Students'/Alums' Take on Swarthmore

Colleges and Universities A-Z Swarthmore College
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<p>momof3sons:</p>

<p>Thank you for welcoming me to this forum.</p>

<p>Starch:</p>

<p>Of course we all believe what we wish to believe. It would be so boring otherwise...</p>

<p>My beliefs about Swarthmore are based on a myriad of credible sources and not on meaningless magazine’s college rankings or internet opinions expressed in college fori or “prestige.” I have been involved in academia as an administrator and professor for over 20 years and have had the opportunity to learn about what makes an effective education and meaningful educational experience. </p>

<p>You are correct in your statement that competing LAC’s can offer students the once in a lifetime experience that I mentioned in my earlier post and which I believe my daughter can have at Swarthmore, should she choose to attend there. If you reread my post, you can see that I never stated that Swarthmore is the only place where this can be attained. As a matter of fact she is waiting to hear from other schools where she could also have this. It is irrefutable that there are other fine colleges with talented and passionate students. However, there is no denying that each institution has a core character that sets it apart from others and that is what makes for a great or miserable college experience.</p>

<p>I know my daughter very well. It is from this knowledge that I have concluded that Swarthmore would be a great fit for her. Colleges are like shoes. If they fit, you can walk in them endlessly. If they do not fit, you cannot wait to take them off. I only want for her, a great college fit and not one where she can’t wait to get out and move on. </p>

<p>It is a good thing for your son that “reality” did not set in for you in time to insist that he attend the flagship public university and that you were willing and able to fund a liberal arts education in a small intellectual environment, like the one you, too, experienced as an undergraduate. I applaud you for having provided your son with such an opportunity.</p>

<p>Flagship state universities do a good job. Graduates enter the workforce. Many “succeed” and outperform many LAC’s graduates financially. However, I do not measure a person’s worth or success by what they earn, but by how they live their lives. Likewise, I do not measure the value of the college experience by what the piece of paper earned after four years of college can get you. To me, the process, not the outcome is far more important. So can my daughter get a good education at our flagship state university? Sure! However, I know that to my child, sitting in a small classroom where discussions can take place will be far more meaningful than sitting in 200+ seat auditorium listening to a lecture, or worse still, sitting in front of a screen watching a lecture just as students often do at the flagship state school. I also know that to my daughter, having to endure football frenzy and the obligatory keg party of many state universities and some privates on football weekend, would be torture. And sororities and fraternities is something that she can do without as well. Many of her classmates are being forced by their parents to attend because it will be a free ride for them, but I refuse to do so. No, I would not make her endure our flagship state university which she can attend for free as a result of her academic accomplishments. Instead, I will not retire early and will continue to work so like her brother before her, she, too, can have the privilege of attending the school that she chooses. Perhaps it will be Swarthmore, perhaps not, but in any event, I know that it will be an institution where she will not be just a number in a crowded classroom impacted by the latest state budget woes....</p>

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[quote]
Liberal arts colleges such as Swarthmore are not meant to train anyone to be ready to enter the work force upon graduation. There are other schools that do that. Liberal arts colleges are vehicles for the enrichment of the mind with a mission to teach those engaged in the pursuit of knowledge to question. Thus the true worth of any highly selective college is in its student body, for it is from peers that students will learn the most, and its faculty, for they are the ones entrusted in guiding the students in their quest.

[/quote]

That's true, and that is the biggest redeeming feature of Swarthmore. That said, the Swarthmore student body is no more exceptional than the Columbia student body or Amherst student body or so on. So, considering equivalent student bodies, it is wise to start questioning other aspects of the schools being examined. I think the student body argument applies to elite colleges on the whole, and is a legitimate reason for attending an elite school over a lower tier school, but it doesn't do anything to help select between the elite schools themselves.</p>

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[quote]
Thus far, I have not read very much to dissuade me from my understanding that Swarthmore would provide my D with the tools to continue to grow into a decent, caring human being. Yes, it is expensive, but so are all colleges and universities that are not subsidized by a state's coffers. After funding a son’s liberal arts education at Brown followed by a Columbia MFA, I am ready to start again with my daughter next year. We are not independently wealthy, but we work hard to provide our children with the tools to become great human beings.

[/quote]

It won't matter where your daughter goes to school when it comes to providing her with the tools to continue to be a decent, caring human being. You've either done your job as a parent by now or you haven't, and no school is going to destroy or redeem her. Like I said earlier, college just isn't that big of a deal, and where you end up going isn't going to make you or break you.</p>

<p>
[quote]
My daughter has been admitted to Swarthmore and will have some tough choices to make by May 1. Should she choose Swarthmore, I will gladly continue to work hard and will gratefully write the checks for tuition so that she can have the opportunity to experience a once in a lifetime opportunity of living and learning among some of the finest, most dedicated students in this country, if not the world.

