<p>Smithie - thanks. It does seem like the end of world for her, but I will let her know what you wrote. D1 always rolls her eyes every time she sees on CC, but this time she asked me to post it to see what other parents would say. I appreciate suggestions from everyone too.</p>
<p>If she thinks she’s being jerked around by the prof at USydney, she should tell her dean that and ask him to intervene. The fact that the prof won’t show her the exam is suspicious, and that should be communicated to the dean. The dean can tell USydney that he doesn’t want to have to give their program a bad name at his institution.</p>
<p>This does not address the specific concern of the OP, but it is somewhat related. My son’s home college does not factor study abroad grades into the student’s GPA, but, like the OP, they do include the study abroad grades on the transcript. We’ve now also realized (now that son is a senior) that graduate schools request ALL transcripts from schools that student has attended - including study abroad schools. Just another piece of info for the puzzle.</p>
<p>My suggestion:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>She should delay signing the form so that it doesn’t show up on the transcripts that are sent out with her applications.</p></li>
<li><p>She should also initiate whatever procedure is appropriate for review of the grade.</p></li>
<li><p>She should repeat the failed class at her home university, ASAP.</p></li>
<li><p>If she gets an interview, she should disclose the situation to the interviewer, in the following manner:</p></li>
</ol>
<p>She should explain that she studied abroad for the semester and that her grades have come but have not yet been posted to her home college transcript for administrative reasons. (My d.'s study abroad grades took a couple of months to post, even though she signed all the forms ASAP at the beginning of the semester, so delay in posting is not unusual). </p>
<p>Then the d. should say that she found study abroad an interesting experience and that she did very well in some classes, not as well as others – and that there is one class that she failed where her final grade does not seem in line with her average going into the final – so she has initiated a request for review to determine whether there was a mistake made in calculation. She should explain that she is retaking the course at the home u. in any case, since it is important for her to master the material and the poor grade in Sydney is an indication that she has not, whatever the reason for the grade – and, given the distance, she has no opportunity to discuss the situation with the prof. to gain a better understanding of where her weaknesses might be. </p>
<p>The reason I suggest this approach (hold back the transcript but disclose on interview) is that she will be disclosing in the appropriate situation where she will also have an opportunity to explain-- so she is not being dishonest. She is just ensuring that for the time being that the F isn’t the factor that prevents her getting an interview. </p>
<p>I don’t think she should make excuses when she discloses other than noting factual difference in course structure or grading system that may have come into play while she was abroad. But she should describe those differences in a positive way, as a valuable lesson. (Example: “We had to do calculations by hand during the exam, while we would always have calculators to use here! That might have been the reason I didn’t do as well – I’ll bet that with the pressure of the exam I probably made some mistakes on the math. But that made me realize how dependent we American students are on our calculators and computers! I’m going to pay more attention in the future to my math skills – it was a tough lesson, but I think that’s one reason study abroad is so valuable.”) In other words… she’s got to turn her lemon into lemonade.</p>
<p>oldfort, do you mean calculations “by hand” as in calculations by pencil, with no calculator, or do you mean calculations with a calculator, but no supporting software? If it’s the former, I can’t imagine any American employer taking it seriously. </p>
<p>My grandfather (American) studied mathematics at Goettingen when it was arguably the top university in the world for mathematics. He was a professor of mathematics all his adult life. However, he claimed that he had never sent in an income-tax return without an error in the arithmetic somewhere–probably an exaggeration, but still . . . </p>
<p>The aspects of this story that are very weird are:
- The professor won’t let the student see the exam. My university requires faculty to save the exams for at least one semester, specifically for the purpose of showing them to the students. So one might have a student on one’s doorstep, asking to see the previous semester’s exam, on the very last day of the subsequent semester. The relevant rules here are the University of Sydney’s (where it is conceivable that students do not have a right to see their exams, although I would consider that misguided) and also–in my opinion–the home university’s rules. Does the college that your daughter attends require professors to show the students their exams? If so, with what rationale are they willing to allow a student to be failed in a course, when the student has done work well above the passing mark prior to the final, and cannot see the final?
