<p>Even though Princeton did not initially dispute the diagnosis, that doesn’t mean that having been sued, the uni won’t challenge her eligibility as a threshold matter. Also, testing may be necessary to determine the level of disability and what accommodtions the student needed - - before considering whether Princeton offered reasonable accommodation.</p>
<p>Is there any real way of determining what level of accommodation puts a student on an equal footing with other students, as opposed to giving them an outright advantage?</p>
<p>It seems clear to me that reading texts to a student or reserving a spot in the front row provides a student with no advantage but simply helps overcome a disability. The same thing is true of providing a distraction-free environment or a 10-minute break. But when you get into giving a student DOUBLE time for a written exam…there are plenty of students who could use extra time to compose more cogent essays or work more carefully through challenging calculus problems and so forth. Is the institution bound to accommodate her up to the point where she gets an A on every test? Aren’t there plenty of other kids who are finding the material and the amount of reading and so forth challenging who may not be able to pull out an “A” response on a written exam in the time given and may have to settle for a C? What about them?</p>
<p>At my niece’s private school, something like 50% of the students were getting extra time on tests because their parents were able to pay the going rate to get a diagnosis from an accommodating “professional”: reportedly $15K. There is simply no way in hell that half of the kids at this school had “learning disabilities.”</p>
<p>If somebody is given adequate and legitimate testing, a doctor can tell how slowed down someone is and suggest appropriate accommodation regarding extra time-- I am not slowed down at all except rarely on math exams, which is why I only got time and a half vs double time. Students with disabilities are not necessary getting A’s on every test, many accommodations are set up only such that the student has the opportunity to pass at all. I got almost all 4.0’s in all my classes at community college, but math was C’s, maybe the occasional B if I really got the material and it was just my disability keeping me from PERFORMING-- which is the difference between someone who is not prepared for the test and someone who is disabled. It is not a leg up, pushing someone higher than they are, it is a support so that someone can function with the level of intelligence and preparation for the test they ACTUALLY DO have-- which means a different grade for every student. Just like the regular student with the C. The point is not to give them an advantage but to allow them to function DESPITE their disability if they otherwise have the tools to do so.</p>
<p>I mean, there is clearly something wrong when a student scores in the 90th percentile and above in every area of testing, but then one area is only in the 12th-- as was my scenario. It’s more than just not being good at something, even with accommodation I am pretty bad at Spanish, and anything that requires creativity, but it does not even remotely compare to what happens to me when I attempt to do math. </p>
<p>“At my niece’s private school, something like 50% of the students were getting extra time on tests because their parents were able to pay the going rate to get a diagnosis from an accommodating “professional”: reportedly $15K. There is simply no way in hell that half of the kids at this school had “learning disabilities.””</p>
<p>I want proof. There are definitely some people who abuse the system, but too many people act as if that is a justification for doing away with accommodations altogether or making them EVEN harder for a truly disabled person to get, so if you are going to say something like this you need to be able to back it up, or else you are needlessly contributing to the ignorance.</p>
<p>At my former workplace, 18% of the production staff qualified for FMLA. FMLA law did tighten up a bit, but I just found it way too hard to believe that % was truly so ill. I do not believe that almost 1 of every 5 persons there was physically disabled. We had a huge amount of mandatory OT, and wknd work, and I really believe many of these found an accommodating Dr. that helped them escape those many extra hours. Those employees without such a legal excuse had to work all the more to make up for those excused from such hours.
Any time one is publicly shown to be “crying wolf” whether it’s rape, child molestation, or level of an impairment, it poisons the well as one said here earlier. And it somewhat discredits those that may have publicly spouted off on their behalf. Off the top of one’s head one might say giving everybody 60 min to do a one hour test is a level playing field. Yet, with deeper thought we know that isn’t always true. Giving all 2 hours to do a 1 hr test is no improvement because then once again, all have the same time period. In some cases, students deserve more time than others to do an hour test.</p>
<p>It is a tough question as Consol says in post 122- How much help is too little to be fair, and how much is more than fair? And, Consol poses a valuable question(I’m re-phrasing)- If the student get all desired accommodations and gets an “A”, did student get too much help, if standard students did not do as well? How can we know how much help is enough, and how much is too much?
Didn’t I read this students’ testing was in ‘03? If I were the parent and wanted to require my childs’ school to provide additional special accommodations, my first step would be to show them documentation of her needs. To not do so is suspicious, imo.