[/quote]

Swarthmore's endowment thanks you.</p>

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[quote]
If a student is belligerant and out-of-control at Worth, the student will probably end up either in hospital or in jail regardless of BAC levels.

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I've never heard of a student getting transported from Worth to jail.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Again, would somebody please provide any substantiation for this alleged Swarthmore policy of providing no medical assistance in cases of alcohol poisoning. It was a BS claim to start with.</p>

<p>The whole point of keeping a student for observation at Worth Health Center is to be able to call in an ambulance should the condition deteriorate.

[/quote]

Actually, I had a friend get inebriated to the point of passing out once and, when awakened, he flew into a drunken rage and ended up bashing his head on a door hinge. So, a couple of us took him over to Worth, where we sat in a room for a while. I think I was the only sober one there. One guy started smoking in the room and the injured guy was incredibly belligerent (and he was an English major with a big vocabulary, so it was pretty funny to listen to him go). Eventually, I was asked to drive him down to the emergency room in Springfield (see earlier posts about parking). No ambulance was called to take him to a hospital. So, you know, don't believe everything some college pamphlet tells you.</p>

<p>Overall, though, I think this tangent is a case of parents blowing things out of proportion (college is just as much a transitional time for parents as it is for the students). Yes, students get drunk, but that's what happens in college. If you ask me as a total non-expert who isn't in the medical field but, who has spent time at Swarthmore drunk off his ass and with other people who were drunk off their asses, the college's policy is just fine, and the students do a good job of looking out for each other. This is yet another benefit of a top-flight student body.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
come on theyre mostly rich kids, swat is going to protect them and all they stand for from the real wide world, the boro police are discouraged from coming on campus - theres a hands off policy. When it comes to drugs and alc theyre going to keep the authorities away as long as possible.

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</p>

<p>More pure BS.</p>

<p>The Swarthmore police park a cruiser on campus next to the frat houses and/or other party venues virtually every weekend night. Typical alcohol arrests occur when an inebriated student acts like Otis the Town Drunk leaving a party in the view of the patrol car.</p>

<p>Every time students complain about the presence of these cruisers, Swarthmore Deans make a public statement welcoming their presence on campus and reminding students that, as responsible adults, they are subject to the same laws as any other Pennsylvania resident. Having read these statements over a period of many years, I can only conclude that Swarthmore College invites this police presence on campus in the behind-the-scenes conversations with the Police Chief.</p>

<p>As you know, there was a drug arrest and resulting suspension this semester at Swarthmore. Not only did the College not shield the students from the police, the College contacted the police in the first place, a contact that led to the student's arrest.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I've never heard of a student getting transported from Worth to jail.

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</p>

<p>See the Phoenix story about the alcohol citations surrounding the Mary Lyons Halloween Party in 2004 or 2005. A beligerent drunk was arrested at Worth and transported for an overnight in jail by the Swarthmore police. </p>

<p>The police use the same type of screening as Swarthmore does to determine whether a drunk goes to the hospital or to jail. Conscious, walking (staggering), and talking (screaming) goes to jail. Unconcious, unable to walk (stagger), and unresponsive (not talking, not screaming) goes to the hospital for alcohol poisoning.</p>

<p>Worth probably asked you to drive your staggering, beligerent friend to the hospital to save him from being arrested on the spot. The Swarthmore police monitor the scanner channel and respond immediately to all ambulance calls.</p>

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<p>You are, once again, absolutely wrong when it comes to the Swarthmore Police. Yes, they do monitor the Public Safety scanners, but they don't come and bust students at the drop of a hat. I was hanging out with a group of people in the Worth courtyard one evening, and they were getting pretty drunk, pretty high, and pretty loud. Eventually, someone complained, and a public safety officer showed up and told us that we should probably pack it up, because the police monitor their scanner and might be along soon. We did pack it up (disposed of all the evidence, anyway), but the police never came by. So, in this example, two things occurred which you seem to deny happen at Swarthmore: (1) We were shielded from the police by college personnel and (2) the police never showed up anyway, because they really don't care so much about students getting hammered on campus, as long as they stay on campus.</p>

<p>You can speculate all you want about why I was asked to drive my belligerent, drunken (nobody ever said staggering) friend to the emergency room in Springfield instead of calling an ambulance all you want, but the fact remains that what happened contradicts your regurgitation of official Swarthmore policies, yet again, or did I miss where Swarthmore released an official statement saying that overwhelmingly inebriated students (with head injuries) would be driven to the emergency room by friends instead of an ambulance being called by the health center staff?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
See the Phoenix story about the alcohol citations surrounding the Mary Lyons Halloween Party in 2004 or 2005. A beligerent drunk was arrested at Worth and transported for an overnight in jail by the Swarthmore police.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh, you mean this</a> article? Because it doesn't say what you said, at all. It says a student was arrested for marijuana possession when he was found micturating on the street. The student at the health center was apparently stumbling away from Worth, got "disorderly" with the cops and given a citation. It says nothing about a student being transported from Worth to jail. In fact, it said the student spent the night in Taylor hospital. Like I said, I've never heard of a Worth to jail transport happening, and apparently neither have you.</p>

