<p>Toblin you are getting the straight story here so learn from those that know. My son is high IQ, 99th percentile nationally in math and writing a paper or having to read 300 pages over a week is the most painful thing in the world for him. I can read 300 pages in a day. He has great comphrehension and retention, once he gets through the 300 pages and his writing is wonderful and insightful if he can figure out when to capitalize the sentence and where to put the period and uses spell check. Forget paragraphs he hasn’t mastered paragraphs yet. He’s certainly NOT going to take any classes that require volumes of reading and he’s probably not going to be a journalist. But he could certainly become an engineer and could be sitting right next to you at work and you’d never know his reading and writing limitations. That is what one particular LD really is. Many smart kids with true LDs spend every waking moment trying to avoid accomodations, but many LD kids are also smart enough and self aware enough to know when they genuinely need to raise their hands and say “help.” I believe that sheer effort, drive and determination to be like “everyone else” is why so many “famous” people have LDs. As a parent I wouldn’t have believed it unless I witnessed it happening in my home. This is hugely different than someone looking for a competitive advantage, smart LD kids aren’t looking for an advantage they know that is something they will never have and they know every day they have to work harder than other kids and it has very little to do with what they will “do” for work…smart LD kids tend to know where their strengths are and they play to them.</p>
<p>collegealum: No, I would not necessarily support that, because bedside manner is required for a doctor working with people. My nephew is autistic and I think that would be something that would be difficult for him, and a doctor must be able to create confidence in the patient. It’s not like people with dyscalculia are trying to become rocket scientists, though, or dyslexics are trying to become professional editors. The accommodations are not designed for students with LDs to go above and beyond. It is often only to help students get through gen ed requirements unrelated to their degree, having chosen a field that will play to their skills-- or some sort of an executive function issue like writing.</p>
<p>I suppose it would shock you all to death that employers are also required to provide reasonable accommodation when able under the same act that protects disabled students? As long as the person is able to handle the essential functions of the job with or without accommodations, they are protected under the ADA.</p>
<p>ETA: momofthreeboys hit it on the head.</p>
<p>I have not read all the posts, but I do have some level of experience with this. My DD was Dx with a processing disorder LD in elementary school, she was also Dx gifted. In K-12 the mandate is to accommodate the student being able to perform to their potential. DD received double time on SAT/AP/etc any timed exam. That is the only accommodation she received and it was perfect. She was top ranked in her class and while she still not not finish her SAT it was above 1400 but was also statistically the same as her sister’s SAT and they had similar IQs so that made sense to me. She was not standard deviations above her sister’s score. And her sister finished every section with time left.</p>
<p>Then my DD went to a public top ranked university and the standard changed, they are only mandated to accommodate if the student is performing below average without accommodations.</p>
<p>If my DD was potentially a 99%, but was performing at 90% w/o accommodation, HS allowed her extra time and she proved her intelligence and got into a tough prestigious university. In college, my DD would have needed to be performing below 50%, which essentially means the kid must be physically handicapped to have that happen.</p>
<p>My DD had no extra time on exams, no extra time on grad school tests, etc. I am not sure of the right or wrong of it all and I am sure of abuses on the system happening, but my DD never abused it. And the extra time allowed to prove herself worthy of her place in a top university.</p>
<p>Yes, she also took a lot of razzing from her top classmates who said they could do better with more time, but really, they probably did not need it. DD was the only one in AP English who was incapable of completing the in class reading assignments and she spent all day on most Sundays catching up. Many an AP English book was read aloud by various family members (kinda fun bonding time) so she could get through it. Nowadays I would have her get unabridged books on tape, but they were not so available then.</p>
<p>Her grad school apps with a standardized test score lower than average and a GPA dragged down to a 3.6+ by A-/B+ marks means she would not apply for grad school at a HYPS type of school. Is that right or wrong?</p>
<p>I do not believe in the whole lawsuit thing and one would think the person would check out the accommodations offered at a school before choosing it and agree or not. I was told by friends that some small privates would elect to maintain HS level of accommodation, but DD wanted to swim in the big pond. </p>
<p>Luckily for her she got into a very highly ranked state school for graduate work and that was her preference, but she could have reached for something bigger-Stanford etc if she had wanted, but only if she had had extra time to prove herself all 4 years of UG.</p>
<p>This is a scam artist and an admissions mistake. Suing your University and making national news after a month into your college career?
Princeton will have to accommodate this for the next four years.
