<p>I wonder if Swat is this catty.</p>
<p>Anytime Phonathon (our annual fundraiser) callers get people who don't want to be contacted, we remove them from our list. Phonathon callers don't want to deal with disgruntled alums, since we don't take responsibility for that (current students, that is). I don't want to seem hostile or argumentative: I'm just serious that it's as simple as one quick notification to get them to stop, including anyone's parents.</p>
<p>P.S. All the people arguing (I don't consider myself arguing here) aren't attending Swat, so Swat isn't particularly catty, no. ;)</p>
<p>You're talking about the phone list. I'm talking about the mailing list. I'm not on the phone list, as far as I know, because Swarthmore doesn't have my phone number... and never will. I'd like to be taken off the mailing list, and I actually asked to be removed, but they never did.</p>
<p>In all this debate and statistics and surveys, I never understood why AE is so dissatisfied with Swarthmore. It would be useful to potential students and their parents if the reasons for the dissatisfaction were more specific. </p>
<p>What's wrong with Swarthmore according to you, AE, why shouldn't I send my son there in your opinion? And please don't say: "send him if you want, but I wouldn't". I'd like to know your reasons so I can either take them seriously or discard them as irrelevant, as far as my son is concerned.</p>
<p>AE: I have a S at Swat and called the parents line to ask that his grandparents be removed from the mailing list. This was done immediately, and they were extremely nice about it. I was also contacted by phone his freshman year (for a donation) and explained that while I loved Swat, the 45K (!) tuition was all I could handle for the foreseeable future. Again, they were very nice and I have not been contacted since. We continue to receive all the 'fun' parent stuff we should be receiving, just not the requests for $$. Maybe you have not used the proper channels (?)</p>
<p>In my opinion, Swat is best value for money in undergrad private education, anywhere. And no, it's not perfect. Child #2 starting there in the fall.</p>
<p>
Why is that your opinion? I have taken classes at Swarthmore, Bryn Mawr, and two public universities (one of those was grad school), so I don't feel anywhere near qualified to make such statements as that. I will say, though, that the math and statistics courses I took outside of Swarthmore were better than the those that I took at Swarthmore. The language courses I took were about equal. In both of those cases, the public university was a better value. That said, there's far more to an undergraduate education than math and language classes. And, so, this brings me to onemoreparent's question:</p>
<p>
</p>
<ol>
<li>Dining services is terrible. Can't they hire a competent chef to oversee things with all of that endowment money they have kicking around? This has been a perennial complaint of far too many students for far too long.</li>
<li>The dorms are plentiful but their quality and convenience are very uneven. I did not enjoy living in ML my freshman year, for instance. They also lack in terms of amenities. HVAC systems have never and probably never will be completely up to date in all the dorms (or other buildings).</li>
<li>The professors are good, but they're not spectacular. I had a few great professors, but plenty of awful ones as well. This is probably where I was most disappointed. I was expecting a higher caliber of teacher than I got. In truth, the average quality of my AP teachers in high school was at least as high as that of my professors at Swarthmore, when it came to being able to teach well and keep things interesting. So, I was either really lucky in high school, really unlucky in college, or Swarthmore didn't live up to the hype in this department. My favorite professor at Swarthmore was actually a visiting professor from an Ivy.</li>
<li>The workload is sometimes a joke. By this, I mean a professor can simply throw a few hundred more pages of reading at you or a couple of extra problems in the problem set in a week to cover up for any shortcomings he may have in his lecturing and teaching skills. Quantity is too frequently emphasized over quality.</li>
<li>Philadelphia is a miserable city. The borough of Swarthmore may as well not even exist, as far as the typical student is concerned.</li>
<li>Liquor World is all the way down in Delaware.</li>
<li>The social scene is boring and repetitive. It is also boring and repetitive.</li>
<li>The honors program is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, if you are definitely going to be pursuing a career in academics, it can be good. If you definitely are not, you stand a good chance of turning into a second-class citizen in your department if you decide not to go honors. The degree to which this happens varies per department, but the professors are far more interested in spending time with people they think will be future professors than with people who clearly aren't.</li>
<li>The seminar format is overrated. Sometimes, I got irritated with having to hear yet another ill-prepared, student-led class discussion when the professor probably could have given us a more succinct and accurate picture of what was going on (I say probably, because some could not). I never understood why they made such a big deal of it there. Of the three best classes I had at Swarthmore, only one was a seminar.</li>
<li>Career services could do a better job of getting a broader range of company/non-profit visits to campus. They could do better at getting connected into a wider array of fields. In my class, it seemed like most of the people who weren't going immediately to grad school became "consultants" or went to work for non-profits. The most viable options were grad school, finance, "consulting," non-profit, and a smattering of IT. This could just be a function of Swarthmore being a liberal arts school and, as such, attracting fewer companies looking to recruit graduates, of it could be something specific to Swarthmore itself.</li>
</ol>
<p>Those were probably my biggest problems with the place, except obviously #6 is a joke (except sort of not... those damnable Pennsylvania liquor laws). And, again, this is just my opinion, the opinion of one alum, for whatever that is worth. There are other shortcomings, of course, but they are either very minor or nearly impossible to articulate to someone who hasn't been a student at Swarthmore. There are also plenty of positive aspects to Swarthmore. If you want, I can run down a list of those for you as well.</p>
<p>Ultimately, though, I can't tell you whether you should send your son to Swarthmore.</p>
<p>Hello AE:</p>
<p>Could you do the positives, as well, today? I could use some cheering up today after reading the above!</p>
<p>
[quote]
Hello AE:</p>
<p>Could you do the positives, as well, today? I could use some cheering up today after reading the above!
