Student Sues Princeton Over Learning Disability Accommodations

Parents Forum
421

<p>On exams I give, I allow extended time for anyone who wants it. There are some limitations–it’s not like the Hawaiian marathon–students cannot go away, eat dinner, and come back to the exam, or sleep overnight and come back. I have moved groups of students from the lecture room to a smaller conference room, though, to finish the exam.</p>

<p>This works well, in its context. The exams are entirely based on problem solving, and there is a limit to the level of elaboration that makes sense in response to the problems.</p>

<p>I think that professors often underestimate the length of time exams will take, unintentionally causing time stress for all of the students. In the first math course I took in college, the math prof announced that he allowed a 5:1 ratio between the time it took for him to write out the answers to the exam questions and the time allowed for our class (and a 3:1 ratio at doctoral level).</p>

<p>I have found this ratio to be applicable in my subject area, as well–somewhat to my surprise. If I can’t finish the exam in 12 minutes, it’s not a good hour exam. (Seems like bragging–but as a Walter Brennan character used to say, “No brag. Just fact.”) Of course, I don’t have to figure out what I am asking in those 12 minutes, and I know <em>how</em> to solve the problems, it’s just a question of actually working out the answers.</p>

<p>The first students tend to leave my hour exams after about 40 minutes; those who take longest usually need between 2 and 2 1/2 hours. This seems fine to me.</p>

<p>There are a few issues of context that make it workable, though. First, my students have plenty of exams with time pressure, so I don’t particularly worry about helping them to acquire speed under pressure. Certainly there are cases where speed is vital, professionally. So if everyone allowed unlimited time, I might need to rethink my strategy. </p>

<p>Second, the nature of the exams I give does not make longer answers better, per se. An essay exam in the humanities would fall into an entirely different category–it seems to me that some questions I’ve seen on essay exams could be answered at publication length, if time permitted.</p>

<p>I had my first real experience with exam time pressure in seventh grade, in a history class. We had a short-essay exam, where we were supposed to pick a certain number of questions to answer. About 40 minutes into the exam, I realized that I needed to pick questions about which I knew <em>less,</em> in order to finish on time. I wouldn’t do that to students.</p>

422

<p>It’s one of the things I have been saying too (post 415) for quite some time. Momphd and family gave a careful search in advance to find what school could offer best match for her prospective student with LD’s. Good planning, well done.
While I’m in the minority here, I believe the prospective student has an obligation- even a duty- to do such research when that student has legally documented special needs. I think to fail to do so, is to choose to put the student at risk.
Why do some here feel it is for someone else to look out for student as a first step; rather than as the very last resort?</p>

423

<p>Sorry for taking this OT (hah!), but does anyone know how hard it world be to get permission to use a keyboard for the written portion of the SAT if you have only had informal accommodations up until then? I guess I’ll ask in the LD forum.</p>

424

<p>“Our process of highly selective college choice for a student that needed accomodations was to wait until after admission, then call the disability services director at each possibility to find out what kind of documentation would be required and which accomodations would be routine for a student with the LDs that our student has.”</p>

<p>^^I did the same thing, with similar results.</p>

<hr>

<p>“Honestly, I wish we’d done it before applying–I could have saved some application costs.”</p>

<p>^^ I attempted to do this, but pretty much across the board, the disability offices were unwilling to have a meaningful discussion (which would have required some review of D’s assessments). I did, however, SCRUPULOUSLY review the on-line catalogues not only for geneds, distribution requirements and graduation requirements, but also to read descriptions of courses that satisfied those requirements. </p>

<hr>

<p>"While their answers were sometimes disappointing, we found the disability service directors to be quite forthcoming about the options at their institutions. What we learned greatly influenced the final choice, and made our student decide to reject what had been the top choice rather than try to change its institutional culture. Transitioning to college is hard enough for LD kids, without deliberately choosing a place where you know, going in, that it will take a battle to get necessary accomodations. </p>

<p>^^ True dat!! Based on my calls to disability offices and review of the catalogues, D scratched several schools from her list. D happily attends a selective LAC w/o geneds or distrib reqs (but a great disability office, which she uses less than I think she should); she struggled her first year, but made Dean’s List last year. </p>