I guess a part of my surprise here is that I feel the student and her family bear a greater responsibility for her current difficulties due to what appears to be their choice to send student to the high level school they chose- fully knowing students’ unique difficulties- without first better researching what accommodations the school would provide. So many posters here think the bulk of the responsibility for students’ difficulty lies with the school. It is not wise to dive head-first into a pool unless one knows how deep the water is. Can one just dive in, then sue the lifeguards?</p>
<p>I would never have imagined not being able to get extra time, myself. I did research at least 10 schools, and have had to seek accommodation for standardized testing as well, and more often than not extra time is the only accommodation offered, whether it is remotely useful to your disability or not-- everything else is the extra you argue about. Especially if I knew someone (ie the older brother) who got extra time, it would never have occurred to me. Should they have researched better, probably, but I can see why they didn’t.</p>
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<p>I would argue that if a student has that profile, the school’s obligation is merely to make sure that the 12% area doesn’t get in the way of the student succeeding and showing her ability in the 90% areas. So, for example, in a math class the student is not supposed to be evaluated on how good her handwriting is, and a brilliant math student should not be given poor marks if she is unable to write fast enough or legibly enough to complete a test she could have done well on if her handwriting were normal. But in a calligraphy class, the student with the bad handwriting should get bad marks-- too bad her disability prevents her from producing beautiful calligraphy, but the professor should not be saying that bad work is good work.</p>
<p>The area of dispute here is whether speed is a relevant part of what is being taught and measured in the Princeton classes. Princeton will no doubt argue that the learning objectives for the class include being able to quickly solve math problems or write cogent essays, and if the student can’t meet those learning objectives, she doesn’t deserve a good grade. It’s a murky area, with reasonable arguments on both sides.</p>
<p>So you think I should just fail all my math classes and not graduate even though I clearly meet the diagnostic criteria for a DSM IV and WHO recognized disorder? When I CAN learn algebra and statistics if only I am allowed a calculator and a bit of extra time to check over my work? I can reproduce all the things my professor taught us in class, dyscalculia can be so basic that one switches operation signs without noticing or transposes numbers, similar to dyslexia. I KNOW how to do the math and CAN do it.</p>
<p>If you are SO concerned about a level playing field, why does leaving learning disabled students to fail out not bother you? That is completely hypocritical.</p>
<p>Younghoss, every student should be able to choose a college on criteria other than accommodations offered. In an ideal world, fair accommodations should be assumed, just like housing and food. Suggesting that the parents and student should have researched better misses this point, I think.</p>
<p>I am going to tell a story concerning one of my children, who has multiple health issues, as I have mentioned. In senior year, she had a surgery and was not well for a couple of months. Every day, she got sheets that had been filled out by teachers, with homework assigned, list of work done in class, and so on. She took tests at home.</p>
<p>We did not know that she was doing very well with grades. We weren’t really thinking about GPA’s and so on. She had to teach herself, basically, but, nevertheless, was apparently excelling, and was now #2 in her class (nevermind what this says about the teaching quality at the school).</p>
<p>I got a call from the mother of the student who was previously #2 in the class. (I found out later that a scholarship he had won depended on him being #1 or #2). This parent said that my daughter had an unfair advantage, because she got assignments in written form every day, and her son got them in a more confusing oral form, in the class. She wanted to know if we could also give her son the written sheet that the teacher had filled out with the assignment every day, so her son had the same advantage.</p>
<p>I told this parent that of course he could get the written form of the assignment from us, and perhaps from the teacher too. But that my daughter certainly did not have any advantages in this situation.</p>
<p>The parent had totally missed the point, that our daughter was at a DISADVANTAGE because she was NOT IN CLASS at all for a couple of months!!</p>
<p>I feel as if some- certainly not all- but some of the opinions here are like that. If you feel that things are unfair, think about whether you would switch places and take on the illness or disability in your life in exchange for having the “advantage” of accommodations. MY daughter was in horrible, disabling pain and this mom was bitter because she got an assignment from the teacher each day!</p>
<p>I’m afraid we’ll have to disagree again, Compmom(post 128). First, I think in an ideal world no one would need special accommodations. Secondly, I don’t believe suggesting prospective student and parents should have better researched the school for accommodations before enrolling misses the point. In fact, I think it quite important. The reason for the suit is because student is not getting the special accommodations that she had guessed that she’d get. Why is it unreasonable to think knowing her multiple disabilities(based on a 6 yr old diagnosis) that prospective student and family should have been more certain? What if student had enrolled in school intending to get a degree in Econ., but a business major wasn’t even offered? </p>
