Students: Please start taking Music Theory Classes

College Majors Musical Theater Major
1

<p>Hi</p>

<p>I have written on the importance of studying music theory before, but feel it is time to renew the subject. It is often not made a priority, or even spoken about much on these boards.</p>

<p>I cannot stress the importance of students who are auditioning for a Musical Theatre degree to study as much Music Theory as possible before they audition. Many colleges will give you a Music Theory test during the process of auditioning for them. It is usually for placement. Almost all of them will require you take music theory the first year or two of your BFA program if you are accepted. (If they don't, I suggest you don't consider attending that school.)</p>

<p>Singers need to be good musicians. Many young singers who have not studied an instrument are often very bad musicians. You will be at a disadvantage when you enter college if you do not at least have the basics of music theory under your belt. Some colleges will put you in the same Music Theory Class as their Music Majors. You will be sitting with people who have played the piano, or another instrument, for 10 years. The class will move very fast.</p>

<p>My very best advise for you is to take piano lessons if you do not already. You will kill two birds with one stone. You will NEED to know how to play the piano as a performer, and you will learn the basics of theory at the same time. You will also probably be required to take piano class in college as well.</p>

<p>It is incredible to me when I work BFA Majors who have GRADUATED from college who still cannot read music. Frankly, I don't know how that is possible, but it is a situation I face more than you would think.... singers who are not properly trained musicians.</p>

<p>For example.....I know that Point Park is supposed to have a great program... but I coach one of their graduates (who has been in national tours) who has NO idea of how music is notated. She can't pick out a melody on the piano from a sheet of music. She can't sightread a note. She has no idea what I am talking about when I ask her about the music. She learns the music by rote... I make tapes for her. She is very talented. Somehow she made it out of Point Park with a BFA in MT. </p>

<p>Playing the piano and knowing how to read music will be a vital part of your future as a professional performer. Start now. If you are a senior you have a whole year. It is certainly not too late. I graduated with a BFA myself from SUNY Fredonia. The fact that I read music very well and play the piano very well has made a huge difference in my professional career.</p>

2

<p>The above comments are important ones. In addition, many schools give music theory placement exams to matriculating freshmen to determine class placement and whether remediation in music theory is necessary for the student to be able to successfully participate in classes. My daughter just completed her exam about 2 weeks ago and had no idea it would be required until she received the email containing the questions.</p>

3

<p>We do a bit of theory at school, my voice teacher and I do solfege which i like, and i'm taking a music theory class this year!</p>

4

<p>I'd just like to say that I too am baffled and confused by people who call themselves "musicians" and cannot read music. I have taken piano for 9 years and took AP music Theory last year, and it has been to no end helpful to me in my voice lessons and singing in general. I recommend that everyone take it!</p>

5

<p>I agree with this. My son started taking music theory classes last year, but has also studied trumpet for six years and can read music. He's made the all-state chorus for two years, which always includes a segment on sight-reading. This helps tremendously when trying to learn new music quickly.</p>

6

<p>You don't need to tell me twice. (: I'm already signed up for Intro to and AP Music Theory for the coming school year. As for piano, well, I've been trying to teach myself- can anyone recommend a book or something that will help me, something like Piano for Dummies?</p>

7

<p>This is so important. I wish someone would have told me this a few years ago! I just started taking piano, this is the summer before my freshman year in college...</p>

8

<p>colegePLEASE, I wouldn't stress about this if I were you. If you are going into an MT program at college, you will likely be taking piano as part of your course work. Would it have been nice to have already had five years of piano instruction under your belt when you auditioned? Sure it would. But you didn't, and now you will learn what you need to. Not every student can go into auditions/a program with every single skill he or she will need. Best of luck.</p>

9

<p>I would not stress about it either. While it would have been nice to have been skilled in piano prior to entering a BFA program, many who are admitted have no piano skills and these will be taught at college and you will be placed in a class that doesn't assume you already can play piano. I'm glad you have started. Many applicants have skills that are strengths and some that are weaker. Some are triple threats and can play piano. But it is not required to be strong in everything. It helps but it not entirely necessary. Also, I believe you are not entering a BFA and are hoping to transfer into one next year. In that regard, you will have ONE full year of piano under your belt before you enter a BFA and will be ahead.</p>

10

<p>I respect everyone's opinion on this subject, but I couldn't disagree more with the last few posts. </p>