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<p>I can't remember ever seeing a boro cop on campus.</p>

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<p>Interested Dad:</p>

<p>In the incident concerning the student who was hit in the head by a table tossed by an inebriated fellow student, I seem to recall from the Phoenix article that the victim lost consciousness and was then aroused and walked to the health service. The student may have then been transported to a hospital for further evaluation. </p>

<p>My concern is the initial response, or lack thereof, focusing on arousing the victim and walking them to the health care service. If this didn't occur, I would like to know. When I spoke with the dean of students Bob Gross (I thought I spoke with Bob Gross-I don't know-maybe I spoke with you ...) I had a general and unsatisfactory discussion concerning how injured students are handled. At no time was the specific student identifited. Accoring to current HIPAA laws passed during the Clinton administration, the patient couldn't be identified even if I had the poor judgement of asking who the student was. By the way, this is a federal law and applies to all states and not just PA. The dean clearly preferred a non-documented and relatively anonymour phone conversation over the scenario of providing a written policy to a concerned parent. Not unlike most organizations I know.</p>

<p>If you know what the formal alcohol policy is for inebriated students please share the source document with the community. I'm sure there are many parents who would like to know. Your comment concerning judging how intoxicated a patient is based on how ambulatory or belligerent is BS. I recall multiple patients I have examined in the ER who registered surprisingly high blood alcohol levels. The most extreme was a very pleasant patient with .460. If Swat is using this layman's approach to determining the degree of alcohol intoxication, it is a dangerous and invalid "protocol".</p>

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<p>Sounds like you have extensive experience in the world of academia. Mine is a much more mundane experience of a so-called elite LAC, medical school, internship, residency, and fellowship. After having run that gauntlet I "escaped" to the world of private practice. Guess I've got a little experience in the world of academia as well ...</p>

<p>I just reread your post at 0840 and you said: "Should she choose Swarthmore, I will gladly continue to work hard and will gratefully write the checks for tuition so that she can have the opportunity to experience a once in a lifetime opportunity of living and learning among some of the finest, most dedicated students in this country, if not the world. "</p>

<p>Perhaps I misinterpreted what you said, but it appears that you are referring to Swat as the place where your D can have this experience. That may certainly be true and I wish her the best of luck. On the other hand there are many high quality institutions where a similar experience could be had. To dismiss may of these other institutions would not be wise. At this point I don't buy the "branding" of the label "Swarthmore" to be any more valuable than other cohort institutions.</p>

<p>I am intrigued by your comment concerning "measuring a person's worth or succcess by what they earn but by how they live their lives". This is a little too fuzzy for a concrete thinker like me. How do you measure "how they live their lives"? What metric do you use?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I seem to recall from the Phoenix article that the victim lost consciousness and was then aroused and walked to the health service.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I know more about the incident than was published in The Phoenix. The girl did not initially think she was hurt. She never lost conciousness or even fell to the ground, although she was stunned by the glancing blow of the table. much like you would be stunned if you were hit in the head by a high inside fastball. With no indication that she was injured, she and a PA and several friends started walking the 175 yards from Sharples to Worth to get checked out. As they walked the girl realized she had a laceration and was bleeding. </p>

<p>Swarthmore security transported her directly from Worth to the hospital for evaluation. I think she got several stitches and was released later that night.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I recall multiple patients I have examined in the ER who registered surprisingly high blood alcohol levels. The most extreme was a very pleasant patient with .460. If Swat is using this layman's approach to determining the degree of alcohol intoxication, it is a dangerous and invalid "protocol".

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So you are suggesting that all students consuming alcohol be transported to the hospital just in case they are walking, talking, and conscious with a BAC of .40?</p>

<p>Any college health service has to use some professional discretion. Well, that is except for the colleges that close their health center on nights and weekends and provide ZERO support or evaluation.</p>

<p>Swarthmore's Health Center is making symptom based determinations whether to keep an intoxicated student at Worth Health Center overnight for observation or to send them to the hospital for observation/treatment. This is exactly the kind of "triage" you want a college infirmary to provide and you want it it to be available nights and weekends. </p>

<p>The alternative is to close the health center at 5:00 pm and leave the students to fend for themselves.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Yes, they do monitor the Public Safety scanners, but they don't come and bust students at the drop of a hat.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Read what I wrote. I did not say that the Swarthmore police respond to every Swat Security call. I said that they respond to every AMBULANCE call. An underage drinking citation from the Swarthmore Police is automatic with every hospital transport at Swarthmore.</p>