- The remark that the student might have been failed as a woman and as an American is strange. Was the person who made that comment connected with the University of Sydney, or with the home institution? Also, was the person based in Sydney, or based in the U.S.? If not an American administrator based in the U.S., would the person who made that comment be willing to repeat it to a university administrator at your daughter’s home institution? Or if an American administrator based in the U.S., could that person act on his/her own initiative? </p>
<p>Our university has a requirement that grades must be given in “good faith.” The professor’s judgment cannot be called into question, as long as good faith is exercised. However, this seems like a case of bad faith, on the face of it. A student who alleges that a professor assigned a grade based on anything other than a good faith assessment of the performance in the particular course has the option of appealing administratively, through at least three levels, and the administrators at any level can change the grade, after a finding of “lack of good faith.” (It doesn’t have to be actual “bad faith.”)</p>
<p>Finally, are you sure that your daughter’s home school will show the foreign institution’s grades on the transcript? We do not. We simply show transfer credit granted, the name of the class and the number of credits. In a case like this, the failed class would not show up on the transcript at all, at our institution (and normally, as a large public university not in the top 20, we are pretty tough on the students). I think this is the typical practice–though maybe not universal. Perhaps your daughter could speak to someone about this, at her college?</p>
<p>For employment, grad school, etc., she would probably need to submit the transcript from Sydney (if they generate one) separately, but her regular transcript should not need to show the Sydney grades, in my opinion.</p>
<p>If your D feels that she was graded unfairly or there is a mistake in the grading, I think she should go to the Dean of her Finance dept. at her U.S. university and have the Dean inquire on her behalf to look into what happened (just to be sure there was not a mistake in grading).</p>
<p>^^ Quantum Mech, for most study abroad programs at schools like the one hte OP’s daughter goes to, your grades from your host institution are converted into transcript credit and then placed on your transcript for your home school. That is so that students can study in universities where they don’t grade according to the American system can have their grades easily converted for grad schools and other applications. There usually is not a separate official transcript from the hosting university and no way to distentangle the two. </p>
<p>OP, forgot one other point in my story. I actually got a very large salary boost when I joined the government for being a high-achieving scholar, because my GPA was high, even though I submitted a full transcript to my agency which included my fail from study abroad. Rare is the employer who is going to comb every grade on the transcript and cancel an otherwise strong candidate for one blip. I just really feel for your D because I remember agonizing over my own F and worrying that it would bar me from other opportunities, but in the end it didn’t really affect me at all.</p>
<p>QuentMech - D1 came home as soon as she finished her finals. As she is no longer in Sydney, she is not able to view her exam, and they will not send it to her because it’s the school’s policy. Yes, all calculations were done by hand, no calculator. The study abroad dean (from her home school) made those comments because they have seen “anti-American” sentiment, and a semester in Sydney D1 has felt discriminated because she is a woman and an Eurasian, which was a complete surprise to her (I have posted of such sentiment in other threads). </p>
<p>D1 really doesn’t want to go down the route of blame game here because we don’t really know. But the paper she wrote had no comment on it when she got it back. In over a month, she tried to get together with the professor to see how she could have done better (not necessary to change the grade), but the professor would come up with excuses to not meet with her. She had no choice but to request for an informal review (regrade) of her paper because she was leaving the country. Before the final, she went to every review session. The TA said at the last session (in front of everyone) that she knew it cold, and she should do fine. She knew she didn’t get 100% right, but she knew how to do 80% of them. The professor could give her no credit for any miscalculations and give other students partial credit, we don’t know.</p>
<p>I did ask her why she only got a high 60 for the midterm. She said it was actually a high grade for the class. She said the professor didn’t teach a lot of concept in class, to purposely make it hard. For the final, she went over materials that weren’t cover in class because of previous experience.</p>
<p>I am running to a company dinner, so I typed this very quickly. I will check back later tonight. Thanks again, everyone.</p>
<p>Oldfort, I think employers are reasonably forgiving about study abroad grades even if she opts to have them appear on the transcript immediately. During an interview, the key message is: “I had a wonderful experience overseas and learned a lot- clearly, CF was more challenging than I had anticipated, but I’m taking it again at my home college and doing really well so I’m confident in my skills” will do the trick. Nobody will belabor the point unless she gets into a protracted discussion.</p>