<p>My degree is in Musical Theatre and I have actually gone through a four year program. Again, my degree is from SUNY Fredonia which has a GREAT music department.</p>

<p>If you think these first year piano classes are easy for someone who knows nothing, you couldn't be more wrong. Learning to play the piano, even Mary Had a Little Lamb, requires that you practice for at least an hour everyday. I assure you they expect much more out of you than Mary Had A Little Lamb. And they move fast. They expect you have at least an hour a day to practise...which...ps..... you do not. If you can avoid that scenario DO IT. Start now.</p>

<p>As far as music theory class goes, it is worse. The MT students in my class were put in with Music Majors. M-F 9am. By the end of the second week.... 75 percent of the musical theatre kids were totally and utterly lost. It also included sight singing which is another nightmare if you don't have any idea of how to read music.</p>

<p>Do not live under the assumption that they are going to coddle MT kids. They aren't. It is tough and it is hard.</p>

<p>Again, no disrespect....To advise "the college will teach you the first year what you need to know about piano and theory so don't worry about" is not helpful. In my opinion, taking piano and studying theory is as important or MORE important than taking singing lessons before college. They will know at the audition what your vocal potential is. They WILL be able to teach you how to sing easier than you will get through Music Theory and Piano without knowing anything.</p>

<p>Let me put it this way... They accepted 18 students into the Musical Theatre program my first year. After four years....I was one of THREE people that graduated out of the 18. 90 percent of the reason the other 15 did not finish was not because they couldn't sing, it was because they failed out of theory and piano.</p>

<p>You don't have to be able to play a Chopin Nocturne, but you better know something.</p>

11

<p>I think that the expectations of what MT kids will be able to do in their freshman year vary from school to school. Some schools have seperate classes for MT kids in terms of theory and piano, some do not. Some give placement exams and have "remedial" courses for students with little to no piano or Music Theory background.</p>

<p>If you are in the process of applying to schools, look to see what kinds of requirements the different schools have for piano and music theory. This will give you a sense of what the entering expectations are at each school. Also, get started taking piano and/ or music theory if you have the money and time. This will only help you in the long run. </p>

<p>If you have already been admitted to a BFA program and are starting in the fall, you have a lot to worry about, and starting piano lessons at home three weeks before the start of the semester is not going to help you much. Do, expect that if you have little to no piano or music theory background that you will have to put in a lot of time on those courses (actually, even if you do have the background you will have to put in the practice time.... many schools will place you in the level piano and music theory that will challange you to learn more).</p>

<p>If you are a younger student early in the process, take the time to develop music skills now. There are even some websites that will teach basic music threory. Many schools offer AP music theory (although this course will be tough for someone with little to no music reading experience)... look to see if a college in your town will allow you to enroll in an intro to reading music course, piano class, take private piano lessons. College music students are often looking to take on private students, and many will even tutor students in music theory.</p>

<p>Do not worry, because worrying doesn't help anything. Consider where you are at in the process of applying to schools, and take action that makes sense for you based upon financial and time resources. </p>

<p>Music is a language, and learning any new language will take hard work and discipline, so don't expect it to be cake, but if you apply yourself with the same dilligence that you apply yourself to your singing, dancing, and acting training (and hopefully you academic course work) you will be able to pull through and learn.</p>

12

<p>TOM,
Just to clarify my position....I have agreed with your many threads and posts on this topic every time. I also think it is very very important to learn piano and music theory in this field. I recommend that to all the students whom I advise. </p>

<p>However, the student above named "collegePlease" has already graduated high school without these skills and is entering college (not a BFA in MT) hoping to transfer to a MT program next year and is taking your (mine and others') to study piano and music theory. What some of us are saying is that he can't fret about what he should have done sooner. It is past that point but at least he is hearing the wisdom of such study and has begun and with the hopes of transferring into musical theater, where he will continue those studies. I certainly wasn' t saying it is not important to study piano or music theory because as I have stated here and elsewhere on this forum, I DO think it is very important. I was just encouraging this student to not fret about what he didn't do in the past as long as he starts now, which he is doing. That's a good thing. </p>

