<p>Calmom, nice summation. I do agree the issue you illuminate is at the very heart of the case and how I assume that Princeton will proceed with their arguments.</p>
<p>Calmom’s summary largely speaks how I feel too.
This isn’t a student that wants special accomodations. This is a student that already gets special accomodations, but wants even more accomodations, and is willing to sue to get it. Clearly, this school has already acknowleged the students’ legal right (ADA)to reasonable accomodations, to help her keep up with P expectations. The student and her attorney think what they are already doing isn’t enough to be considered fair.
I don’t mean for my opinions here to mean that no student should be allowed anything special- I am referring to what has been presented about this particular student at this particular school.</p>
<p>Just FYI for everyone: I do know that P in the past has admitted LD’ers on those rare occasions where they have a single LD manifestation, and something that can be accommodated and/or impacts the student in mainly one area. In those cases those have been exceptionally gifted students with a significant intellectual value to the U, and often in one area, such as engineering. I do not know if they’ve ever admitted a student with several issues such as this; this may be a first for them and something they did not plan well for.</p>
<p>Possible, epiphany; or it may be seen as something the prospective student and parents were fully aware of but something THEY did not plan well for.</p>
<p>In the interest of fair disclosure, my youngest son is mildly-to-moderately dyslexic. Until he was 9, he read at a pre-k level. However, over the years he has become a voracious reader–he was so excited once he figured out how to keep the letters in a line instead of feeling like he was trying to decipher a bowl of alphabet soup. However, since 3d grade he has steadfastly refused any accomodations–his idea, not ours–he staunchly wants to do what others do in the same way that they do it. He’s generally achieved his goals, he just has to figure out how to get there–so he often starts out slowly, way behind, and when he figures things out in his own mind, he then excels. But he still can’t spell–spellcheck is his bible. And he still has a tendency to make letters and numbers backwards. And to copy diagrams incorrectly. But he copes, and gets help as necessary. And sometimes gets lower grades than he would like while he figures out how to do what he needs to do to learn.</p>
<p>My nephew is the one who worries me. In college, he takes the minimum course load he is allowed to take, going year round to try to stay on the academic track. He generally signs up for 18 hours and drops the two most demanding courses every time so he can get by, even with accomodations, things are so difficult for him. He will be taking 5 years to graduate–he is in his fourth year now.</p>
<p>How will he please an employer if he can’t produce projects in the time frame required by his employer or clients? Or if he can’t handle the same amount of work as other employees because he needs more time?</p>
<p>He gets very upset when other students in group projects complain about him–he feels he is doing his best to pull his weight but he has trouble producing what needs to be done in the amounts of time alloted. </p>
<p>The difference between the assistance he got in high school and what he gets in college is enormous–in high school it was almost as if things were spoon-fed to him, there was an aide who helped him produce his portion of group projects (which were always tailored for him), he got 4 weeks to do a paper when other students got two, and he might only have had to write 5 pages instead of 10-12.</p>
<p>I really don’t know what the answer is , all I know is that I worry for him and his future.</p>
<p>I really highly doubt he will be hired to edit or write things, frankly. Hopefully he will find his strong suit and follow that as a career. A lot of the way school is conducted right now is completely outdated, anyway. Nobody reads or writes anything anymore, and a lot of the ways of measuring learning are simply archaic. I’m not sure how much of it even applies to the real world. How is he with a phone? Can he drive? Is he good at talking to people. I read somewhere that we teach in school in inverse proportion to what we need, for example, public speaking is optional and we spend much more time on that than we spend writing anything at all. I wouldn’t worry all that much.</p>
<p>As a hiring professional these grades should have an asterisk next to them. If I need an answer in X time, is this really someone I should hire?</p>
<p>That wouldn’t make any sense, because not all accommodations or disabilities are the same or have ANYTHING to do with whether or not someone could perform the job you’re hiring them to do. </p>
<p>My boyfriend received accommodations under the ADA last year in a chemistry lab because he fell down the stairs and broke his hand. Should have have an asterisk, too? How would we determine what needs to be flagged and what doesn’t?</p>
<p>Some of the brightest, creative, talented and successful people in the world have disabilities (Charles Schwab, Tom Cruise, Whoopi Goldberg, Tommy Hilfiger, Bruce Jenner, Richard Branson, Nelson Rockefeller, James Carville, Anderson Cooper, John Irving, your neighbors, your coworkers, your relatives, etc.).</p>
<p>After reading some of these posts, I realize it’s no wonder a lot of people choose not to self-identify.</p>
<p>To add to that: [Famous</a> people with LD and AD/HD - Talking about LDs | GreatSchools](<a href=“Parenting Articles, Worksheets, & Handy Resources | GreatSchools”>Parenting Articles, Worksheets, & Handy Resources | GreatSchools)</p>
<p>Their list of “famous” people includes not only celebrities but acclaimed businessmen and scientists, too.</p>
<p>I think there is a difference between a physical accommodation and a mental one. Physical ones are a bit easier to differentiate, but a mental one is extremely difficult to standardize.</p>
