disclosure itself obligates the accepting school to make certain accommodation – the person who wants or needs accommodations has to be specific about what they are asking for.</p>

<p>I’d note that if a college “assumed” based on a disclosed disability that the student would not be a good fit or would not be able to do the work, that in itself would be discrimination.</p>

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<p>Bay, it much depends on the LD. I can only comment on dyslexia, but my son would “suffer” in a situation that requires massive reading and writing in a short amount of time. The amount of accomodations has decreased from age 6 to 16 because he learned to read (a tad less well than the average American) and learned how to write (sort of). He would not need accomodations in a class where he could keep up with the reading and keep up with the writing. For him it will always be a teacher by teacher, class by class situation I suspect. Also from reading here I’ve discovered that like my son, most high functioning, single LD people tend to gravitate toward their strengths and avoid their weakness which might play into the need or non-need of accomodations. If there is a required core curriculum or required class as in the Twisted case then you “bump” into your limitations and would seek help/accomodations.</p>

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<p>For me, it’s a physical disability, which is, um, very, very real (and very obvious). For example, I qualify for a scribe to scribe my answers from test to scantron–most of the time I just writing my answers on the test with the professor’s permission. I’ll use extra time if it’s a hand writing-heavy subject (math, ironically) or a test involving a full essay, but if it’s just a couple of short answers of a paragraph or so, I generally just write it out and finish last.</p>

<p>Why? My school’s disability office is HORRIBLE when it comes to students who need to use computers to type exam answers, and dealing with them is often more of a hassle than dealing with my slow, affected handwriting.</p>

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<p>Post 408:
Some students (many, actually) choose to try to cope without accommodations for various personal reasons – the most frequent reason given being the hassle of obtaining such accommodations. Others have learned to compensate, albeit clumsily often, but since they’ve developed a serpentine “method,” it’s what they’re used to & in some cases it throws them off to revert to what may feel like something even more complicated in comparison.</p>

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<p>"A bit off-topic, but these are the types of statements/scenarios that lead some of us who are not so familiar with LDs to question or to be confused about the legitimacy of requesting accommodations.</p>

<p>If a person has an LD requiring accommodations, don’t they by definition need to use those accommodations in order to successfully perform the task at hand? If they can perform the task without the accommodations, then do they even have an LD? Sorry, but this is very confusing to me."</p>

<p>I can see why that is confusing. I think it is because different people are all affected differently, even by the same disabilities. There is no dictionary that will tell you, “oh, you have dyscalculia? Okay, you need this, that, and the other thing. End of story.” As a dyscalculic, for example, at some schools I may be offered a formula card for math tests-- but whether or not I need that is borderline, even if I’d wanted it I could never have proved I needed it to the disabilities office, so I’ve never had that accommodation. I’ve never been able to add an accommodation without showing evidence that I needed it first. On the other hand, it is incredibly obvious that there are certain types of math I cannot do without extra time (solving systems of equations with matrices by hand SUCKED even though I was AWESOME at it because if I made one teeny mistake I had to start the giant process over and it took forever), however other things I can do okay and I finish the test like anybody else and turn it in. Even within the strict confines of what constitutes what disabilities and what doesn’t, there aren’t cookie cutter LD students and as such there is variability in what accommodations are necessary for different students. At least in my experience, accommodations have been very conservative and I have never had anything I couldn’t prove I needed available to me.</p>

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<p>Our process of highly selective college choice for a student that needed accomodations was to wait until after admission, then call the disability services director at each possibility to find out what kind of documentation would be required and which accomodations would be routine for a student with the LDs that our student has. (We also followed up with an email to make sure we had understood correctly.) The responses varied greatly from one college to another. I think some of this was due to regional variations in practices, some of it reflected different educational philosophies, attitudes toward diversity in learning styles, flexibility of curriculum, availability of assistive technology, prior experiences with LD students, funding, size and expertise of LD support staff, and so on. We went through this research on seven top-15 colleges and universities. It became pretty clear that the LD “culture” as well as the classroom experience at a couple of choices was much better than the others. For example, at one top 10 University, the documentation required was probably illegal, and because we could not provide it, accomodations would likely not be granted, nor services provided…at another, time accomodations were no issue, but assistive technology was not available, and at yet another, the accomodations were not an issue, staffing was excellent, the expertise was excellent, and the technology was available. While their answers were sometimes disappointing, we found the disability service directors to be quite forthcoming about the options at their institutions. What we learned greatly influenced the final choice, and made our student decide to reject what had been the top choice rather than try to change its institutional culture. Transitioning to college is hard enough for LD kids, without deliberately choosing a place where you know, going in, that it will take a battle to get necessary accomodations. </p>

<p>I understand that recruited athletes have to commit on an earlier timetable, but the research process described above could happen in the junior year of high school. Honestly, I wish we’d done it before applying–I could have saved some application costs.</p>

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<p>Exactly what I have been saying. :)</p>

<p>Some colleges are more LD-friendly (and knowledgeable) than others, just as some K-12 schools are.</p>

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<p>Poor Princeton Admission. First, they rejected a student who was too good at taking test (with perfect SAT scores) and the student sued. And now they apparently admitted someone who has problem taking a test and she sued too.</p>

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<p>Mildred-- please do not sent me any more PM’s relating to my posts. I do not wish to communicate with you privately. thank you.</p>