<p>You put the following in quotation marks: ""the college will teach you the first year what you need to know about piano and theory so don't worry about," but I do not see that statement in my post, nor in NotMamaRose's post. It really should not be in quotes as it is NOT a quote and in fact, is not what I think either. I think students should come in with these skills and will be at a disadvantage if starting out as a beginner. However, I do know kids in MT who have no prior piano training and thus they begin in college. Ideally, they would have it prior to college. Likewise, I know many who enter BFA in MT programs who have NO prior dance training and again, they are at a disadvanatage and must start at a beginner level in college. Some schools will have placement exams and place students accordingly. Some don't. Some value prior piano training to be admitted, and some are willing to take students with no prior piano training. </p>

<p>You certainly don't have to convince me the importance of music theory and piano and musicianship for someone in this field. My child has studied both her entire life and is earning good money now utilizing these skills. It has been a real boost to her in this field. </p>

<p>Also, if 15 people out of 18 failed in a BFA program, that is specific to that program. I don't see that kind of rate at my D's BFA program, nor at many other programs. At my D's program, they have to study piano and music theory for two years. A few students, like my D, place out. I haven't heard of anyone flunking the BFA program.</p>

13

<p>Tom, I don't think that I or Soozievt or anyone was saying, breezily, "Oh, don't worry about knowing music theory and piano. They are not important." What I meant to say (and perhaps did not communicate adequately) is that kids who are now entering their senior years of high school and have not taken piano (or another instrument) or music theory shouldn't freak out at this point. Certainly, students reading this board who have several years before college should seriously consider beginning piano and music theory classes NOW. No question about it. (My own D, who only had limited exposure to music theory previously, has been working with a private music theory teacher/tutor this summer, one on one, which shows you that she and I <em>do</em> get the importance of what you are saying! Honest!! :))
I am surprised, however, that so many students in your BFA program ended up dropping out because they were defeated by music theory, not because I do not recognize that music theory is challenging, but because I have never heard mention on this board or elsewhere about other prestigious programs (such as those at Michigan, NYU, CMU) having similar rates of attrition/flunking out among MTers due to music theory. Having only three kids out of the original 18 graduate -- mostly due to music theory -- is, well, shocking! Can anyone else out there comment on this? I would be interested in knowing more, and I am sure other people on this board would be, as well.
Also, Tom, you said "In my opinion, taking piano and studying theory is as important or MORE important than taking singing lessons before college," because a good program can teach you to sing more easily than they can teach music theory. That is no doubt true. But first, these kids have to get accepted into the program at all, and I daresay that <em>most</em> programs will judge a candidate more based on whether he or she can sing well than they will on accomplishment in music theory! (Again, I get that, ideally, students should come into their auditions and programs with BOTH/all three.) That said, again, there is no question but that kids who are planning to audition for MT programs should take piano and music theory before they audition, if it is at all possible. (And I hope I did a less bumbling job of expressing my uninformed opinions this time!! :))</p>

14

<p>NMR, I also agree that admittance to a BFA in MT program is going to rely MORE on the singing audition than the piano and music theory skills (which are very important and a big plus if a student has them). They may be able to teach you to sing but you better be pretty good at singing to get in. I do not agree with Tom that taking piano and studying theory is more important than singing lessons prior to college. However, they are important and beneficial.</p>

<p>Example....U of Michigan is surely one of the very well regarded and well known programs in this field. They have a piano placement as part of the audition but for placement purposes only and they do accept students with very rudimentary piano or theory skills. Being good at piano and theory and better at it than at singing is not going to get you in. My daughter didn't get in there. She did the piano placement and placed into the fifth college course level and thus placed out of the requirements for the major. Surely, that did not put her into the admit pile. She got into plenty of other BFA programs and has won singing awards on the state and national level and so I think it suffices to say she has some singing skills. The piano skills did not get her into college. What the piano skills and theory skills have done is to make her very skilled in that area which only enhances her voice studies and the study of MT (not to mention all the employment offers at a very good rate of pay for someone so young, and on a professional level). These skills are very beneficial to have. But they are not the MAIN skills that will get you admitted to a BFA program. They are important skills that will help you to succeed....NO question, in Musical Theater, both in college and beyond. </p>

<p>I also have not heard mention of presitigious BFA in MT programs having a flunk out rate like Tom describes at SUNY Fredonia but perhaps the levels of students differ from program to program, I truly do not know. The standards of achievement to get into some of the prestigious programs is high and perhaps the work ethic that goes with that, has helped retain the students and they are not flunking out. That is just a supposition, however.</p>

