Student Sues Princeton Over Learning Disability Accommodations

Parents Forum
141

<p>Mildred, what diagnosis is unclear? I’m familiar with the first three. My son’s expressive and receptive language disorder has always been diagnosed and treated by a speech pathologist-- not a psychologist, by the way. (It’s part of the packet given to the psychologist but speech pathologists administer and write up their own testing. The psychologists’ reports don’t even mention it.)</p>

<p>Oh, one other thing about abuse of diagnosis. It seems to me that if a huge fraction of kids at a top private high school is being diagnosed, the school must in some way be cooperating. The reason I’m saying this is because it’s not enough to have a disability that shows up in testing. For a school to give accommodations, the disability must impact learning. Psychologists generally ask for report cards and teacher reports (and sometime observe the student also). The teacher reports here ask the teachers in every single subject that ask how the student performs compared to other kids and what has been done to help the student. This is often why gifted learning disabled kids fail to get accommodations-- because the teachers say they are average in the classroom and the committee argues that there is no impact in learning. Nevertheless, in order to provide accommodations, classroom data must support testing data.</p>

<p>And I’m not sure the student in question hasn’t been tested since 2003. I got the impression that she was first diagnosed in 2003. It is unclear by the way the article was written.</p>

142

<p>Same here Momofthreeboys. And in fact, I have taken them because I too have ADHD diagnosed shortly after my oldest daughter. We go to a private practitioner because it goes in far more dept than any district testing would. And in fact, it gives a lot of attention to strengths. How else can one put in place compensation techniques. But going back to the original article, it just says she was diagnosed in 2003 and doesn’t mention recent testing. But that doesn’t mean there hasn’t been any.</p>

<p>Truth is, everyone has strengths and weaknesses… and yes, it would be good to know what those are. There has been a push for this kind of insight at my kids’ school in the lower elementary schools so teachers know how best to serve student learning. I think if you start to empower kids to their strengths early on, they will learn to be resilient - now that’s a life skill everyone could use.</p>

143

<p>

</p>

<p>And some, not all, of her issues are really not common at all for folks in her age group by any means at all. Some, not all, of her issues make her one heck of an anomaly in the LD world, really. One can look that up and wonder a thing or two.</p>

<p>One cannot infer, from the article, if she was ever tested since 2003, but I reckon she was not. And, I reckon that she was not because of the age groups, some, not all, of her issues pertain to. Hopefully I am wrong and she is not a rare anomaly in the LD world. </p>

<p>I have no way in heck to know any of this for sure with regards to her testing. And, I have already stated that I am an armchair neuropsychiatric doctor. </p>

<p>I wish this young lady the best. It will be horrible for a lot of folks if she looses her case, so I really wish her the best with all of my heart. I just cannot help but think that there is something not all too terribly Kosher about some of this stuff, but I do not think it is her own personal fault.</p>

144

<p>“No disrespect intended towards you, but it would take a really super duper long time to even attempt to answer your question”</p>

<p>None taken! And I have some training in Psych testing, but as a Child Psychiatrist, I do lots of ADD evaluations (NOT LD evaluations but the ddx is tricky), only SOMETIMES including a review of Psych testing ( I look at for example, at Freedom from distractability measure; digit span, coding, arithmetic, on the WISC. Of questionable validity.), and I get the requests for information regarding accommodations. Perhaps “JUST ADD” evals should include psych testing if accommodations might be requested, but medical benefits do not generally include this. I have a list that i usually give, and ask the school psych to weigh in, but I was not aware that there was a specific formula or guideline fromwhich the time vs time and a half or twice time reccs where made. Thanks! Now I know where to send the requests for details regarding accommodations!</p>

145

<p>“Some of the brightest, creative, talented and successful people in the world have disabilities (Charles Schwab, Tom Cruise, Whoopi Goldberg, Tommy Hilfiger, Bruce Jenner, Richard Branson, Nelson Rockefeller, James Carville, Anderson Cooper, John Irving, your neighbors, your coworkers, your relatives, etc.).”</p>

<p>I’m not sure how this is relevant to the question at hand. Learning disabilities have nothing to do with designing sportswear, drawing moviegoers to the box office with one’s handsome face, getting laughs from a packed comedy club, etc. We’re talking about succeeding at Princeton, which (according to Princeton) is about absorbing, processing, and expressing a lot of information rapidly and fluently. Whether you think Princeton is wrong or right to define itself that way, the disputed task is strongly related to the plaintiff’s alleged disabilities.</p>

<p>Overcoming dyslexia to jump over a really high stick (like Bruce Jenner) is about as relevant to the discussion as Stephen Hawking overcoming paralyzed legs to achieve insights in theoretical physics. You don’t need legs for that. If Stephen Hawking were trying to get into the NFL, I’d see the relevance.</p>

146

<p>I always wonder how these kids do when they enter the workforce. Do they request extra time for preparing presentations or briefs? Can they ever be held to the same standards as those w/o LD? How does their LD impact their performance at work? When does the right to extra time go out the window and is it even legal for the employer to ignore the LD? Does the ADA cover LD in the the work place? Just curious…</p>