<p>Clearly here it has been demonstrated just in this forum that questions like - how disabled? To what degree? How many disabilities? What are typical accommodations from this school? Or in other schools? What is enough to be fair; yet not so much as to be unfair? What is reasonable? Those are all grey areas among posters here. I’m not an attorney, nor a P grad, but even I can comprehend that if I want to join an organization and know in advance I will need special accommodations, I should check with organization to eliminate grey areas before I commit.</p>
<p>And all of these questions, I think, my doctor is more qualified to pass judgment on than you-- yet I am told almost whenever I mention having a disability that EVERYBODY is bad at SOMETHING and I’m just wussing out and trying to game the sysem.</p>
<p>From the article:“Metcalf-Leggettes complaint asserts that she informed the University of her disabilities when she was applying and sent Princeton statements from a Virginia-licensed Clinical Psychologist/Neuropsychologist who recommended that she be accommodated with 100 percent time extensions.”</p>
<p>Did Princeton ever agree to these accommodations, or did they just need a varsity soccer player?</p>
<p>The literature is pretty clear that extended time doesnt do any favors for students who are not disabled. What my client needs is to do is cut through the haze of her disability, which is a labor-intensive process, Seth Lapidow, one of Metcalf-Leggettes attorneys, told the law journal."</p>
<p>Really? I am pretty familiar with the literature on this topic, but wouldn’t many students do quite a bit better with unlimited time? Think about the writing SAT. Please.</p>
<p>“If somebody is given adequate and legitimate testing, a doctor can tell how slowed down someone is and suggest appropriate accommodation regarding extra time-”</p>
<p>I’d like to hear more about that. What do you mean “how slowed down?”. I get requests for documentation, but was not aware of a test that could measure appropriate accomadation regarding extra time.</p>
<p>She was first diagnosed in 2003 (not evaluated last in 2003). It’s common knowledge with families dealing with LD’s that evals. should not be more than 3 yrs. old. Extended testing time is a common accommodation. 100% extra time is definitely not as common as 50%. Princeton is saying that they don’t give extra time. They cannot make general rules like that. They have to look at each case on an individual basis.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, she was not able to reach an agreement or compromise with Princeton. The next step is the legal system. The courts will work this out. </p>
<p>It is really dissappointing to read how competitive and angry some of you seem to be. Life is not a competition. Education should not be a competition. Where’s your compassion, empathy, etc.? Where’s your humanity? Do you really think that disabled people are trying to take over the world or Princeton?</p>
<p>From my previous post (worth stating again):</p>
<p>Some of the brightest, creative, talented and successful people in the world have disabilities (Charles Schwab, Tom Cruise, Whoopi Goldberg, Tommy Hilfiger, Bruce Jenner, Richard Branson, Nelson Rockefeller, James Carville, Anderson Cooper, John Irving, your neighbors, your coworkers, your relatives, etc.).</p>
<p>After reading some of these posts, I realize it’s no wonder a lot of people choose not to self-identify.</p>
<p>I have yet to find a university that will tell me the specific accommodations a student will receive <em>before</em> the student is admitted. And, once admitted, the student has a limited time to respond to the admissions request. I have spoken to disabilities offices and they have told me that the student is to apply and decide along with all the other students; that they are not involved in admissions. Once the student will attend, we are to send the testing to the office and they will meet and review the material. So the student finds out the accommodations after the student is already committed. Perhaps some schools are different but none of the schools we spoke to told us that they would review testing and decide on accommodations for students who are not admitted.</p>
<p>What I have seen is very different philosophies regarding accommodations. At one of my kids’ schools, we were told that accommodations are up to the individual professors and all the office can do is recommend specific accommodations. Yes, that includes wheelchair/ blind student accommodations. </p>
<p>As far as how much time is appropriate… That is one of the things that is tested. My child’s testing was timed to see how much longer he took in different areas-- reading, writing, math. Presumably, the extra time would bring the student up to the normal range. So if a student takes 1.7 times longer than most students, the psychologist may recommend that the student get 50% extra time. </p>
<p>By the way, please feel free to let me know what colleges are all this accommodating. One of my kids read 2-3x slower than the average for a child her age; she was given 50% extra time in high school, gets nothing in college. One of my kids has a physical illness. The college dean told her the professor couldn’t give her a 0 for work due while she was hospitalized. The professor did and, when my kid went back to the dean, he said grades can’t be appealed. Yes, it’s a top school-- but the kid was in the hospital (sent by the health center).</p>