[/quote]
Sure, I'll try to get around to that later today.</p>
<p>Wow, AE. It certainly seems that you harbor A LOT of animosity toward Swarthore! What years did you attend? Did you graduate? I can't help but think there's something else gong on to explain your comments. You are so invested in the negative!! I hope you can 'let it go' at some point. I am sorry your experiences there were so overwhelmingly negative. I encourage others in that situation to transfer! No school is good for everyone.</p>
<p>A.E.</p>
<p>*That's it? That's the entire list? * Those are pretty much the garden variety complaints that every young know-it-all college grad has about his or her college. Food sucked. Some of the professors were great; others not so much. Some courses were better than others. Some of the dorms were crappy and what about that lousy heat in Acme Hall that was always either too cold or too hot! Social scene got boring by the time I outgrew it and was ready to move on.</p>
<p>Join the club. I said the same thing about my college experience thirty years ago and I dare say every parent on this forum has said variations on the theme, regardless of where they went to college. Once you get to be old and befuddled like us, those are the things you joke about with your class agent when he calls each year to shoot the breeze about the good old days and pry an alumni donation out of your fingers.</p>
<p>Do you think I remember all of my professors or courses? Heck no. I can't even remember what they were. I can remember Gifford's James Joyce courses. And MacPherson's Doestoevsky courses. You always remember the good ones.</p>
<p>From your relentless negativity, I thought you had real issues with Swarthmore. I had no idea it was just a standard, and largely uninspired, laundry list of college complaints. I mean...college food sucks. There's a headline!</p>
<p>
[quote]
You're talking about the phone list. I'm talking about the mailing list. I'm not on the phone list, as far as I know, because Swarthmore doesn't have my phone number... and never will. I'd like to be taken off the mailing list, and I actually asked to be removed, but they never did.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm talking about both lists. The Alumni office can remove you from all paper mail and phone calls, since the alumni fund encompasses both. Sorry if I didn't make that clearer. Everyone I know (my parents included - tuition's enough for now, haha) who asked to be taken off the list has been right away. Maybe you should ask again - if they don't take you off now, I'd be a little surprised.</p>
<p>Having one's name removed from the list would mean no longer being able to complain about the horror of receiving mail from the oh-so-irritating alma mater.</p>
<p>AE, thanks for the elaborate list of things you didn't like about Swarthmore. I sincerely appreciate it. I was expecting something worse actually, and to tell you the truth, I'm quite relieved.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That's it? That's the entire list? Those are pretty much the garden variety complaints that every young know-it-all college grad has about his or her college. Food sucked. Some of the professors were great; others not so much. Some courses were better than others. Some of the dorms were crappy and what about that lousy heat in Acme Hall that was always either too cold or too hot! Social scene got boring by the time I outgrew it and was ready to move on.</p>
<p>Join the club. I said the same thing about my college experience thirty years ago and I dare say every parent on this forum has said variations on the theme, regardless of where they went to college. Once you get to be old and befuddled like us, those are the things you joke about with your class agent when he calls each year to shoot the breeze about the good old days and pry an alumni donation out of your fingers.</p>
<p>Do you think I remember all of my professors or courses? Heck no. I can't even remember what they were. I can remember Gifford's James Joyce courses. And MacPherson's Doestoevsky courses. You always remember the good ones.</p>
<p>From your relentless negativity, I thought you had real issues with Swarthmore. I had no idea it was just a standard, and largely uninspired, laundry list of college complaints. I mean...college food sucks. There's a headline!