147

<p>I agree with the above posts if the testing is that old, but have two additional thoughts on that detail:</p>

<p>A} this is a news article, therefore the info may be incomplete. She may have been originally tested in 2003 and retested recently but the writer not realising current testing is required may have only mentioned the onset diagnosis. If they had only mentioned a test last year we would all be jumping on the bandwagon of “what about a history of accommodation” We have to cut a bit of slack on the details, not knowing if they are complete.</p>

<p>B} Testing is extremely expensive, my DDs testing was out of date at her university matriculation. I had a devil of a time getting any one in the disability office to review it. My question was- if she were retested with the EXACT same diagnosis would she get any services? No one wanted to answer that, which I thought was plain old dumb. Her original diagnosing psychologist was still in the educational system, she said the diagnosis would not likely change. Before paying thousands of dollars for testing and traveling to that same person to do it, I wanted to know if they would offer any service. I finally escalated my question to a higher power in the office and learned that DD would not merit services.</p>

<p>She and I decided it was time to swim with the big fish. She is very clear that she would have had more A/A+ marks and fewer A-/B+ marks if she had had extra time on huge exams. But she is also proud of how well she did.</p>

148

<br>

<br>

<p>Funny you should ask. As this other recent thread attests, it can be very tough:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/811549-young-adult-ld-struggling-secure-job.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/811549-young-adult-ld-struggling-secure-job.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

149

<p>Every human being is not particularly good at some thing(s) due to our heredity makeup. So where is the relief? And when should fair judgment start? </p>

<p>Excepting for a physical disability, I think fair and unbiased judgment should start in higher education AND the workplace.</p>

150

<p>“Every human being is not particularly good at some thing(s) due to our heredity makeup. So where is the relief? And when should fair judgment start?”</p>

<p>There is a difference between not being good at something and being literally incapable of doing something that literally every normal human being can do without the slightest challenge.</p>

151

<p>Our insurance covers the testing. In fact, I am pretty sure they have to. Now, in our case, most went to our deductible because that’s the kind of policy we have, but in using a participating provider we only paid what they accepted from BC/BS. Yes, it was still a lot, but well worth the investment regardless of the fish you’re swimming with. As I said, it’s really hard to truly know where your strengths lie OR how to capitalize on them. As I said, they used to not cover it but they do now.</p>

152

<p>

</p>

<p>Nice post, Hanna.</p>

153

<p>

</p>

<p>Hayze, many high IQ LD kids know what their weaknesses are and play to their strengths. For the most part they gravitate toward areas of strength where they excel without having to compensate. Chances are you could be sitting next to a dyslexic or some other LD person at work and you’d never, ever know. College is different with core requirements and things that are required (much like in high school) and the LD kids can struggle. Again take a slow reading dyslexic who has to take a reading intensive core class. Or they are in fields where being slow might be a benefit to an employer if employee time is billed by the hour (eg a lawyer). That said, there are some instances where ADA does cover employees. If a manager requires a written report, an LD who struggles with writing might be allowed to give a recorded report or use a computer with spell check etc. Others with multiple issues may struggle like the person referenced in the other thread. It’s a mixed bag post college and entirely dependent on the type of LD or a mixture of LDs. And Twisted is correct, a true LD is very different than being weak in an area. For example, I’m pretty horrible at math but it’s not a learning disability, I’m probably statistically “average” at math and it’s just that I’m wired for verbal, languages, and other areas that I’m above “average”. My LD son started at like 10th percentile reading, 99th percentile math. It’s the huge difference in what he “should” be able to do vs. what he is “able” to do. Just like a physical disability. Most people can walk a mile, a person who is a paraplegic can’t walk a mile without intervention and accomodations. My son can now read, with intervention and accomodations he can read a book just like the paraplegic who eventually is “able” to walk a mile. Really no difference if you step back and think about it. The conundrum is what and which LDs require intervention and accomodations and how much intervention and accomodations are required. An example might be this girl. If she is ADHD perhaps she could be taking Ritalin, but she’s an athlete so perhaps she can’t take the drug. Does she deserve accomodations since theoretically Ritalin might help her or does she deserve other accomodations because she won’t take Ritalin because of athletics (and I’m totally “supposing” this scenario, but using it as an example.) It is difficult to “sort” out even for people living with it or parents with kids that have an LD. The other complexity is K-12 schools are required to be able to identify and prescribe the assistance for LD kids. Colleges are not, the applicant is required to self identify and negotiate the assistance separate from admissions.</p>

154

<p>

</p>

<p>Yes, but what’s the difference between physically unable to do something (as in the blind student who cannot see the board, the disabled student who cannot move his arm, etc.) and merely being … well, just bad or slow at something?</p>

155

<p>

</p>

<p>I am employed by a small company (just 20 employees). There is no way in hell I’m going to employ someone to do writing for me who struggles with writing and needs extra time to complete a writing job than the average person.</p>

156

<p>Hanna post #145, poster #146 and others</p>

<p>There have been some sad and ignorant remarks here. My comments were directed to those who wonder if it’s possible for LD folks to be successful without sticking it to their college and fellow students, their colleges, their employers, etc. </p>