<p>And for all you know, the professor has a policy not to give partial credit on the final- which would mean that many students who thought they knew 80% of the material ended up flunking. You just don’t know. So even if her logic and methodology were correct, if her answers were off by a misplaced digit or decimal point, she-- and all her fellow students- would have been graded incorrect (which in fact, it was.)</p>
<p>So sally forward. No more grinding of teeth on this- it is counterproductive and frankly, mitigates some of the advantages of these “life’s lessons”. She could get a case interview during her job search where her interviewer also penalizes for the “wrong answer” (we encourage our interviewers to look for problem-solving creativity and analytical rigor and not to pin everything on the arithmetic, but we do have a few interviewers who are biased against people who can’t do multiplication on a piece of scratch paper). So sometimes you can get almost everything right EXCEPT the mathematically correct answer, and it’s held against you. That’s life- especially in finance.</p>
<p>A weeder class is used to reduce the number of students going into a major. To weed out weaker students; however weak is defined.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Definitely time to let others on a higher level deal with this. I say, delay signing the paper, retake the class and move on. The US school should definitely warn their students to avoid this class in future.</p>
<p>And thanks for the hint about taking semester abroad classes pass/fail. My D is thinking about going to a semester abroad and studying something that is not part of her major, so taking classes pass/fail on this semester abroad would make great sense. I wouldn’t have thought of it.</p>
<p>oldfort, I missed your post here that explained an interesting twist. If a student fails this class then he/she won’t be able to major in Finance. U. Sydney is a public school, they only want X number students for finance.</p>
<p>This is certainly a point to clear when she speaks to the Dean. You also mentioned that the prof didn’t like your D, but that’s not something she can prove. But having only a certain number of students pass a course is very real. My H is an actuary and I recall he had said that’s what “they” (however grades those tests) do too. In other words, a student could do very well, but still not pass the test. I’m not at all certain if this is true, and it was many, many years ago that he said it, but that point may certainly be an important factor for your D. That is, she should talk to the Dean about this to get it straightened out.</p>
<p>This is not something that we would ever know…We think D1 is not exactly a dummy, if she could make careless mistakes while doing calculations long hand then it’s likely other students could do the same. What if other students were given partial credit when they made careless mistakes and D1 wasn’t? We don’t know. The only way we would know is to have another professor look at how other students were graded on the final and then grade D1’s final independently. </p>
<p>D1 is not so arrogant or so confident to think she could never get below a B in any class. It is just hard for her to believe she could go into a final with a 66 (B or B+) average and ended up with an F as her final grade. If it was a C, I think it could have been more believable.</p>
<p>Base on your recommendations, </p>
<p>1) D1 has contacted her school’s study abroad directors to see if they could intervene.
2) She is working on her formal appeal to U. Sidney to take another look at her test (long application, needs to justify to the nth degree as to why).
3) Signed up for similar CP course at her school for this spring.
4) She is going to delay in signing the form.</p>
<p>As mentioned by few posters, this probably will just be a minor setback for her. Hopefully this thread will make some people be aware of some pitfalls in studying abroad. Students need to be aware of other country’s way of doing things is not always the same as ours. Ask a lot of questions first.</p>
<p>I agree with blossom. If an employer were to see the F now, saying “I had a wonderful experience overseas and learned a lot- clearly, CF was more challenging than I had anticipated, but I’m taking it again at my home college and doing really well so I’m confident in my skills” would do it.</p>
<p>
I had been thinking how grateful I was that you posted this thread oldfort but didn’t want to hijack your thread where you were looking for sugestions. I had often wondered if there might be pitfalls as far as grades are concerned with study abroad especially where classes might be taught/graded differently. My daughter had also been looking at Australia. I am very surprised to hear that there would be an anti woman bias in Australia. </p>
<p>I think it is a moot point for us now as it seems that my little procrastinator is not going to get round to applying after all (and this would have been her last chance). I was really disappointed about her not taking the opportunity for what I think would have been a once in a life experience. But after reading this thread maybe I am somewhat less disappointed!!</p>
<p>Please keep us posted about how it all turns out.</p>
