<p>I would like to point out at least to one benefit that Honors student provide. They unofficially involved in tutoring, other kids ask them questions. Actually, my D. was hired by professor because he noticed that she successfully has been answering a lot of other kids questions. Well, she is getting minimum wage (no complains, very happy with her job). She gets 10 - 20 kids during her official session. How about if all these kids will go to professor who by far is not on minimum wage? Would not he will have to increase his hours? If you combine all the classes at school and remove Honors student from it, would not it result in higher tuition for evebody? As I mentioned before, if it was not for Merit $$, Honors, and a lot of other privileges for top students, it is very likely that most of them will not go to State schools. In addition, some kids feel intimidated and are more comfortable asking another student rather than prof.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't see this as significantly different from the college system set up in some large institutions. Students enroll in distinctly different (and sometimes unequal) divisions; for example, the school of business vs. the school of fine arts.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It's absolutely different. It is never the case outside of honors programs that a university includes as two of its divisions School A and School B, where:</p>
<ul>
<li>School A students enjoy all courses, programs and university offerings available to School B students;</li>
<li>School A students also have extra offerings (courses, internships etc) NOT available to School B students;</li>
<li>School A students receive extra value-adding designations on their degrees (not available at School B), even if they earn the same grades in the same courses;</li>
<li>School A students pay less than School B students in tuition;</li>
<li>School B students actually subsidize School A students (some of their B tuition goes to reduce the cost for school A)</li>
</ul>
<p>At worst, the uber- and unter-divisions have EQUAL cost, as when state flagships cost the same as the lesser campuses. In no place, other than schools with an Honors Program, do the losers subsidize the winners.</p>
<p>I am not sure it is correct to say that the education of honors students are subsidized by non-honors students.</p>
<p>Realize that at most in-state universities, every student is being subsidized to some extent. Tuition simply does not cover the entire cost to educate a student.</p>
<p>To the extent that it costs more to educate the honors students, your claim would be that the state provides more subsidy to the honors student than the students not in the honors program, if they both pay equal tuition.</p>
<p>I guess your claim then would be that this is not fair. But I don't still don't understand why. These students have been rewarded for their academic achievements and their particular interests by being admitted to a special academic program, one which may cost more without any greater cost to them, but often requires an even greater workload (many programs require a senior thesis, for example). How is it is not fair to reward academic merit/interest in the form of a special program, rather than, say, an academic scholarship? Or do you not think that academic scholarships are fair, either?</p>
<p>
[quote]
I am not sure it is correct to say that the education of honors students are subsidized by non-honors students. .... every student is being subsidized to some extent. Tuition simply does not cover the entire cost to educate a student.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And here is how it works in reality.</p>
<p>
[quote=WKU University Senate Minutes, 3/4/2008]
[university President] Ransdell is communicating with Frankfort that we will not be using revenue from tuition increases to offset the budget cuts. He feels that whatever tuition increases we have should be used for<a href="1">/b</a> utilities and other fixed cost increases; (2) compensation for faculty and staff; (3) funding the strategic plan priorities, especially **increasing merit-based academic scholarship capacity<a href="37/54%20Math%20and%20Science%20Academy%20seniors%20will%20be%20staying%20at%20WKU">/b</a>, the extended campuses (Elizabethtown and Owensboro), the library, **the honors college, and study abroad.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Here's the response from that school's Student Government Association President, who calculated the effect of the Honors College funding on tuition:</p>
<p>
[quote]
There will be a 9 percent tuition increase after today's Board of Regents meeting, although a lower increase was proposed. .....
[SGA President] Jeanne Johnson ... said she doesn't agree $370,000 should be allocated to the Honors College because it only benefits 900 students, and without the allocation, there would only be an 8.2 percent increase.</p>
<p>Ransdell said the Honors College brings the best students in Kentucky to Western, and the money is necessary for the growth of the program.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Notice that the university president doesn't attempt to sugarcoat the cost by claiming that all students are subsidized and are just receiving different degrees of gift. He lays it out quite clearly, and the students seem to grasp equally clearly that their tuition is funding the honors program.</p>
<p>Board</a> of Regents approve 9 percent tuition increase - Breaking News</p>
<p>That argument is misleading. </p>
<p>The form of your argument goes like this. Program X costs Y dollars. Program X serves a minority of students. If we eliminate Program X, we can reduce tuition for students in general. Therefore, students in general are subsidizing Program X for a minority of students.</p>
<p>If you eliminate any program, you will save money and thus could reduce tuition. However, there are some programs, such as English or mathematics, that we feel are so essential to the mission of the university that they cannot be eliminated. </p>
<p>However, there are some programs at a university that may not be considered so essential. For example, WKU has programs in geography, cartography, and textiles (at least from the little web research that I have done). I chose these programs because they are not offered at my university, yet we are accredited, grant degrees, have students matriculate into graduate school, etc. Also, for the sake of argument, lets say that 900 students (of any major, to include students who do these classes for electives etc.) in any year take classes in these programs and the total cost of these programs amounts to $370,000, the same as the Honors program. </p>
<p>Under our hypothetical situation, eliminating these programs would have the same effect as eliminating the Honors program in terms of saving tuition dollars. It would also affect the same numbers of students. Would you say that WKU students in general are subsidizing students who are enrolled in these programs?</p>
<p>Of course, your counterargument has always been that any student could take classes in geography, cartography, textiles, etc, while only certain students can take classes in the Honors program. But the fact remains that only 900 students want to enroll in those geography, cartography, textile etc. classesthey open to all, but only 900 chose to do so. The Honors program is not necessarily open to all students in the university, since there are additional requirements that must be met, but still, 900 students wish to be part of that program and take classes in that program. In other words, the same number of students want program X as program Y, irrespective of whether or not these programs are open to all students.</p>
<p>Which 900 students do you serve? Each university can decide for itself what its want to do. Some may decide to eliminate the Honors program, some may decide to eliminate the geography, cartography, textiles etc. programs, and some may decide to eliminate no programs and raise tuition a bit more.</p>
<p>But it is simply mistaken to single out the Honors program in this way. There are many programs, outside of Honors, that serve a minority of students, add a cost to the University budget, and could be eliminated without endangering accreditation etc.</p>
<p>Despite higher than average per-pupil expenditures, American 8th graders ranked 19th out of 38 countries on the most recent international mathematics comparison, while On the most recent Program for International Student Assessment combined reading literacy scale tests, American 15-year olds scored near the average. Of the 27 countries that participated, Canadian, Finish, and New Zealand students had the highest scores.</p>