Students Paying More and Getting Less, Study Says (New York Times)

Parents Forum
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<p>"Part of this disconnect is that college resembles health care in which there is a third-party payer. Unfortunately, with college that third party is a loan that must be repaid by the student. For most students, that gap loan isn't quite real - signing up to pay $6K isn't much different than $16K or even $26K, since all the pain is in the future" </p>

<p>M. Dooley, That's a well phrased expression of the ethical disconnect I was referring to in the earlier posting. And unfortunate that some in academe hold the perception that if the student signs up for 16k or 26k or more it's all the better. </p>

<p>Because the consequences of this kind of act can be transferred to the students and families in their not too distant future, it frees academe from having to ethically reconcile what this type of a system has done to peoples lives. Yes, of course there are ethical people on faculty and student services who do comment, or try to advise students with an intent which serves the students and families best interests. </p>

<p>But systemically academe lost its moral coordinates long ago insofar as the cost to benefit balance, and accordingly also lost the essential moral responsibility and comprehension that academe's potential adverse effect on a student's life and that of their family isn't canceled when the student gets a piece of paper and gets to wear some outdated medieval clothing. </p>

<p>As a result of this abrogation of responsibility and ethical disconnect academe may lose its status as a entity which serves and betters society and students and families often lose the promise of bettering their lives. The only people who have really benefited from the situation are a group which never should have been allowed to push their way into academe in the first place. </p>

<p>Problem is that they are there, and the effects of their interests and agenda have been a seminal factor in the escalation of costs, and the reduction of the credibility of academe. And they may have come much closer to wrecking academe than many realize. If they do succeed in doing so, they'll go home with billions and this country will lose an essential component of its future well being.</p>

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<p>Other than advising, those are reverse Robin Hood schemes, taking from those with less to subsidize those with more. </p>

<p>Study abroad primarily benefits the more affluent students who are its main users.</p>

<p>Honors programs benefit the minority of honors students, which may or may not be something the majority of non-honors students would like to pay more for. Arguably the honors students, who are enrolled in a different and more valuable degree program (one which shares many courses, but says different things on the transcripts), should be paying more, and the cost should be shared with the non-honors students only to the extent that they can switch to the honors program once enrolled. </p>

<p>re: the development office, if it's a profit center for the university it should REDUCE tuition or at least never increase it. If it's not a profit center, that raises the question of why it exists.</p>

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<p>If Honors students are made to pay more, not less (since most of them have Merit Scholarships, they are paying considerably less than others), then state schools will never see top students, they will go to elite schools instead. Than Honors will not be needed. Who will loose the most? Not the top students, but others. If this is the goal, then lets push to implement it.</p>

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<p>Given the lack of detailed information in the article, it is hard to see exactly where the money is going in terms of 'instruction' versus 'administration and support'. What counts as money going to instruction? money going to admin and support? </p>

<p>I gave some examples that might be considered 'administration and support' that had a more student-centered feel to them and impacted students in a more direct way, in contrast to the idea that there was an increase in the number of 'paper pusher' administrators that really had less of a direct impact on students. I am sure there was also an increase in the latter as well.</p>

<p>With regards to your complaint that student abroad programs benefit only the more affluent students, I do know that you can get financial aid for such programs. It is unclear to me whether this program benefits affluent students more than students of lower socioeconomic class--it could be true, but there is no data that I have seen about this. </p>

<p>What I do know anecdotally about this program is that the majority of students who participate have never been out of the country before. It is not as though it serves those students who vacation in European and the Caribbean during the summer or spring break, which makes me suspect that it does serve those students who don't have the means to travel widely. Any program which helps students to think more multiculturally and globally is a benefit.</p>

<p>MiamiDAP is absolutely right about the honors students. If we don't make it attractive for top students to come to in-state universities, then they will go elsewhere. Another consequence not mentioned would be the 'brain drain' from our own state, as these top student leave our state and area of the country to be educated elsewhere, and then, more likely than not, getting jobs in those areas after graduation. It is a benefit for all in the state to keep top students at home.</p>