<p>Too bad the P student and her family didn’t take MomPhD’s approach. (Princeton AND D1 sports!! That’s a very full-plate for any kid transitioning to college - - even w/o throwing LD into the mix.)</p>

425

<p>

[quote]
The idea of everyone getting extra time is appealing to me. However, it is probably exactly that slippery slope that elite colleges want to avoid. Allowing everyone to have extra time would compromise the standards of the program, which is one of the two things the ADA says a college should not have to do (the other being suffering administrative/financial burdens). Granting extra time to any student makes a chink in the wall of their standards, and it is not surprising that a college would resist. But the reality is that, as these things are clarified in the law, I think that certain standardized protocols will evolve, that will both protect individual students and protect the colleges’ programs./quote]</p>

<p>It seems worth repeating that Princeton DOES grant extra time to students. Some students who have commented on the Daily Princetonian article have made it clear that they receive this accommodation, and that they feel supported by the department and individual cited in the lawsuit.</p>

<p>Precisely why P did not offer this accommodation to the student in question is unknown to us at this time.</p>

426

<p>Given that Princeton offers extra time to OTHER students, the most probable explanation is that the Princeton disability office did not feel that plaintiff provided sufficient documentation to justify additional time in HER case. (Remember: its a case-by-case determination, based on individual documentation).</p>

<p>That’s why I think that its such a mistake to sue – it requires that the plaintiff bear the burden of proving that Princeton’s factual determination is clearly wrong. And it puts that determination in the hands of a Federal Judge who may be inclined to defer to Princeton’s judgment. I would anticipate that Princeton would be well prepared to explain the difference between plaintiff’s documentation and others where they have granted extra time.</p>

427

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<p>Your H’s spelling and handwriting are symptoms of dyslexia and/or dysgraphia.</p>

<p>That is not the same as a diagnosis. (If you wake up tomorrow with cough and a high fever, those are symptoms of swine flu – but that doesn’t mean that is what you have – it just means that it might be a good idea to find out).</p>

<p>The difference between a diagnosed learning “disability” and being “weak in” something is a matter of the specific pattern of symptoms and the degree of the weakness. A professional evaluator would do some additional forms of testing that would help tease out the weaknesses. For example, to test for dyslexia, an evaluator would probably want to see how well an individual does at tests of “rapid automatic naming” (the ability to rapidly read aloud a sequence of numbers or letters), and “nonword reading” (the ability to read phonetically regular nonsense words, such as “crum” or “teeb”)</p>

<p>“Broccoli” is a commonly-misspelled word, so a mistake in the number of c’s or l’s (brocoli, brocolli) probably wouldn’t be seen as an indication of dyslexia – a dyslexic would more likely make a mistake such as spelling the word brokale. For example, a couple of years ago, my son gave me a shopping list with “cheese” spelled chez, “coffee” spelled kofe. </p>

<p>Dyslexia and other learning disabilities manifest along a spectrum, from very mild to very severe. They also can be influenced by factors such as fatigue or stress, and they can change in apparent severity over time. It is very common for adults with mild to moderate symptoms to be undiagnosed dyslexics – unless they have significant early problems with reading, they are unlikely to have been referred for any sort of evaluation or help as children. Many dyslexics are capable enough at the decoding aspect of reading, but are very slow readers or have difficulty with comprehension – they find themselves reading and re-reading the same material in order to understand it, but they don’t realize that could be connected with dyslexia. </p>

<p>I’d guess from the combination of poor spelling and bad handwriting that your H. probably IS dyslexic - but that’s only a guess. Again – its a spectrum. (Going back to my flu analogy: many cases of swine flu are mild, and there are probably many people with those mild cases who don’t bother to go to the doctor or get tested, so never realize that they have had swine flu).</p>

428

<p>I agree, calmom, with what you say in #426. It is the most likely scenario.</p>

<p>I just wanted to avoid even a scintilla of speculation. :)</p>

429

<p>Either my son or I talked to the disabilities office at each school he was investigating. All were forthcoming and helpful, but as I recall, every office said they’d do an individual review of the student’s documentation to decide what accommodations he would qualify for. I didn’t specifically ask, but when I think back I get the strong feeling that no school would have done that review for any student before he was admitted. </p>

