Colleges always talk about their student to faculty ratio, but they never really discuss what that actually means. We visited a college that has about 5,000 students so it’s not a very large school, but the student to faculty ratio is 16:1, which I thought was rather high for a school that size. Since the class sizes are small, according to the information we were given, does this mean that there would be fewer classes because there aren’t enough professors to teach them?
Each school’s Common Data Set, section I, shows not only the overall S:F ratio but also class size distributions (e.g. number of class sections with 2-9 students, 10-19 students, etc.) That may give you a clearer picture for the schools that interest you.
I’ve seen complaints of inconsistencies in how colleges calculate the S:F ratio (in particular, allegations that some schools include grad students in the student count while others don’t). Perhaps there also are inconsistencies in how colleges define or count part-time faculty, faculty on leave/sabbatical, etc. The CDS does provide instructions that cover some of these issues.
In general, you can expect average class sizes to be much larger than the posted S:F ratio might suggest. You also can expect popular elementary-intermediate class sizes to be larger (maybe much larger) than the average. For some schools, you can look up enrollment numbers for specific courses in an online schedule for each term.
I would make sure you aren’t overemphasizing the importance of class size, all things being equal.
Organic Chem and Psych 1 are going to be large, lecture style classes. A seminar on Chaucer which begins with reading Homer is going to small.
Comparing the “statistics” on class size isn’t that useful if you are going by faculty/student ratios.
Moreover- one of the best educational experiences of my life was in a HUGE lecture on Shakespearean tragedy, taught by a star professor. No, he didn’t know my name. There was standing room only in the lecture hall, students spilling out into the hallways, kids getting to class half an hour early to fight for seats. But he was both a renowned scholar AND a magnetic teacher. Class size reflected the fact that EVERYONE wanted to take his class (computer nerds, hockey players, lit majors, theater geeks). Sitting in the lecture hall actually felt like being in the audience during a performance at the Globe (except fewer fights in the seats and no blood was spilled).
So all in all- take the ratios with a grain of salt. On CC it is received wisdom that small classes are inherently better and I don’t believe that’s true.
Huge lectures and very, very large classes are NOT an option for S2 due to learning disabilities. That’s why I’m asking the question. This college claims that there are small class sizes, no big lectures, but the ratio is concerning if that is indeed true. I think the large state U is only 14:1, which is why the number is confusing. This is a small private school.
I would email the admissions office and ask.
Then take @tk21769 's advice and google [school name + common data set] so you can see how many classes are what size.
I don’t know what you consider “very large” but D is at a small LAC with a low s-t ratio and still had one lecture her first year with like 100 students (first semester of General Chemistry I think), though it had discussion sections that were much smaller and taught by one of the 3 professors who took turns leading that larger lecture.
That’s still smaller than many large universities, which also often have discussion sections (but led by TAs typically). But not tiny.
If you are concerned about class size, try to find the college’s online class schedule to see if it lists class sizes. That may be more reliable than average class size stats. It can also show whether specific classes of interest are large or small – the size of organic chemistry for biology majors is more important to a biology major or premed than to a non premed philosophy or math major.
I don’t think there is a big difference between lectures 50 students and lectures to 300. Most lecture classes will be accompanied by smaller break out sessions generally taught by grad students. I had many TAs who were better than professors. It’s a rare school that doesn’t have some lecture classes. Two that I know for sure don’t are St. Johns (great book curriculum) and Sarah Lawrence. Class size will also vary a lot by major. I majored in Visual and Environmental Studies.
I attended a college with 6000 undergrads. My studio classes were all 20 or less, sometimes more like 10. My architectural history courses were mostly 40-50, but were taught lecture style - however I got to know the professor who taught them well and ended up having him for a thesis adviser. I took an art history seminar with 5 people. And like blossom, one of my best courses was a lecture course by a star (Greek lit in my case.)
I think you can look at class sizes for the courses your kid is likely to take freshman year and ask how they are taught.
“On CC it is received wisdom that small classes are inherently better and I don’t believe that’s true.”
There are more advantages of having small classes than large ones, however, the most significant being the opportunity for the teaching faculty to get to know the student – and vice versa – at a personal level. This could play a huge role in the student’s ability to secure excellent recommendations for grad school, research internships and other opportunities and in the job market, as well. At a place like Williams where not only the faculty to student ratio is low but perhaps also because of the isolated location, faculty often invites students to their homes for social gathering outside the class. It’s no surprise that the students at Williams enjoy smooth and successful transition to securing their places in top grad schools and in the job market. Another significant advantage is a greater opportunity to delve deeper into the subject matter at hand with individual questions and answers readily accommodated. Such advantages are either non-existent or extremely difficult to obtain in large classes.
You can’t look at averages if you don’t want to have any large classes. Looking at averages get you to the problem, “If Bill Gates walks into a room of 50 people, on average they are all billionaires”. You need to research the maximum expected class size.
I had meals with faculty members in my department from time to time. Also because I went to college where there was a residential college system there were a number of faculty members who ate with us regularly. I think the French table (conversation in French with one of the profs) was weekly. It was funny - I never took any of her classes, because her reading lists were too long, but I did enjoy the conversation.
Tigger- I had a kid at MIT and he spent time at professor’s homes, got recommendations for grad school (and a few phone calls made on his behalf for a job between undergrad and grad) and Cambridge MA is hardly an isolated location. Oh- and his favorite professor taught a class with 500 undergrads in it.