<p>I don't see why the success of the Development Office should be measured in terms of reducing tuition. This office is involved with raising money for scholarships, endowed chairs, new buildings etc. Buildings don't get built with state money alone; we do need some private money as well. So if the development office secures over a million dollars of private money so a new arts center can be completed, one that will house the music, art, and theatre programs here, as well as concert halls and theaters that that serve the general public, then it is not cost-effective because it hasn't reduced tuition? </p>

<p>The last example as well as the discussion of honor programs really shows that universities are public investments for the public good, serving more than just the individual needs of a particular student. If we just want to treat universities as local job training centers, where we need minimal investment geared only toward vocational instruction, I think the quality of life for many in the state outside the university would decline as well.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
It is unclear to me whether [study abroad] program benefits affluent students more than students of lower socioeconomic class

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</p>

<p>Racial data are available as a proxy, and are consistent with a wealth-correlated program. Half of US students going abroad are white females, over 80 percent are white, and there are relatively few minorities compared to their share of enrollment. The race and gender breakdown has been extremely stable for over a decade, even as the number of study abroad students has more than doubled and the popularity of destination countries has varied.</p>

<p>U.S</a>. Study Abroad Student Profile
<a href="http://www.iienetwork.org/file_depot/0-10000000/0-10000/1710/folder/62450/IIE+Study+Abroad+White+Paper+I.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.iienetwork.org/file_depot/0-10000000/0-10000/1710/folder/62450/IIE+Study+Abroad+White+Paper+I.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
What I do know anecdotally about this program is that the majority of students who participate have never been out of the country before.

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</p>

<p>Students who rely on an off campus job during the semester are rarely in a position to study abroad. They lose the stateside job, can't get an equivalent abroad, and the school's financial aid, if it is available for study abroad, is very limited in its ability to make up the difference. This already tends to weed out poorer students from the mix. </p>

<p>One needs a certain degree of liberty to take what is (no matter its academic content) a semester-long vacation in the middle of one's studies. Such liberty usually comes from a relative absence of financial constraints compared to the students who can't take the time out because they're working, or have to finish their grad school requirements in eight semesters and can't afford a ninth. The latter problem is one reason why the super-endowment schools were pushing to have a funded ADDITIONAL year abroad.</p>

<p>
[quote]
MiamiDAP is absolutely right about the honors students. If we don't make it attractive for top students to come to in-state universities, then they will go elsewhere.

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</p>

<p>The point was that any inducement in the form of Honors comes at the expense of those who don't receive them. That's especially true if honors are awarded at the point of admission (a residential Honors College, a Brilliant Scholars Program with its own seminars) as part of a two-tier system, and it's literally true if regular students' tuition fees pay toward the Honors Program.</p>

<p>The new US president is an example of this, by the way. That honors degrees exist at Columbia devalues Obama's degree, because saying on his resume that he graduated but without any mention of Latin honors makes it obvious that he finished in the bottom half of the class.</p>

<p>Suggesting that Honors Progams are needed to prevent "brain drain" is speculative, and opposite to the experience of foreign nations. It could just as well be that by providing enhanced education to the top X percent of population, you provide them with more economic options out of state (or outside of India, China, Russia, Ireland). There are lots of things a state could do to stem brain drain and it's not clear at all that creating a regressive tax in the form of an Honors Programs is a useful way of doing that.</p>

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<p>siserune,
I can only tell you about my D, which is making this anecdotal, instead of statistical statement. She would not consider state colleges if they did not offer Honors programs and Merit $. She would have applied to ivy's and other very top. Why would anyone at the top of the graduating class go to state school? I do not know. In my D's case, it was definately Honors and other big opportunities, including huge Merit $, that were available only to the very top students. Also, from another side, seeing how hard she had worked and how much she has sacrified for her success, making me to believe that the current system encourages this type of attitude towards personal responsibilities, which I fully support. But as I pointed above, if it is not there, not biggy for hard working people, they will find another place that will appreciate their efforts.</p>

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<p>Thanks for some very informative posts here. </p>

<p>The tuition is 50 times greater than it was 30 years ago at the public University I attended. A student 30 years ago could have worked 4 weeks at a summer job at minimum wage and have paid the entire tuition out of that money. Now at the same place a student would have to work 2 years at minimum wage to cover the cost of one year of tuition.</p>