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<p>Forgive my ignorance here. My H can’t spell worth a darn (seriously - he misspells extremely common words, like broccoli on the shopping list every week). His handwriting is the true doctor chicken scratch. He does better with a computer vs handwriting, and of course he benefits from a spell-checker, but who doesn’t these days? How are you distinguishing between someone having a problem with handwriting caused by a physical disability (e.g., a paralyzed hand, making it difficult or impossible to write) versus someone who’s just … well, a poor speller with cruddy handwriting? And wouldn’t every poor speller with cruddy handwriting do better with a computer and a spell-checker?</p>

<p>The nature of some of these disabilities is puzzling to those who don’t have a dog in this scenario, because we sometimes have a hard time discerning a “disability” from “something someone is weak in.”</p>

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<p>Maybe someone will provide a shorter answer, but I was interested in this myself as I have dysgraphia caused by a physical condition and don’t know much about it otherwise. I found this enlightening: [Dysgraphia</a> - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysgraphia]Dysgraphia”>Dysgraphia - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>I was aware of the motor and spatial subtypes, but not any sort of a dyslexic subtype. Interesting. The causes of the motor subtype is me EXACTLY, and while investigating that is how we found my nerve abnormalities. I wonder what really causes it, my neurologist has about given up on finding a more specific diagnosis after testing for HNPP fell through.</p>

<p>“Motor dysgraphia is due to deficient fine motor skills, poor dexterity, poor muscle tone, or unspecified motor clumsiness. Motor dysgraphia may be part of the larger problem of motor apraxia. Generally, written work is poor to illegible, even if copied by sight from another document. Letter formation may be acceptable in very short samples of writing, but this requires extreme effort and an unreasonable amount of time to accomplish, and cannot be sustained for a significant length of time. Writing long passages is extremely painful and cannot be sustained. Letter shape and size becomes increasingly inconsistent and illegible. Writing is often slanted due to holding a pen or pencil incorrectly. Spelling skills are not impaired. Finger tapping speed results are below normal.”</p>

<p>I actually scored in the 99th percentile for spelling in my LD testing, my best area, but fine motor tasks are INTENSELY painful for me. I had been diagnosed with the neuropathy for 6 years before I ever heard the term “dysgraphia.”</p>

<p>Here are the other types…</p>

<p>“A person with dysgraphia due to a defect in the understanding of space has illegible spontaneously written work, illegible copied work, but normal spelling and normal tapping speed.”</p>

<p>Sounds like a problem someone with dyscalculia might have, our spatial perception and understanding is often nonexistent. </p>

<p>“With dyslexic dysgraphia, spontaneously written work is illegible, copied work is fairly good, and spelling is bad. Finger tapping speed (a method for identifying fine motor problems) is normal, indicating the deficit does not likely stem from cerebellar damage.”</p>

<p>And I also found this interesting, the symptoms:</p>

<pre><code>* Sufferers do not know that it is unusual to experience this type of pain with writing.

  • If they know that it is different from how others experience writing, they feel that few will believe them.
  • Those who do not believe that the pain while writing is real will often not understand it. It will usually be attributed to muscle ache or cramping, and it will often be considered only a minor inconvenience.
  • For some people with dysgraphia, they no longer write, and just type everything, so they no longer feel this pain.
    </code></pre>

<p>Another aspect of this, is that instead of a feeling of pain, the person may experience a sense of considerable effort and exhaustion as if they were lifting heavy weights repeatedly. This occurs even though arm and hand strength are normal.</p>

<p>That is also me EXACTLY. I wonder if other people with dysgraphia have neuropathies, too. I just know I’ve been this way since birth, though I’ve also had a significant head injury that resulted in a brain bleed-- that was several years after the onset of all of my disabilities.</p>

<p>I’ll post a handwriting sample later if I get a chance. :P</p>

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<p>I’m sure, based on what Calmom said, that there must be differing versions of the definition of dysgraphia. </p>

<p>I can only speak from one experience, which is to say that my D is dyslexic…the words come up off the page for her, though she has been able to get to a point where she can keep the words on the page. This happened in Jr. High for her, through very hard work. Now, she also reads for pleasure. However, she will say she has “dyslexic days.” Sometimes she’ll call and say, “I’m so dyslexic today.” So, while she has found many ways to cope with the reading issue, it is still a challenge.</p>

<p>For her, the dysgraphia is related to her dyslexia…the letters she is writing come up off the page. Since it is different from reading, in that she can not sit really, really still and hold it there (as it is already moving), she can’t do anything about this. She can’t spell, though she is a phonetical bad speller and a good spell check will take care of it, and she can’t punctuate and rarely capitalizes, etc…</p>

<p>If she has to be worried about these mechanics, it severely limits what she will write, as it is much more difficult to manage the mechanics then the content, for her. If, however, the mechanical elements are eliminated, she is an excellent writer. That is her disability, as it shows up in school for her today. She continues to work on it, and there is some evidence, see “IN the Mind’s Eye” that as these kids reach maturity in thier 20’s some further brain development happens to mitigate even these left-over symptoms.</p>

<p>However, I really don’t see her going into anything which would require a great deal of writing…she is very much looking forward to being done with her “writing” requirements. It will be a very happy day for her at the end of this year. It adds just hours to her workload, but she knows this and never complains. (She is actually rather hillarious about it, and has developed a very big sense of humor about it over the years. She occaisonally wears a shirt which reads, “Dyslexics are teople poo.”) </p>

<p>That’s my best explanation.</p>