<p>Below is a list of successful LD people that might meet your standards (Hanna, I left off athletes, artists, actors for your benefit). I’m sure many of these people graduated from some great schools and probably struggled through it (in spite of having to deal with teachers/fellow students and others who felt they shouldn’t be there and thought that they’d amount to nothing). </p>

<p>BUSINESS LEADERS</p>

<p>Richard Branson is an enormously successful entrepreneur and founder of 150 enterprises that carry the Virgin name, such as Virgin Airlines. </p>

<p>John T. Chambers, CEO of Cisco Systems, has revolutionized the technology industry and is recognized as one of the most fascinating business leaders of our times. </p>

<p>Barbara Corcoran, founder of one of New York City’s largest residential real estate agencies, recently authored Use What You’ ve Got & Other Business Lessons I Learned from my Mom. </p>

<p>[new]Ingvar Kamprad, Swedish founder and chairman of IKEA stores, claims he adapted the inner workings of his business to compensate for his dyslexia. </p>

<p>David Neeleman founder and CEO of Jet Blue Airways, started his first airline while he was still in college. </p>

<p>Paul Orfalea is the founder and chairperson of Kinko’s, an international, billion-dollar copy service company. </p>

<p>Charles Schwab is the founder, chairperson, and CEO of the Charles Schwab Corporation, the largest brokerage firm in the U.S. </p>

<p>Diane Swonk is Senior Managing Director and Chief Economist for Chicago based Mesirow Financial, one of the nation’s largest banks. </p>

<p>James Levoy Sorenson is a Utah entrepreneur who brings his talents to a wide range of ventures. </p>

<p>Donald Winkler, CEO of Ford Motor Credit, has inspired businesses to overcome obstacles to success. He actively supports individuals with LD.</p>

<p>LEGAL & POLITICAL FIGURES</p>

<p>David Boies, a runner-up in 2000 for Time Magazine’s Man of the Year, is a prestigious lawyer involved in high-profile cases. </p>

<p>[new]James Carville, is one of America’s most famous political consultants. According to E. Clarke Ross, CEO of Children and Adults with Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (CHADD), “Mr. Carville is perhaps one of the best-known people in Washington, and he lives with AD/HD.” Carville is also an author, restaurateur, and co-host of radio and television shows. Today he concentrates on international political and corporate consulting. </p>

<p>Gavin Newsom is the youngest mayor of San Francisco in 100 Years. </p>

<p>Nelson Rockefeller served as governor of New York for 12 years and as Vice President of the United States under Gerald Ford. … he attended Dartmouth, where he majored in economics. In 1930 he graduated Phi Beta Kappa and cum laude from Dartmouth … </p>

<p>Peter Wright is an attorney and advocate who represents children with special educational needs. </p>

<p>MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS</p>

<p>Harvey Cushing, M.D. (1869-1939) a world renowned neurosurgeon, had dyslexia. </p>

<p>Helen Taussig, M.D. (1898-1986) This successful cardiologist struggled with dyslexia, which made school difficult for her. Even so, she graduated from Johns Hopkins Medical School. </p>

<p>Delos Cosgrove, M.D. is a cardiothoracic surgeon, inventor of several medical devices, and CEO of the Cleveland Clinic. He says, “I didn’t know I was dyslexic until I was 33 years old. I went all the way through medical school without knowing it.”</p>

157

<p>Pizza, I get what you are saying, but legally if an employee is getting negative feedback on reviews etc. and can document a disability they may not have disclosed during the hiring process that impacts their performance, they can fall under the protection of ADA and companies may give them accomodations as part of the remediation, that was the only point I was making. What happens in the real world is probably different. Probably the employee would get moved around in an attempt to put them in a job that works for them and I would guess the employee either succeeds in the new position or is on to a different job before the employee would invoke ADA.</p>

158

<p>One of the women who recently won the nobel prize for science is dyslexic. Albert Einstein was dyslexic. Edison was dyslexic. Bill Gates has Learning Disabilities, which is a part of why he started his schools…Patton was so dyslexic his mother didn’t let him go to school until he was 16 years old. Winston Churchill was so dyslexic he finished at the bottom of his class every year…hmmmm. I could go on, to be honest, Leonardo DaVinci was dyslexic…many pulitzer prize winning authors are dyslexic, which boggles the mind, and Agatha Christie admitted to being dyslexic as well. </p>

<p>But, honestly, I think they should all just go wash dishes or something and we should remove every single ramp from the school building entrances. If you can’t walk in, you ought not to be able to be there. I think, really, everyone should just sink or swim. For example, forget public education, if you can’t afford to pay for your kids education, then you shouldn’t be able to have teachers, and then, all this affirmative action stuff? I mean, if you can’t get the same exact scores as the whites or asians, you don’t belong there. :rolleyes:</p>

159

<p>Amen poetgrl</p>

160

<p>My H was diagnosed as dyslexic as a child. He chose a profession where writing wasn’t all that important.</p>