15

<p>Thank you for your insights, soozievt. The attrition/flunk out rate (due to music theory) that Tom describes is quite alarming, I think, and now I want to know more about how this plays out (if it does, and no pun intended!) at other BFA programs. If anyone knows, please post. I have read discussions on this board about various BFA programs having cut policies (where kids who are not, for whatever reason, making "the grade") are culled along the way, but never before have I read that music theory is causing MTers seeking BFAs to leave in droves, which is how I would describe 15 out of a class of 18 leaving. I would think that if that happened routinely at a school, the school would feel it necessary to re-examine either its admissions policies or its coursework, or (probably!) both, so that there would be a more workable match between the kids selected and the material presented.</p>

16

<p>Yes, Soozievt, I do apologize to you and NotMamaRose for putting that sentence in quotes. That was unfair, I was paraphrasing what I thought you were saying. You can speak for yourself, and it was wrong of me to speak for you. I also understand that you were talking to a specific student. </p>

<p>SUNY Fredonia was one of the first colleges to offer the BFA Musical Theatre Degree. To let you know how long ago I received the degree, I graduated in 1979. These programs have come a long way since then, and I am probably talking about ancient history. I was in the FIRST BFA class they had. Yes, it is 100 percent true that only three of us graduated. And yes, it is 100 percent true that it was because of Music Theory. Fredonia has an incredible music school with very high standards. They did then, and they still do. In 1979 they were still working out the kinks in the program. </p>

<p>I made it through, and I did come out the program with a great education. Sadly, I am sure the standards for theory have been lowered since then, not only at Fredonia but at other colleges. Colleges are in the business of keeping students enrolled. It's not good business for them if 75 percent of the students don't make it through because the program is too hard.</p>

<p>Lowering standards is not a good thing.... It creates students who I spoke about in my original post.... students who Graduate, and still can't read music. How is this possible that someone can graduate and can't find middle c on a piece of music? </p>

<p>Surely, there must be a happy medium. I don't, however, believe that this student is the norm. Does anyone else know a graduate that cannot read music?</p>

<p>Of course a lot has changed since 1979 with these programs...I think the competition for slots has increased by about 5000 percent, I think the quality of students has gotten better, I think the applicants now must be incredibly well prepared in so many different ways, and the pressure to get in has also increased 5000 percent.</p>

<p>I have also written several posts about students and parents relaxing and not stressing about the process of getting into BFA Programs. Of course I agree you can't fret about what you didn't learn in the past. </p>

<p>We are getting slightly off tract here... due partly to me, but if you read my first post, that is the point I was really trying to make.</p>

<p>Best to all.</p>

17

<p>As soozie and NMR have both indicated, Michigan is known as having among the most rigorous piano and theory requirements for its grads. However, at least in the past 5 years, admission to that program has grown more and more rigorous, and no one has flunked out b/c of theory and/or piano. For certain, some students who came in as weak musicians struggled, but the great thing about this program (and others, I'm sure) is that the strong, already-trained musicians tutor the weak ones - peers supporting peers.</p>

<p>I post this because I know the facts in this particular case, and because so many of my students are inordinately worried about ths issue for admission to UM. UM has many, many strong musicians among its MT's - professional accompanists, composers whose works are getting national recognition, etc. - BUT this is certainly not everyone, or even the majority! The piano placement audition is truly just that - there are NO MT faculty in that audition - it's piano grad students. UM certainly takes notice of musicianship on a resume, but it's not a dealbreaker! You WILL learn at school, if your school truly values musicianship - and many do, although not all.</p>

<p>However, I do agree that if you have TIME to do music theory and piano - if your dance, vocal, and/or acting skills are well-developed enough or your schedule is open enough to add some more training, do it! But don't forego dance or voice especially, because THOSE are your PERFORMANCE skills - as is acting, but not everyone has the opportunity to study acting at the high school level.</p>

18

<p>CoachC....that is also my understanding at UMich. Music theory, musicianship, and piano are not deal breakers but can help and they certainly will be trained in it once they get there. Obviously those with experience are at an advantage in the learning process and thus the head of the program encourages applicants to start piano ASAP. But the piano "audition" is merely placement and kids get in with very little piano training and others are very advanced and are accompanists and composers and may place out of music theory and piano requirements all together, but have the option for continued study if they prefer. </p>