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<p>Interested Dad:</p>

<p>Thanks for the clarification on the head laceration. More reassuring than the initial incomplete information.</p>

<p>Concerning the alcohol issue-why not use a breathalyzer to triage the students? Although not as accurate as a blood alcohol level, it can be used to help determine which students need further medical attention. Signs and symptoms in acute alcohol intoxication are notoriously inaccurate. </p>

<p>Do you have the formal Swat policy on intoxicated students at Worth? If you do, please share it with the community.</p>

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<p>I think that the focus on alcohol abuse at S. on this thread is tiresome and really beside the point: S. no doubt has far less alcohol-related problems than a number of its elite cohort and I suspect a lot less than the majority of "flagship state institutions". Why would an, albeit bright and talented, drug/alcohol abuser choose the most academically rigorous, least party-oriented undergraduate institution in the nation for their baccalaureate?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I think that the focus on alcohol abuse at S. on this thread is tiresome and really beside the point: S. no doubt has far less alcohol-related problems than a number of its elite cohort and I suspect a lot less than the majority of "flagship state institutions". Why would an, albeit bright and talented, drug/alcohol abuser choose the most academically rigorous, least party-oriented undergraduate institution in the nation for their baccalaureate?

[/quote]

I don't know what's up with all these parents and their wild, uninformed speculation, but I can tell you I was up to my eyeballs in booze by the time my senior year rolled around (beer at seminar break... sure, why not). I sincerely doubt Swarthmore is the least party-oriented undergraduate institution in the nation or anywhere close to it. The lameness of the Swarthmore party scene is in no way related to a lack of booze or opportunities for drunkenness. I imagine it's somewhere in the middle of the road for elite LACs in terms of alcohol consumption per student. And I'm all for that, because I think college students should get plastered from time to time if they want. It's not a big deal, and it's a great time to enjoy it before responsibility and getting old set in and rob you of the pleasure of getting wildly inebriated.</p>

<p>As to the question, though, of why drug and alcohol abusers would choose Swarthmore? Why not? If you're a top student who is motivated by academics and sold on the hype and name brand recognition of Swarthmore, and you just happen to like to get down from time to time, then why isn't Swarthmore a viable option? Never mind the enormous section of the population you neglect by posing this question: those who go to college and then become drug and alcohol abusers. I think a lot of the party-goers at Swarthmore fit that description.</p>

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<p>I reiterate, alcohol consumption seems a rather narrow (and tedious) focus for a thread highlighting students'/alum's takes on the college.</p>

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<p>starch,</p>

<p>Although I seriously doubt that you did not understand my statement that I do not measure a person’s worth by what they earn, but by how they live their lives, I’ll, nevertheless, bite. </p>

<p>I happen to value personal integrity more than material acquisitions. I have tried to teach my children to follow their dreams, whatever those dreams may be, but always being mindful and considerate of others. Since you claim to have a problem with abstract thinking, I will use an example to which you can perhaps relate. </p>

<p>Just like you, my father was a doctor. He devoted his life to helping others and taking care of many, quite often without remuneration. He was not only extremely smart but also gifted as a diagnostitian. We had a comfortable lifestyle but not as lavish as some of his professional peers. This was a conscious choice of where he channeled his efforts. To me his acts of kindness and dedication, not just to his family but to others, or how he lived his life, were a far greater legacy and measure of success than anything material he may have accumulated during his lifetime....</p>

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<p>Dad2,</p>

<p>My sentiments exactly. I could not agree with you more! </p>

<p>Frankly, the whole alcohol obsession is sophomoric. Surely, there must be other complaints of far greater consequence or more important things that need improvement. How about sharing those?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I imagine it's somewhere in the middle of the road for elite LACs in terms of alcohol consumption per student.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Your imagination would lead you astray. There are nationally administered surveys about alcohol consumption used by virtually every college, including the 31 elite college members of COFHE.</p>

<p>All colleges collect information about binge drinking rates as extensively published in the Harvard School of Public Health national surveys on college drinking:</p>

<p>Swarthmore's surveys binge drinking rates have historically been at the low end of the scale, similar to the women's colleges (such as Smith) and west coast schools (such as Pomona) in the low 30% range. The national average is 44%. There are "top" New England liberal arts colleges well above the national averages in the low to mid 50% range.</p>

<p>As you correctly point out, a low binge drinking rate does not mean that students do not drink or that alcohol is not readily available. What it means is that on average there is a smaller percentage of students drinking to excess at Swarthmore than at some of its competitors. </p>

<p>The quality of life for a low to moderate drinker is very different at a school where only 30% of students have been "binge drinking" in a two week period and 50% to 60% of the students. These quality of life indicators are very clear in the Harvard studies comparing low binge drinking schools to high binge drinking schools.</p>