[/quote]
I actually do remember all of my courses, good or bad, and all of my professors. You may think it is trivial or uninteresting that I was disappointed by the overall quality of the teaching and the academic experience at Swarthmore, but I do not. I chose Swarthmore specifically because I wanted to be wowed by my professors and have consistently good classes, but I was not and did not. I elected to give up some of the prestige available to me at an Ivy, because I thought Ivy prestige was a sham and the academic experience at Swarthmore would be markedly better. Now, I just don't know if that's the case. </p>
<p>And, yes, college food sucks, but the food at Swarthmore is, as far as I know, even worse than average. Certainly worse than every other institution I've visited or attended. Doesn't Bowdoin have a great dining service? That's what I've heard anyway. If they can, surely Swarthmore can as well.</p>
<p>
Yes, I graduated. My explanation is simply that I think Swarthmore doesn't live up to the hype. Transferring was not a realistic option for me, and would have delayed my graduation. There is nothing to "let go." I ended up at this forum after doing a web search for some information, and I was so taken aback by the overwhelming and undue positivity (and ignorance) about Swarthmore here, that I thought to myself, "this can't be serious." I felt compelled to respond with my perspective, just so that people know there is another side to the story. Apparently, this is enough to make me the villain here. Even in your post, you suggest there must be something else going on and that I've got to "let it go." Sorry, but there's no great drama for me to share with you along those lines. I'm just another Swarthmore alum with just another Swarthmore alum's story.</p>
<p>
Okay, because you say so and because Swatties are notoriously well-meaning and honest, I'll try again (this will be the third time).</p>
<p>
[quote]
You may think it is trivial or uninteresting that I was disappointed by the overall quality of the teaching and the academic experience at Swarthmore, but I do not.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I know. You are a very principled, idealistic young man who takes the mythical ideal of academic perfection very seriously.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I elected to give up some of the prestige available to me at an Ivy, because I thought Ivy prestige was a sham and the academic experience at Swarthmore would be markedly better. Now, I just don't know if that's the case.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ahhh. The real truth comes out. Shoulda gone with the designer brand! I didn't think you would admit that.</p>
<p>I know that you don't want to hear about the COFHE surveys, so I would bore you with the fact that Harvard consistently scores as the bottom of the pack. Ever wonder why Larry Summers told a couple of Harvard students complaining about the faculty that, if they wanted to get to know their professors, they should have gone to Amherst or Swarthmore?</p>
<p>Of course your own college's food is worse than schools you visit! Doh. You don't have eat their same old tired food 365 days a year until you are sick of it. People who eat at Swarthmore a few times think the food is pretty good. BTW, you really cracked me up earlier with your indignation over not hiring a top-rated chef (a chef! a top-rated chef!) to oversee an institutional kitchen serving three squares a day to 1300 kids. A top-chef? What's next? Ice sculptures? I know, maybe they could get Bobby Flay.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Hello AE:</p>
<p>Could you do the positives, as well, today? I could use some cheering up today after reading the above!
[/quote]
Okay. Some of these are probably general positive about an elite academic institution and some are more specific to Swarthmore.</p>
<ol>
<li>Very nice campus. With the possible exception of Pepperdine in Malibu, Swarthmore has the nicest campus of any college or university I've seen and, frankly, I've seen too many. The buildings work together very well, with a blend of old and new, neo-gothic and modern (I'm probably biased by a preference of stone to brick). The plantings are well thought out and maintained. Parrish Beach is a great place to hang around. My father has frequent business in Philadelphia and, to this day, he still catches the train out to Swarthmore to sit in an adirondack chair and do his work there.</li>
<li>Guest lecturers and speakers. Swarthmore does a good job of getting prominent academics, authors, activists, and so on to come to campus. I have no statistics to show whether it is better than other elite LACs in this regard, but I was satisfied with the variety and amount of these events.</li>
<li>Geographic diversity of students. I don't think I'd have learned as much about other parts of the country (or world) than where I was from if I'd gone to a school with substantially less national prestige. This is probably generally the case with top schools. Students simply aren't interested in trekking across the country to go to a regional public university, and such places are far less expensive for locals than they are for out of staters, so you get a lot more geographic and cultural homogeneity at those places. College is a time to broaden your perspectives, and this is a great plus in that regard.</li>