<p>Nobody’s going to want to read through fifteen pages of dense prose, trying to figure out what accommodations would be appropriate, unless they have to.</p>

430

<p>Cardinal Fang, while exact accomodations can’t be locked in prior to acceptance, I do think I could have ruled out some colleges if I had made queries prior to application. If the service refused to talk without documentation in hand, that in itself would be a clue…Some of the disappointing answers would have been the same before as after admission, such as answers to the documentation question. One university required documentation of certain LDs from early elementary school years (I am told this is probably a violation of ADA). In gifted/LD kids, this may not exist, because the kids’ gifts mask the LDs or because they figure out how to compensate, or because teachers don’t recognize the LDs (or if they do, they don’t alert the parents). For example, attention deficit without hyperactivity is often missed by teachers, especially in female students. Another issue is that some public districts, in an attempt to control special ed costs, actively discourage teachers from identifying LDs for as long as possible. We have students in our district with indisputable dyslexia who were never identified by their teachers, or who were only identified late in high school after a legal battle. </p>

<p>The college LD service’s answers to other generic questions prior to admission can be revealing (like, for what LDs do you allow time accomodations, and what % do you usually approve? Are certain technologies readily available? How many students use your services and how many have accomodations?). I also would do a sort of gut check–how responsive and engaging are the directors? Did they make time to talk or were they rushed? How expert and current on the research are they? Are these people that my student would be willing to spend time with or rely upon? If the answers are not positive, I would cross that college off of the application list. </p>

<p>I post this to potentially save some application and college visit costs–and even some wasted tuition or legal fees–for other families with LD college applicants.</p>

431

<p>MomPhD, I do agree that a student with a learning disability ought to check with the disabilities office at each school. But even a student who does that will not know exactly what accommodations she will receive. In my opinion, the Princeton student thought she had a pretty good idea of what accommodations she’d get, because (if we believe her press release) her brother got those accommodations at Princeton. </p>

<p>I don’t think she’ll win her case, or even that she should necessarily win, but she appears to have done reasonable due diligence. Princeton wasn’t going to review her documentation until she enrolled, probably.</p>

432

<p>i hate that my generation will forever be labled the trophy generation.</p>

433

<p>Well Buddy, look at it this way the “me” generation produced the “trophy” generation. Kind of makes sense.</p>

434

<p>We got a good prediction of very likely accomodations (including time) from Princeton’s disability office…</p>

435

<p>MomPhD, like you, we got the best answers after admission (the Disabilities Office was more likely to invest time in schools that admit 1 in 10 applicants after admission). But, we did get answers that we’ll have to send the testing information out to our psychologists to have them look at it, we won’t do that until you choose, we won’t guarantee anything. Among the accommodations we discussed were extended time (up to double time), note-taker, reader, scribe, and language requirement waiver. We did not push for commitments on all of these (my son has not asked for a scribe or a reader, though he could use the latter) but I don’t think all schools would invest the resources even post-acceptance to give a good prediction. We got a good sense in part from how they talked about the options (“we’ve never done that before although we will look at it” or “that would be highly unusual”).</p>

436

<p>I haven’t followed this thread enough to comment, but will say to future surfing parents something about asking the LD office questions in advance. First off, my s. (gifted+CAPD) did not receive (or ask for) accommodations in HS b/c he was admitted to GT magnet program - although had accommodations in GS. However, by gr. 10, he noticed a lot of trouble with memorization, sequential recreation and symptoms of poor notetaking (eg. all mental energy used in COMPREHENDING what is said in noisy background…ergo no energy to properly write in full what it was, or in some cases recall). Informally (with principal’s blessing) he began tape recording class, transcribing notes, spending 3 or 4x as long on homework. Pulled his GPA up, got into a very competitive flagship public, with a scholarship.
NOW he needs some accommodation (eg. straight As on assignments but terrible marks on tests that require detailed notetaking recall…so he’ll end up being way more “average” than his general inherent aptitude or in-class performance…)</p>

