<p>psych again your post is a perfect reflection of the education elite and their view of undergraduate education. As for the grants having long term economic returns that may or may not be true. Since this is a FA thread do you believe that an undergraduate education is a good value at 250k from the top private schools?</p>
<p>Educational elite? I attended a third tier state school in a state small enough that Pew has to group it with another (and got a damn good undergrad education for less than $35k total, the rest coming from a scholarship endowed by a private downer). I had wonderful professors who knew me by name, taught great classes, and were also researchers. In fact, my biggest criticism of my undergrad department is that they didn’t do enough research, and it bugged me that several faculty no longer publish! I TA’ed classes and taught seminars as an undergrad (for free or very nominal pay), and I hope I did a good job as well. I would have chaffed at a school without research opportunities (and wouldn’t have gotten into grad school, where I do <em>gasp</em> research and work with “at risk” children in public schools [school psychology program]).</p>
<p>Is 250k worth it for undergrad education? Maybe, but that sure isn’t what I chose when I did at my “elite” middle of nowhere public university in lower realms of USNWR’s ranked schools. So, I don’t know–but I can tell you I loved my undergrad education, and I loved my undergrad research. </p>
<p>But thanks for the unfounded assumptions.</p>
<p>Also, as someone with a “severe” developmental physical disability, I could “be taking your money” (arrgh–there are so many things wrong with that) by living off public assistance, SSI, and Medicare. Rather, I’ve never received any form of public assistance beyond what everyone receives (and maybe a few things under IDEA/ADA–horrors, civil rights and all!) and have worked–as a researcher, instructor, and government intern–for wages for the past 3 years. So, without research grants, I’d still be “shafting” you as a member of a (horrors!) at-risk population but wouldn’t have contributed to research or worked with the kid with behavior issues in schools this semester). Also, my PI and I wouldn’t have presented to that undergraduate class last year on a topic people knew zilch about 10-20 years ago–and would still know nothing about if it wasn’t for research! Oh, and I wouldn’t have paid taxes, either, as I would have had a substantially reduced to non-existant income, thereby not doing my part to help fund undergrad education. Ironically, I facilitated an undergraduate seminar for 4 semesters, something that was also funded by a (more worthy?) federal grant.</p>
<p>What is the purpose of a university? Is it to support and facilitate academic research or to teach undergraduates?</p>
<p>If you would answer that question (as I would) with “both,” then some of the most recent posts in this thread border on the silly.</p>
<p>I’ll return to the point I tried to make (probably poorly) upthread: let those whose talents and interests are in research spend their time in research and let them discharge their teaching responsibilities by supervising graduate students. But also hire people who WANT to teach and are good at it, turn THEM loose on the undergraduate population, and grant the best of them tenure on the basis of their teaching ability, whether or not they ever do any meaningful research.</p>
<p>Now there, I’ve uttered two heresies and no doubt made both sides mad at me. So be it.</p>
<p>I completely agree, annasdad. Like I said, I enjoy and value teaching AND research!</p>
<p>I’d also put forth the example of my Dad, who was a history professor at a LAC for 32 years. He was a superb teacher - the first recipient when the college instituted a “teacher of the year” award based on student votes. He loved teaching. He also threw himself into the life of the institution and the profession - served as department chair, was active on a number of faculty committees, organized and ran for many years a summer program for adult learners, was active in the AAUP, was a big wheel in both the state and county historical societies. He did very little “research” - a couple of journal articles, plus a book that he worked on off-and-on for years and never finished. But when would he have had time, given his other productive and useful activities? Fortunately, the school was one where teaching was valued, and although several of his departmental colleagues did make significant marks in research, he was considered for many years the “spiritual” leader of the department of history.</p>
<p>^
Conversely, there are schools/departments where research isn’t well-supported, and folks who are skilled at and committed to research are a bit shafted. Also, teaching and research aren’t mutually exclusive–some of the best professors I had in undergrad were amazing teachers and highly productive researchers.</p>
<p>“As for most research being irrelevant, most research has always been and will always be irrelevant. There is no magic formula for picking the winners.”</p>
<p>Or when, or how, or why, or indirect effects on student learning.</p>
<p>Managers are idiots when they leave the confines of well understood penny counting.</p>
<p>Anyway, the entire premise smells of BS. A prof makes <em>maybe</em> twice the salary of a bureaucracy annoyance, and their are umpteen fold more annoyances per prof on public campuses.</p>
<p>Chop the bureaucracy, not the teachers and certainly not the researchers. Damn it.</p>
<p>My wife taught two courses as an adjunct, for which she was paid $1800 per course with about 25 students in each. How much could the tuition drop if these two courses were taught by full professors? 50%?</p>
<p>This also applies to over 80% of undergraduate degrees since there few/no well paying jobs that can be obtained even from the top twenty schools.</p>
<p>Here is a very clear analysis by a highly regarded financial genius. </p>
<p>[PIMCO</a> | Investment Outlook - School Daze, School Daze Good Old Golden Rule Days](<a href=“http://www.pimco.com/EN/Insights/Pages/School-Daze-School-Daze-Good-Old-Golden-Rule-Days.aspx]PIMCO”>School Daze School Daze Good Old Golden Rule Days | PIMCO)</p>