<p>Sometimes when looking at the fix we are in right now I feel like WIlford Brimley's character in The Thing when he found there was no possible solution.</p>

<p>But positive steps have been taken and we will just have to keep trying. NY AG Andrew Cuomo, the groups forming the Coalition for Better Student Lons, and many key political figures in Washington have reigned in the predatory lenders to some extent. Sadly, with the credit scenario we currently face there is a lack of capital from honest lenders to fund reasonable college loans.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
She would not consider state colleges if they did not offer .... Honors and other big opportunities, including huge Merit $, that were available only to the very top students.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It may be a great deal for those who qualify. </p>

<p>It is probably not a great deal for the state to disproportionately heap resources on those likeliest to export them out of state.</p>

<p>It is a very questionable deal for the other 90+ percent of enrolled students not in the honors program, if they both subsidize the program through their tuition and have their degrees devalued as a result.</p>

<p>How this breaks down for the taxpayers practically and ethically is also open to debate.
If the university is a social service, it should be providing education without going out of its way to advance the cause of social stratification. It serves no known (defensible) societal purpose for public universities to artificially "brand" some graduates as better than others, or to spend public treasure to that end.</p>

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<p>Your last comment, that honors programs serve no known defensible societal purpose, is really open to question.</p>

<p>Consider the following article about 'brain drain' in the South:</p>

<p>Moving</a> On: State Policies to Address Academic Brain Drain in the South</p>

<p>It suggests that brain drain makes states less economically competitive and how honors programs are implemented as part of the solution. So there are probably good reasons for these programs and I would question your skepticism about these programs in relation to this particular problem. </p>

<p>Similarly, while I concede that many students with full time jobs are not likely to participate in Study Abroad Programs, you should realize that the Study Abroad office is also responsible for bringing international students to our institution for their 'study abroad' term. As I said, our students can have very limited experience out of state/region/country, and any program that can address this provincialism is a good thing. So the student with the full time job can't go abroad, but at least they can benefit from being in a class with an international student on their study abroad program. In addition, those students who return from their time abroad add another dimension to the classroom as they bring back a broadened world view to the classroom.</p>

<p>In addition, given that states competing with each other to attract foreign business, I would think it would be an advantage for our state institution to have a group of undergraduate or graduate business majors to study abroad for a term or so.</p>

<p>It's too simplistic to suggest that honors programs, study abroad etc., exacerbate social stratification. Elimination of these programs could also be argued to do the same thing.</p>

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<p>The article makes it clear that these programs are political window dressing with no known effect on brain drain. That should be obvious for the reasons I mentioned, but here is how the authors put it:</p>

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</p>

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<p>But the article does state that merit aid does keep students in-state for school. So we have a positive evidence here that these programs do keep students in state at this point-from high school to college. We just don't have the evidence of what happens after graduation--and for all we know, these students are staying in-state.</p>

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<p>We were talking about honors programs and their justifiability, not merit aid. </p>

<p>I don't have much to say about the latter, but did find the following amusement online. Draw your own conclusions about the net positive or negative effect on statewide IQ:</p>

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</p>

<p>SSRN-The</a> Effects of State-Sponsored Merit Scholarships on Course Selection and Major Choice in College by Christopher Cornwell, Kyung Lee, David Mustard</p>

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<p>siserune,
You are missing the point that Honors and Merit $$ go hand-in-hand. The minute, student falls of a vagon of Honors, he looses most if not all of the Merit $$.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
re: the development office, if it's a profit center for the university it should REDUCE tuition or at least never increase it. If it's not a profit center, that raises the question of why it exists.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I wonder if it works to apply a "profit" model to an office that is charged with raising long-term restricted gifts for endowment and capital projects at a non-profit institution. </p>

<p>Do you mean, rather, that we should ask whether the office raises more money for the institution than the office expends? That's certainly true--but is this really in question? I would expect any development office which failed to bring in enough gifts to cover its own costs would raise huge red flags. However, in this event, I think it far more likely (and better advice) to suggest they change the way they operate, not eliminate the office altogether.</p>