<p>To someone who has or has studied LDs, it’s more cut and dry than you would think, I guess. I think to not understand that demonstrates an innate misunderstanding of the nature of learning disabilities-- which nobody can fault you for, but I have encountered so many people that have basically said the system should just let me fail, and given that I am probably smarter and more able than a good number of them I find that incredibly offensive and just plain outrageous.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No. First of all studies have shown that kids who don’t qualifyt for extra time generally don’t benefit from it. Also, not everyone needs extra time for ADHD/LD reasons. I qualify for extra time on non-computer-based standardized tests because I can’t bubble in the answers easily (physical disability), though I almost never use it–I tend to finish the tests early. I scribe answers in my test booklet, someone fills them in, and I double and triple check it (there are inevitably errors). All this take time.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This.</p>
<p>“More time” is for school, but there is no “more time” in the business world. At some point you have to either perform or lower your career expectations because your inability to perform to expected levels comes at a real cost to others. </p>
<p>I find the fact that a claim from someone, who is without a physical disability, and attending a top 10 school, and demanding a competitive advantage over their classmates by claiming a LD to be particularity disingenuous.</p>
<p>Anybody remember the Judges daughter that had her admittance rescinded by Harvard at the urging of the student-body? I smell the same kind of attempted manipulation.</p>
<p>TwistedxKiss: I agree and don’t think it’s reasonable to just say “let them fail” – the problem, I think, rears its head when deciding how much accommodation is considered fair.</p>
<p>If you look through the comments in the Princeton paper, there is at least one student who says that her experience with the office that administers disability issues has been excellent. She points out that the diagnoses cited by Ms. Metcalf seem to be out of date and that several refer to what are usually considered “childhood” disabilities. (One of which supposedly manifests itself partially as clumsiness, which seems rather odd for an All-State varsity soccer player…unless it is strictly manual clumsiness.) Perhaps Ms Metcalf and her family have chosen not to have her reassessed for some reason (fear of losing advantageous accommodations that may no longer be justifed?) or perhaps the full details just aren’t cited in these articles. But something seems amiss.</p>
<p>“More time” is for school, but there is no “more time” in the business world. At some point you have to either perform or lower your career expectations because your inability to perform to expected levels comes at a real cost to others."</p>
<p>What makes you assume they aren’t doing that? Short of not going to college at all, many LD students cant set their sights any lower. People with my main disability, dyscalculia, are COMPLETELY limited to liberal arts fields and to colleges that don’t have gen ed requirements, most of the time. If we had any dreams of being doctors, vets, engineers, psychologists, economists, any kind of scientist whatsoever, we have no choice but to completely forget about it. And most of us are not complaining about it. We don’t live in the fantasy land that doesn’t have any expectations at work like you seem to think.</p>
<p>“I find the fact that a claim from someone, who is without a physical disability, and attending a top 10 school, and demanding a competitive advantage over their classmates by claiming a LD to be particularity disingenuous.”</p>
<p>I have a 130 IQ, a 3.7 GPA, I work, and I am self-sufficient. I attend a top 20 university, got in on my own merits as a first gen college student, and I am doing REALLY well here. I have a 7th grade math ability. I am just trying to get a liberal arts degree. I need accommodations to do that. I really don’t think I am a threat to anybody else out there by needing time and a half to finish an algebra quiz just so I can get my poli sci degree. Maybe accommodations wouldn’t be as necessary were it not for ged ed requirements that often weed LD students right out the door before they even get to start work on their degree, which may be completely unaffected by their LD-- like what nearly happened to me.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I don’t know if you are referring to me, but I don’t for see a career filled with filling in scantrons. For example, no major psychological assessments would require this of me as an assessor, as all are or can be hand or computer-scored (and many must be).</p>
<p>[“More time” is for school, but there is no “more time” in the business world. At some point you have to either perform or lower your career expectations because your inability to perform to expected levels comes at a real cost to others.] </p>
<p>“More Time” in the business world certainly can happen in a variety of ways without any “cost to others.”</p>
<p>-salaried positions in which the employee simply works more hours to achieve the same.
-adminstrative support staff handles paperwork – there are still lawyers out there who record/dictate and have other complete the typing/writing.
-or my personal favorite – Get a job that plays to your stengths. </p>
<p>My son is similiar to TwistedxKiss – It is the written aspect that slows him down. Work accomodations for him could simply by to utilize only verbal and electronic communication. The Blackberry will be his friend.</p>
<p>Do I think there is a such thing as too many accomodations? Yes. But do not make widespread generalizations that all accomodations negatively impact others or the bottom line.</p>
<p>I don’t want to make any overarching statements as to whether it is fair. However, I do have one question: would you support waiving the interview for pre-meds who have autism or asperger’s because they don’t deal well with people? Or waiving the whole personability requirement? </p>
<p>Clearly, there is no analagous speed requirement involved in people skills. But it is a case where a person has a neurological disorder and could be docked because of it. Is it more fair to dock someone because their disorder has impacted their personality rather than their speed at comprehending text or solving problems?</p>
<p>To be clear, I don’t have either but I thought it was an interesting question.</p>