The admissions office will learn from this error. The price will be paid by applicants with legitimate disabilities who will not get the benefit of the doubt in future admissions. But the litigant will be home free.</p>
<p>I may actually have to contemplate meeting with a lawyer my first semester at Michigan. According to the disabilities office the romance languages department refuses to accommodate disabilities, and the romance languages department will not respond to my attempts to clarify the matter. I am taking every other avenue first but foreign language is required, and at the very least I need my physical disability accommodated or I may not be able to complete my degree. As it stands my adviser is trying to get the department to talk to him and has advised me to petition the academic standards board to override the department or provide an exception, which would be a shame because I’d really like to learn the material, so I guess I will be doing that. And here I thought I was home free when I passed statistics.</p>
<p>TWisted-- most schools will take sign language as a foreign language. Also, you can often substitute cultural classes. Computer languages will work, as well, but I don’t know if that’s an issue with your dyscalc, or not. FWIW.</p>
<p>Don’t listen to these people. They have no clue what they’re talking about…I mean, if you wanted to be an accountant, I’d probably want to have a pm conversation…but, I think you’ll do just fine with law. If my D wanted to be an attorney, I’d probably want to have a long conversation with her, but her science professors are all competing with each other to see which research she is willing to take up, and she’s only been in college 10 weeks. </p>
<p>It’s ignorant and uneducated. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>I think everybody should have 2 hours to do a 1 hour test. If the object is to see how well you’ve absorbed the material and how you can apply it, why make how FAST you can think, apply and write such an important part of the equation?</p>
<p>Thank you ellemenope. This is exactly the point. We, at some point, a long time ago, before calculators and computers and wordprocessors took over the low-level cognitive grunt work, developed an educational system, which is relatively outdated, in many ways, at this point. It is as if they ought to teach oxen yoking to agricultural students. It makes no intellectual sense. Everyone should have the opportunity to show what they know and how they can apply it. Speed tests are like testing how fast you can run next to a car, when everyone knows none of this work is done in the head anymore anyway.</p>
<p>I cannot do sign language because of my physical disability, unfortunately because it sounds fascinating, and computer languages would also be an issue because of what you’ve guessed. I took an intro programming class in high school, to salvage a math credit so I could graduate, and I managed but it was really tough. So we’ll see what the academic standards board comes up with. I was interested in Latin but because it’s a 4 semester requirement and I only have three left, if they can’t come up with something I can take over the summer or allow me to take one language class out of residence I can’t meet the requirement without spending a few grand more for an extra Fall semester. At the moment the problem is that none of the foreign language classes seem to offer the second semester class during the spring or summer, nor will they allow me to take any of the classes at another university to stay on time. I just don’t have thousands more dollars to spend on an extra semester. If they’d just let me use my computer I might be able to pass Spanish. The only other accommodation I was even considering asking for was having the listening portions of exams spoken to me instead of listening to a recording, because without being able to lip read as well I really struggle to “hear” what is being said. The latter I have been told is absolutely out of the question. It’s a shame, I finished three semesters of Spanish at my old school really well, but here I barely placed out of the first semester because of this discrepancy. So we either find a way to get through Spanish or I get to spend another $12,500 I don’t have.</p>
<p>Wow. Well, gather up the information of what is done at comparable universities. I would really doubt, given the large amount of federal money UM gets, and the latest laws passed by congress to strengthen the ADA laws, that you won’t be able to get what you need. Keep in mind, too, for financial reasons, that UM has a great law school and the students there will work on your case for free. Good luck to you!</p>
<p>Thanks! It’s possible once the romance languages department gets wind of how much dust I am kicking up that they’ll just say it’s okay or at least work with me, but at the moment they are refusing to talk to me. I have to take a foreign language learning aptitude test in december and then submit some paperwork for the petition to the standards board, and we just have to figure it out from there. Unfortunately if this isn’t handled promptly I cannot graduate on time, which may mean dropping out without completing a degree until I can pay off the debt I’ve already taken-- which would be utterly catastrophic. Were it not for this I might have been in a position to graduate a semester early!</p>
<p>It seems to me that Princeton has clearly accepted at least some of her disabilities as valid and requiring accommodations. It also seems to me unlikely that a 10 minute break could be an adequate accommodation for someone with just her language disorders, nevermind the rest of her issues. I don’t know what the proper accommodation is for this student but it does seem reasonable that an accommodation would address her specific disorders, perhaps 50%/100% extra time, dictation, oral responses, computer accommodation, etc. I don’t believe a student can dictate a specific accommodation and I understand the school may feel that some accommodations are inappropriate, but that doesn’t mean they can ignore the disability. So perhaps they feel that she shouldn’t be allowed to dictate because proper writing is important for a specific class; the school could still allow her to use a computer and to have extra time for that task.</p>