<p>I do believe that employers and grad schools understand the differences in grading policies when students study abroad. DS’s university had a relationship with the Royal College of Music. The two years prior to DS’s trip there, the grades were simply recorded on the kids’ transcripts when they returned and they WERE included in their GPAs. However, the grading system was on a 0-70 system with really no conversion supplied…so kids were getting a 70 grade and it was being noted as C or C-. Needless to say, this was “discouraging” some kids from applying to the programs. The school (after much “input” from the students) made the decision to apply a conversion to the grading system that began the year DS went. Personally I think the courses should have been pass/fail and not included in the GPA…but that was not their decision.</p>
<p>Anyway…I guess what I’m saying to Oldfort…her daughter needs to put what has happened in writing. The bottom line is this could jeopardize her school’s relationship with this study abroad school because students won’t want to risk this situation occuring again. Plus…you don’t know if this has happened previously…so put it in writing for the school. </p>
<p>In the meantime…I agree that putting a positive spin on this is essential. Discussing the paper she wrote and the info she gained is going to be one way to difuse the discussion of the grade.</p>
<p>I want to go on the record…my son got only one C in college. It was in a personal finance course. To this day…he says he learned MORE useful information in that course than in many others…AND he feels it should be a required course for all undergrad students…despite his less than stellar grade (which kept him from graduating with honors, btw).</p>
<p>Of course, he’s in a field where his grades really don’t matter…</p>
<p>Hi,</p>
<p>I suspect there may be some cross-cultural confusion here. There are a couple of things that spring to mind from my experience of sending UK students to Australia. Sydney (unusually in Australia) normally uses norm-referenced assessment. This means only a certain proportion can pass and they are judged against the performance of other students in the class. This might explain the apparent discrepancy between your daughter’s earlier marks and the final outcome - her work was OK but just not good enough against the other students. As far as I know failing scripts are second marked to double check like in the UK, and appeals against the mark are a much more formal procedure than in the USA. Consequently, professors will tend to react cooly to informal approaches as it is seen as incorrect. There will be a document on their website explaining all this in mind-numbing detail.
Australian departments also have to retain exam scripts for a specified amount of time (normally until an academic board has made a final decision on the student’s degree and any time for appeals) - that means students really can only review their scripts on campus. I just mention this because it might help explain what has happened and also help you decide what is and isn’t worth doing in Sydney.
One thing she might want to consider is that unlike American universities, the possibility of resit examinations exist - again details should be on their website. The grade might be capped at a basic pass (I don’t know but as many of their systems are like British ones, that’s what we do). But maybe worth thinking about if she thinks a) she could get through and b) her home university would just record it as a pass.
Frankly, I’m most horrified that her home university has clearly not bothered to find out how a partner university operates and to counsel students accordingly! That really is dereliction of duty and well worth complaining about. With norm-referenced assessment it’s normally very mechanical when grades are decided on, so I think they are particularly far off the mark in claiming anti-Americanism.
Anyway just to echo the comments of everyone else - I really think the value of the study abroad experience will outweigh this one bad grade in employers’ eyes.</p>
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<p>As some of you know, I have studied in the UK for 7 years. Between undergraduate and graduate studies, I wroked in Australia for 6 months. I had lived there fore a year as a child. I thought it would be fun, especially as it was a job working with animals. Australia is just like Britain in the sun. It has the same TV programmes. It would be a good experience. I was very wrong. Everyone was very nice to me socially, but in the workplace women were treated so badly! It was like 60 years ago. I was really shocked by the experience. I am quite an ambitious character and it made me so very unhappy. Australia is a wonderful place to visit for a vacation, but I really didn’t like to live there as I was treated like a 1940s housewife. I was back in the UK by Christmas. I had applied to for a few masters courses in Oz but withdrew my applications. </p>
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<p>I answer lots of questions about study abroad programmes and sadly I think this is the norm! People always PM me about why have they got such terrible grades abroad. For example 70% is genius level in the UK but a fail in the US system, but the vast majority of study abroad programmes seem to make no allowance for this wahtsoever. Do not attend any study abroad programme until you work out how it is graded. It is usually up to the home institution in the US to decide what they will do with grades suppied by the foreign school.</p>
<p>Is it safe to assume that none of these concerns about different grading abroad would apply when the study abroad program is actually run by one’s own (American) university, with courses taught by professors from that university?</p>
<p>
I suppose they haven’t heard of this remarkable new technology known as a copying machine. Seriously, I think all your points indicate why the OP’s D needs to get her current institution involved in mediating for her.</p>