<li>High caliber peer group. This is where I think Swarthmore and, more generally, elite colleges really stand out. The students there are all very high quality individuals, and most are either good critical thinkers or on their way to becoming good critical thinkers. This is really valuable, because I think you stand to learn more from your peers in college than you do from your professors anyway. The "up all night" BS'ing sessions about intellectual and pseudointellectual matters are great, and you stand to learn so much by comparing notes or ideas. You know you've really understood something you've learned when you can convince a contentious Swattie in a debate that you know what you're talking about. You might be on your way to lunch, and you encounter a friend along the way, and all of a sudden an impromptu discussion of the morality of slavery in Ancient Greece starts up, drawing other passers by in, and before you know it, it's 3:00pm and you're late for class.</li>
<li>High caliber of connections and associates as an alum. The peer group advantage continues on into your life after Swarthmore. You will find Swarthmore graduates in any number of areas with all sorts of different social and business connections and, most of the time, they'll be happy to help out a fellow Swattie. Even with my mixed feelings about the place, I've still helped many Swatties find opportunities, and I've collaborated with several in my own work. I recognize that a Swarthmore graduate is likely to be competent and either has a solid work ethic or is incredibly clever about getting around doing mountains of work. Either way, that's the type of person who can make for a good colleague or collaborator, or someone I can recommend to another. There is an instantaneous degree of trust and willingness to cooperate that comes from both parties having gone to Swarthmore. Again, this is no doubt the case for other elite colleges, but it is one of the factors that contributes to making a Swarthmore education a worthwhile pursuit.</li>
</ol>
<p>interesteddad, your sarcastic and off-the-mark personal attacks just keep getting worse. You should make a better effort. And, no, I don't want to hear more about these surveys that we can't read and that don't apply to all of the colleges listed in the first post. And your diliberate misrepresentation of what other people say is just plain insulting. Do you think we can't see through this sort of thing?</p>
<p>What I said:
[quote]
1. Dining services is terrible. Can't they hire a competent chef to oversee things with all of that endowment money they have kicking around? This has been a perennial complaint of far too many students for far too long.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Your reply:
[quote]
BTW, you really cracked me up earlier with your indignation over not hiring a top-rated chef (a chef! a top-rated chef!) to oversee an institutional kitchen serving three squares a day to 1300 kids. A top-chef? What's next? Ice sculptures? I know, maybe they could get Bobby Flay.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What I said:
[quote]
And, yes, college food sucks, but the food at Swarthmore is, as far as I know, even worse than average. Certainly worse than every other institution I've visited or attended.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Your reply:
[quote]
Of course your own college's food is worse than schools you visit! Doh. You don't have eat their same old tired food 365 days a year until you are sick of it.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes, clearly I'm calling for Swarthmore to hire Bobby Flay. That's exactly what I said, because a "competent chef" must be a "top-rated chef" and, therefore, Bobby Flay. Seriously, this sort of thing is asinine, and many institutional kitchens do actually employ a competent chef, and I have attended institutions with better dining services. This is a forum about Swarthmore, not an elementary school sandbox. Could you please, for the love of all that is intellectual and academic, try to raise the level of your posts? Again, you've filled your post with assumptions and personal attacks, like that I should have gone for the designer brand. I still don't care about the designer labels, and it wouldn't have any bearing on my success in my career. What I did say, though, is that perhaps I was wrong in assuming that Swarthmore's academic experience would be markedly better than that of an Ivy.</p>
<p>Do you even know how to make a post that doesn't misrepresent someone or engage in personal attacks, because 100% of your responses to me have done just that. Guess what, not everyone loves Swarthmore. Deal with it.</p>
<p>Another positive point:</p>
<ol>
<li>Public safety. Public safety is competent and they don't needlessly interfere with the students. They're also friendly and helpful. As far as I can tell, they really like their jobs, and the campus feels safe 24/7. More generally, this applies to most of the staff. Yes, I've complained that dining services is lacking, but the people are at least friendly and do make an effort. I imagine they do their best with what they're given.</li>
</ol>
<p>And, don't forget that you "heard" that Bowdoin has good food. That's almost as rich as your internet surveys!</p>
<p>
[quote]
1. Dining services is terrible. Can't they hire a competent chef to oversee things with all of that endowment money they have kicking around? This has been a perennial complaint of far too many students for far too long.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I read what you said the first time. I'm still rolling on the floor laughing. Indeed, college students have been bellyaching about college food for centuries. And, by God, somebody ought to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! WE SHOULD DEMAND IT!</p>
<p>Here's an idea I bet you hadn't thought of.... Tell all the vegetarians to jump in a lake so dining services can put all its effort into better food for the meat eaters. That would probably work. But, those incompetents running Swat's dining hall try to provide a range of options three times a day, including salad bar and a custom grill man for cooked to order stuff. God, they are SO incompetent. Oh, the humanity of it all!</p>