<p>One comment about this part of Calmom’s post:</p>
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<p>It is entirely possible that this student has word recall issues. That would fall within her expressive language disorder. My favorite example of this is my 78 year-old mother who has a PhD. She knows it, but it may take her a minute to put her finger on the right word. </p>
<p>It could also be a working memory issue and she could be accommodated by allowing her to take fewer classes and taking an extra year to graduate. </p>
<p>Honestly, I am amazed she was able to overcome these disabilities and get to Princeton. I have a child with expressive-receptive language disabilities who received lots of speech/ language therapy. He still has an IEP but would no longer test disabled because of all of his remediation and hard work-- however, that doesn’t mean that it isn’t a significant weakness for him. He will still sometimes misunderstand something and need to ask clarifying questions or need to take extra time to check the grammar on his writing. It is actually rather hard to be classified with a language disability as a student gets older. My school district requires an overall expressive or receptive score below a 77 or 78 regardless of IQ. This is much harder than an LD discrepancy model.</p>
<p>Twisted,</p>
<p>Could you take the class over the summer at a local CC where the instructors will probably be more accommodating? What a sucky situation. :(</p>
<p>I don’t quite understand why this student at Princeton has not had to secure updated testing. My daughter had to have new testing done for mere inattentive ADD every three years to be allowed to sit in the front and get a course syllabus! seriously, I believe in accomodations, but I think the leg analogy is perfect for this case.</p>
<p>Twisted, the accommodations you are seeking are extremely reasonable and I hope that a lawyer helps with this.</p>
<p>Extra time on tests and exams, as requested by the Princeton student, is a pretty standard accommodation, offered by public high schools, and the College Board in a fairly routine way for certain well-documented learning disabilities and health conditions.</p>
<p>Princeton’s lawyers are going to try to say that extra time on tests violates the criteria mentioned on the ADA site, that states accommodations cannot substantially alter the program.</p>
<p>This is really the crux of the matter. I do not agree that giving this student extra time alters their academic program, or rigor, at all. The extra time simply helps her follow the standards of the program in the best way possible.</p>
<p>If this case loses and sets a precedent, things will be difficult for other students at other schools, who now are able to get extra time. I have seen recent legal cases that support a student’s complaint over matters much less valid than this student’s complaint,that were successful in court.</p>
<p>A body of case law is needed to clarify these issues, and I believe the direction things will take is for more student rights, not less.</p>
<p>I can’t take the course at a CC-- I already took three semesters there but placed so low they are making me surrender the credits and start over. Apparently the foreign language requirement cannot under any circumstances be taken out of residence, and second semester classes are not available in spring or summer here. They are actually not even letting me attend a CC to make up the 16 credits I am losing by starting Spanish over, they are making me attend either Michigan or another 4 year over the spring and summer to make up the credits. Which personally I think is crap. I understand a limit on how many courses can be taken at a CC, but it seems to me if I am giving up CC credits I should be able to replace them with CC credits. Still figuring that one out. Might have to take classes at Eastern this summer. Like I can afford that.</p>
<p>I agree that the student in question here needs to get updated testing, you will almost never get away with asking for accommodation without testing from the last 4 years or so and generally I would think that’s reasonable, with some exceptions (my nerve abnormalities that I’ve had since birth are not going to spontaneously disappear and the testing is EXTREMELY painful, I’ve done it twice). The issue is that this is often cost prohibitive-- I’d like to think if she’s going to Princeton she can handle it, but I don’t know what kind of aid she is receiving. I was able to find a psychologist who had a deal with my school when I was a freshman and needed to be diagnosed and it was $500, typically I think it’s a few grand. The other quotes I’d gotten where between $2,000 and $3,500. While there’s not really a way around that (I was originally diagnosed with dyslexia in 3rd grade but not anymore, things change I guess!), it’s an unfortunate reality and COULD conceivably be why she is resistant to getting rescreened. This case is sort of weird, I don’t deny it, but generally speaking at least that is a reason why someone would be resistant to rescreening. I hope to god I never have to be rescreened. It will cost a fortune and my parents are really not supportive of this stuff.</p>
<p>HOPEFULLY I’ll graduate sooner or later and get my butt to law school, because this is PRECISELY the kind of case I want to be working on. :)</p>
<p>According to the Princeton soccer website, her father is “an energy lawyer” and she lived in a wealthy suburb and went to a private school that says that its college counseling program begins in middle school so that kids are positioned well for college admissions.</p>
<p>Although one never knows, it sounds likely that they could afford $3K for testing.</p>
<p>I’m sure the court will have to order testing to determine if she even has a case. I’m really surprised her testing isn’t way more up to date. Testing usually has to be done within three years to be considered relevent.</p>
<p>She probably will undergo testing, but I don’t see how it helps decide the underlying issue. As I understand it, Princeton is not disputing the diagnosis. Rather, they are saying they won’t give the accommodations she wants even assuming the diagnosis is as she says.</p>