<p>Tom, no problem and thank you for your post this evening. I'm not so sure standards have been lowered at BFA programs so that students can graduate. I can only speak for my D's program but frankly, I think this is true at the other very good BFA programs and that is that it is very rigorous and the standards are very high. You can't be absent. You have to get a B or better. The expectations are very high andd the program is very intense. It is not enough to be talented as they push you very hard to go beyond what you can already do. With regard to music theory/piano, my own D has not taken the courses, because she placed out of the requirements in this area along with a few other kids total. But she said even the placement exam was quite challenging and she is an accomplished pianist and has excellent music theory skills. She is paid as an accompanist, music arranger, transcriber, and musical director. I don't think students who come in with no piano or theory will rise to that level, as CoachC also mentions, but they will certainly be expected to become competent in sight reading, theory and basic piano, even if they can't play advanced piano pieces (which I do not believe is the objective). The bar is set high and some programs even cut students who aren't meeting the standards. My D's program doesn't have cuts or promotionals, but the standards expected are NOT low by any means. In fact, it is quite demanding. </p>

<p>I don't know the graduates you are meeting and from which programs they graduated. As with all college programs, the training differs as does the curriculum. Perhaps those students did not have to master sight reading, theory, etc. at their programs. But many programs indeed have such standards within the program. </p>

<p>I do not believe the fact that a higher percentage are graduating from the program than from your program back in the day implies relaxed standards. I think the graduation rate differs from program to program as well. One thing I do notice at all of the programs, including the elites, is that some students do not stay in the programs, for various reasons. One reason may be that until they experience a BFA program, they really do not have a sense of how intense it can be, including the expectations, work, time commitments, standards, etc and they realize it is not for them (this has nothing to do with music theory though). So, l see some "melt" at most of the BFA programs. These students were NOT flunking out at all. In fact, some are very talented and get good grades but just have chosen to not continue in the BFA. So, I do notice that. In fact, the standards are high, not low, at least what I can tell from where my kid attends. The students are really pushed. It is not the kind of thing where no matter what they do, they will pass because the college wishes to retain them. As I said, many schools have promotionals, evaluations, or cuts and will not retain students who don't meet their standards of performance and work ethic. So, I truly do not believe it is getting easier. But I do think it varies from one school to another, just as the standards for admission vary from one college to another.</p>

19

<p>And Tom....in your first post, you mention that the fact that you play piano well and have excellent musicianship skills has made a huge difference in your professional career....I TOTALLY agree. It is not necessary to have expertise in this area for a MT performer (but they must have decent skills), but my observation of someone who is very well skilled in this regard is that she can do OTHER things than performing and can earn money in the MT field on the side while striving for a performance career and not rely on low pay or non professional jobs such as waitressing. So, as someone with a kid in this field who is earning money in MT with her piano and musicianship skills, I can't tell you how advantageous it has been that she can know that she can get work, whereas performing can be iffy, even though she is going for that of course. My D has two resumes....one for musical theater actor and one for music. She has even been turning down jobs to musically direct productions for free (including one such offer today in fact) as she no longer needs those credits and is getting paid work and has a full music resume. She has done enough of it already to know she has jobs she can do when she graduates to earn money while hitting the audition circuit. </p>

<p>So, I am a total believer that the musicianship skills are an asset to someone in this field. While some talk of minors or double majors as "fallbacks," I feel a really good fallback is to have additional skills/experience in theater/music, so that you can get work in this field if not continually cast in a show. My D's fallbacks are areas she loves to do, can be paid to do, and are all related to musical theater. I don't believe she will waitress and she has never had a backup plan in another field. Additional skills in theater, such as composing, accompanying, musical directing, arranging/transcribing, directing, producing, teaching, etc. are good to have in your pocket and can be the fallback to ensure work upon graduating. That is what my college kid is doing and she already has a resume and paid work in all of those areas and can continue with this when she graduates (she also is already in NYC and so these things can continue on past graduation). </p>

<p>So, I do think your message about the benefits of being a musician, either at the basic level to enhance one's work as a musical theater singer, or at a higher level to really be able to be employable in other capacities is an excellent point to push. I never knew when my child started piano at seven, the big payoffs it would have now at 18 and I can hardly believe it as it was never planned that way.</p>

20

<p>Tom, thank you so much again for your posts and for giving us more details about the situation at your class at Fredonia, way back when. (I graduated from college in 1981, so I am in your age bracket! Doesn't feel like that long ago, but tell that to my kids! :)) Please be assured that your original point -- that musicianship, including playing the piano and knowing music theory, is a HUGE asset to any MT performer -- is very clear and the advice is appreciated.</p>