Don’t conflate class sizes with the entire educational experience. And I can assure you- my kid was not such a go-getter that he made any special effort with the professor of the 500 student class. So the advantages are neither non-existent or extremely difficult. Some professors at some institutions believe that cultivating relationships with students is an important part of their job and others do not. Some of these professors teach both huge and tiny classes.
And therefore we can conclude… what exactly?
If a kid doesn’t want large classes, the discipline/major is likely to be extremely important. I was a Classics major- a lecture with 15 students was considered large since most classes were seminars with 8-10. My roommate was a bio major- her freshman and sophomore classes in her discipline were huge but junior and senior year she had several 10-15 student classes. Down the hall was a kid majoring in Medieval Studies and she had several courses of exactly one student- herself. My guess is that chem majors did not have the luxury of a one person class.
OP- get hold of the course catalog and check out Psych 1, Econ 1, and the first two bio classes in the sequence. Then call the U and find out how many kids are enrolled in these classes since these are likely to be the biggest classes in terms of enrollment. Then you can decide how meaningful the raw ratios are.
One thing to consider is that if a college claims a commitment to smaller class sizes taught by regular faculty, find out what it does if a surge of interest means that more students will want to enroll in a course or major than the department can handle with the desired small class sizes. I.e. will the department:
A. Increase class sizes?
B. Restrict access to courses and the major?
C. Hire more adjuncts or use more GSIs to increase the number of sections while keeping class sizes small?
For a student looking for smaller class sizes taught by regular faculty, none of the above is really desirable, but which one is less undesirable than the others depends on the student.
Sometimes, careful inspection of the online class schedule can tell which of the above options the college or department chooses if it faces an overenrollment (in the department) situation.
Nothing quite like the value of discussion based classes to aid the confidence of the young college student. Being asked their opinion, forming their opinion, and expressing their opinion amongst their peers and a professor within any subject affirms their belief they belong. It also makes them better prepared for class as they know they will be contributing, voluntarily or otherwise. A little fear is a good thing!
Not every subject can be taught this way, but the more of it, the better. Becomes a more immersive educational experience and happens far more regularly at smaller schools. It’s just a function of numbers. My S is a freshmen and even his intro calc class has only 20 kids. Class is taught by a prof (no TAs ). Prof also handles office hours (no TAs). S has had several one on ones to better master the subject. Not going to happen at a large school.
“And therefore we can conclude… what exactly?”
Well, for one, we can conclude that, in general, we can bet on a small class size with the students to teacher ratio of 7:1 likely being better than 500:1 with a TA taking care of your child’s education. We can bet that your child would probably have an easier access to the prof for mentoring or advice or discussion or for LOR’s in a class with 7:1 ratio than 500:1. While I wouldn’t go so far as to “conflate class sizes with the ENTIRE educational experience,” I wouldn’t, by the sake token, entirely dismiss the impact of the class size, either. I don’t know of any student or parents who would go out of their way to make a list of schools made up entirely of large class sizes when selecting their ideal school choices, do you? I stated specifically what advantages there are for small class sizes. What specific advantages are there for large class sizes?
The faculty can offer a greater variety of upper level courses because it does not need to have as many instructors’ teaching time consumed by many small sections of calculus 1.
In some classes having the professor know the students does not matter. In others being taught in a small class with a so-so professor or taking class time for questions useless to you is detrimental. Freshmen don’t need to have a relationship with the professor in a field unrelated to the major either. Large intro classes are often broken up into discussion groups and TA’s can be excellent for those. Plus just low numbers but without large class offerings in subjects is limiting. Remember that as students get involved with upper level classes in the major they more often have smaller classes and more professor contact for those recommendations and advice.
Some top tier schools are changing formats. I saw in an alumni publication UW-Madison is using a different format for calculus than in the past. Perhaps a large group but different format with students needing to do work beforehand. I also know of students not attending lectures because they can view them on their own time with computer access. Times have changed.
Advantage of a large class- when the professor is a Nobel laureate who still believes that teaching undergrads is his life’s mission, and is regularly given recognition for being an amazing instructor and mentor.
You want your kid to miss out on these experiences because the class is capped at 25 students, or the college is so small that it doesn’t have this kind of faculty?
Even at huge universities, there are numerous courses with 15-25 students. Looking at the raw ratios isn’t all that helpful. My guess is that Egyptology majors don’t struggle to find small classes, or that students taking advanced seminars/labs in nanotechnology (even at huge universities) have trouble fostering relationships with faculty.
YMMV.
Thanks for all your input - I will definitely do some more digging to find out the size of the largest classes and other info as some of you have suggested because S2 is really interested in this college.
As for the advantage of a large class - in this instance, there is none. S2 has a learning disability and should NOT be in a class with more than 50 kids, or he may have trouble learning. I went to a large U so I know what I’m talking about. I’ve been to lectures with 500 kids, and it wasn’t just at the level 100 classes. It was large and impersonal. That is not what S2 needs. He is coming from a small private school, and his favorite thing to do is to talk to the faculty and get to know them one on one. S1 had the same experience and going to a small college was the best option for him as well, even without a disability. It gave him amazing opportunities he wouldn’t have had otherwise because he’s shy and wouldn’t have reached out to his professors in a large U. Instead, at a small college, more than one sought him out to be a research assistant.
Anyone who says that the size of the class is not important, either never attended a large university or never tried to stay attentive and be engaged while dealing with a learning disability. Try sitting in a class of 500 and see how attentive you are. I don’t even have a disability, and it wasn’t always easy. And asking questions - forget it. I barely spoke to my professors. But then again, that wasn’t important to me.
Mine did - recs for summer research and internships that first summer of college. She got several.