<p>I HAD SPOKEN AT LENGTH, twice over two years prior to his attendance, with the LD dept. First time, I was told to get him an Adult Scan, and was told what accommodations were possibly available. So I did. Second time, AFTER he was admitted, I was told that a SCAN wasn’t good enough, he’d need a full ($3,300) psychoeducational assessment in order to receive even the accommodations he’d received previously, because even though he HAS the CAPD diagnosis, the school does not necessarily accept that if affects his performance (This is a little confounding to me. For example, sit between two noisy generators at a cocktail party and listen to a lecture from across the room while someone’s talking in your other ear. See how many coherent ideas you get down while trying to HEAR what the crap was said…No brainer, right ; ).</p>

<p>That said, s. is stubborn and wanted to try to continue without notetaking assistance, but has finally (after midterm results) agreed to go for the assessment as, in his words, “I have done everything in my power to overcome my CAPD challenges and underneath it all there is still something getting in the way of my performance that I need help with and a strategy to conquer.”</p>

<p>I will tell you that while he is working his butt off and loving his school, pulling very strong assignment marks where he can and living with the outcomes where his weaknesses lie, I wish we’d have gotten the full psych assessment before now, (b/c it could take up to 3 mos now) and I wish he’d had a little more help along the way, and I wish we’d have formalized his HS plan with a 504. Yes, he is always and solely responsible for communicating and anticipating what he needs to others, future employers, etc. Many people, teachers included, seem to know very little about CAPD. Eg. girlfriends who despite this knowledge, can’t understand why talking on the phone is difficult. And yes, an employer will not have someone take notes for him at meetings. And yes, in doing things the hard way, he has definitely learned to take responsibility for himself, and has developed a level of character I admire.</p>

<p>That said, here’s the advice I’d impart now:

  1. If your kid is doing fine without accommodations in HS, remember that under an 18-credit course load at a rigorous U. it may be another story, and there just might not be enough time in the day to use the compensation strategies (such as transcribing tape.)
  2. Get the full psychoeducational assessment before they attend university. And 504.
  3. Download and read the LD handbook for your school.
  4. Get any information offered to you prior to acceptance in writing if you can, so that you’re clear on what you need and you won’t waste money on tests that are not accepted.
  5. Convince your child to turn up at the LD office for counseling immediately upon arrival at the U. Eg. before they need it. Getting it all together right before finals is NOT the time to be laying groundwork ; )</p>

<p>That’s my .02
Cheers,
K</p>

437

<p>I think that’s terrific advice, kmc. If you know there is a particular atypical academic difficulty, plan in advance to document and seek -as best as one can- accommodations for this in advance. Some here feel making the school aware of problems in advance is enough. Some feel it’s ok not to ask, or to press for info, then if school accepts them it becomes the schools’ responsibility. Some feel if student has seen how others were treated it’s ok to assume this student will be treated the same way.
Too bad the P student and family didn’t act on this kind of responsibility before her enrollment. Some of her problems may have been eliminated, or at least minimized.</p>

438

<p>Agree kmccrindle, great advice. Shawbridge, the accomodations we needed were not labor-intensive for the colleges. Perhaps that is why we got an easier, firmer commitment prior to matriculation where we asked. So, parents, judge your own kids situation accordingly. </p>

<p>I would also add that it helps to network with others who are attending your kid’s potential colleges and who have experience with the disability service. It provides another reality check on promised vs. delivered services and accomodations.</p>

439

<p>It is worth repeating too, that even if one asks in advance, and even if one tries to push for an answer- a person may not get a clear-cut yes or no in stone. But as others have said here, sometimes they got an answer, sometimes they got a feeling comparing one schools’ response to another. And sometimes receiving no answer at all, is actually an answer.
It may be that some choose not to ask because they want to be in the position of saying: “Nobody told me!”. Like the old phrase: "None so blind as… "</p>

440

<p>I agree with kmcrindle’s suggestions, and had followed almost all. I always emailed back in writing confirming what was said – as I had always done in HS.</p>

<p>MomPhD and younghoss, one thing we did was to ask for the names of kids getting LD services from the schools (after acceptance and on the short list). I think my son only called one, but could have called several. He was so convinced by the Deans, who have so far lived up to their word.</p>