<p>There isn’t an exact measure, testing is more complicated than that, but in the testing your ability to process different sorts of information is measured and observed, as well as the severity of the disability-- depending on the test performed, I suppose, I can pull out my testing later and read it to you as an example. There are specific numbers, in a variety of variables, that can be compared to an average that my doctor used to get a rough estimate of my processing abilities relative to non-disabled people. I was also diagnosed with mild to moderate dyscalculia, and so I would obviously require less accommodation than someone with a more severe case. If the testing is done legitimately it is not as if doctors are like OKAY YOU ARE DISABLED HAHA HERE TAKE ALL THE TIME YOU NEED ON TESTS FROM NOW ON! I went through hours upon hours of many different tests, was interviewed by several different doctors, and had to go through alllll kinds of stuff for the doctor to come to the conclusion of what disabilities I have and how disabled I am.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t deny that some doctors are diagnosing without legitimate diagnoses, but if those students are getting accommodations so far as I know the school has some major fault in that. All the doctor can do is make recommendations, the school is fully within their right to request specific documentation. I have had to fight tooth and nail to get accommodations because reports from my doctor, fully describing my condition and how he came to that conclusion, were apparently not adequate. The entire results of my screening are on file. And to damn the whole institution of accommodations for the disabled because of a few scam artists is kind of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, don’t you think?</p>
<p>“The college dean told her the professor couldn’t give her a 0 for work due while she was hospitalized. The professor did and, when my kid went back to the dean, he said grades can’t be appealed. Yes, it’s a top school-- but the kid was in the hospital (sent by the health center).”</p>
<p>That happened to me last year. I was hospitalized and awaiting surgery and my Spanish professor informed me I needed to get back to class or I would fail, because it wouldn’t be fair to the other students to accept a letter from my doctor. Thank god it turned out I didn’t need the surgery in the end.</p>
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<p>That’s why I say give everyone double the time. The ones who process quickly will be done in an hour; the ones who are a little slower may only need an extra 15 minutes. And this kid will take the full 2 hours. Everyone will take exactly how much time they need to finish the test and show what they know.</p>
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<p>WISC IV measures processing speed with a thing or two. But then you have other aspects to proper LD testing to consider with that as well and how that would relate to your question. At your leisure you can look up the full kit and caboodle of what proper LD testing entails and then you can go to Assessment Psychology Online and see what the scores and whatnot really mean. No disrespect intended towards you, but it would take a really super duper long time to even attempt to answer your question. </p>
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<p>There is something that I 
as an armchair Neuropsychiatric Doctor just cannot quite place my finger on with what this young lady says she has from that Y2K3 testing versus what she may or may not still have now. I do not mean her, nor anyone with a LD, nor anyone who is a parent with someone with a LD any disrespect, btw.</p>
<p>I think that’s what bothers me most. 2003 was a long time ago; this kid was in elementary school when diagnosed. Is this state law that we dealt with that required testing every three years? And back in early Y2K, insurance didn’t cover testing and it was an out of pocket thing. That’s no longer the case if we use a participating provider. Still, I would imagine that’s the first thing the school would require - updated testing. But I just have to say that there are lots of kids who are absolutely brilliant with learning disabilities, and so I recognize the need for accomodations, but if NO ONE manages to finish an exam at Princeton for some reason than I see no point in the extra time since to give double time would not be consistent with leveling the playing field. I will be interested to learn how this story unfolds. But to just hand over a slew of accomodations based on seven year old testing and results would be setting quite the precedent that would not work in P’s best interest as a school and certainly not one with its reputation.</p>
<p>For those who don’t know, in my son’s case the testing occurs with regularity at the end of every 3 years during the summer prior to the 4th year. The testing takes roughly 3 hours per day for three or four days (depending on which tests are scheduled). The tests are administered and interpreted by a school district psychiatrist. The results (that are given to us are pages and pages in length covering all sorts of things and are actually quite interesting. My son says that are quite exhausting and he’s been taking them since he was 6. I would love to take them just to see what they said. I suspect that every single person has strengths and weaknesses as people are all quite different, but it would be interesting to see what patterns emerge.</p>