<p>A development office not bringing in money would be a troubling situation, but in general there are a lot of cases where it's inappropriate to evaluate an individual program or office in terms of its revenue vs. expenditure. Higher education is not in the business of making money, and there are many cases where a University will give ongoing support to an "unprofitable" office or program without concern that it can pay its own way. Some things are important and worth doing, even if it costs a lot and must be subsidized by other funds from University operations. It's one of ways in which higher ed is valuable to society--it will tackle things that are too "unprofitable" or have too long-term a payoff for private industry to be interested.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
You are missing the point that Honors and Merit $$ go hand-in-hand.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The point was whether it's justifiable to have non-Honors students' tuition fees subsidize the Honors program. Asking students to pay for a program that penalizes them (by devaluing their degrees and cannibalizing resources that would have been theirs) is regressive. If merit-based honors scholarships are awarded from the university budget or a state education budget in a way that competes with (and subtracts from) funding to the non-honors students, the same argument applies. Otherwise, merit aid is a separate issue, and there are certainly programs that award merit aid without any Honors designation, such as the Georgia HOPE scholarship that helpfully increases the number of Education majors.</p>

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<p>Well, it works both ways. At our school, in certain lower level courses, courses that typically do not enroll honors student, there are mandatory sessions with tutors. Someone has to pay for these tutors, and students in these courses do not pay any extra for having those mandatory one-on-one sessions as part of the course. So you could say that honors students are then subsidizing these tutoring sessions.</p>

<p>Or how about this--music department instructors have very low credit hour production, because, given what they teach, they cannot do very large lecture courses, or even small seminars. Sometimes it involves only 1 or 2 students. These students also do not pay extra for their courses. So in some sense, we are subsidizing these students.</p>

<p>If you want, you could try to make only those students who use the extras pay for it. Some introductory science courses might involve very few trips to the library, while an upper level literature course might involve extensive library research. So those intro bio students are really subsidizing the upper level lit majors use of the library, since they all pay the same amount for the course and one uses an expensive service more than another.</p>

<p>I don't see how having an honors program devalues a non-honors degree. It is still possible for a student who was not accepted to a certain honors program as a freshman to get a departmental major honors degree, once they declare their major, maintain a certain GPA and do the honors level course work.</p>

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<p>It doesn't work both ways. The regular students can't take the honors program seminars, but the honors matriculants can take the regular courses. More importantly, the regular students can't get a degree from the Honors College and in some universities they can't live in the Honors Housing. They are paying for a separate-but-unequal status within the institution.</p>

<p>It could make sense for a university that has a Conservatory and an Agricultural School and an undergraduate Business School to differentiate between them and limit the ability of students in one program to use the resources of another. There are legitimate reasons for this, such as efficiently allocating scarce and expensive resources to train professionals.</p>

<p>But there is no such rationale for splitting the university into a Smart College and a Dumb College. Being smart (or Honored) is not a profession, and universities should not be offering certificates in it.</p>

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<p>If universities should do anything, they should do what they can to promote those who are high academic achievers and are intellectually curious, for these students will be future scientists, literary critics, historians, etc. I see great value in this.</p>

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<p>That's a new and much broader topic, as is merit aid. The much more specific item that we've been talking about is (from your posting #8 above): </p>

<p>...the claim that non-Honors students (who are specifically excluded from courses, housing, scholarships, jobs and degrees offered by Honors Programs at their universities) should celebrate the opportunity to pay higher tuition so as to subsidize those programs.</p>

<p>That's quite a claim. To credit it one would have to believe that the Honors students are so.... honorable... that just having them around is a billable service the university provides to the rest of the students.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
It doesn't work both ways. The regular students can't take the honors program seminars, but the honors matriculants can take the regular courses. More importantly, the regular students can't get a degree from the Honors College and in some universities they can't live in the Honors Housing. They are paying for a separate-but-unequal status within the institution.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't see this as significantly different from the college system set up in some large institutions. Students enroll in distinctly different (and sometimes unequal) divisions; for example, the school of business vs. the school of fine arts. These schools have different requirements and sometimes different levels of selectivity. Students have limited or nonexistent access to courses and special services set up for students enrolled in these other schools. </p>

<p>Honors students can have value to other students if their presence raises the institution's profile to recruiters and graduate schools, and helps attract & retain better faculty. </p>

<p>Do you expect that students resent any program that doesn't benefit them directly?</p>