Too many unqualified students at UT/college. Rampant Grade Inflation. Thoughts.

<p>Last month a heated online discussion that spanned many forums (including this one) emerged in response to the question, "Are too many students going to college?". </p>

<p>A journalist at the Daily Texan wrote a small piece about the issue, though the comments surrounding his article mostly had nothing to do with the topic at hand, but focused on the off-color remarks of a well regarded economics professor at UT, Dr. Hamermesh. These are a few of his alarming and uncalled-for comments. </p>

<p>“People who say there are too many kids in college are the same right-wingers who say minorities are not smart enough to get into college,"</p>

<p>“We are not Austin Community College or Texas State University. We should be training the leaders of tomorrow to think,” Hamermesh said. </p>

<p>The</a> Daily Texan - Professors dispute employment value of college degrees</p>

<p>I read Charles Murray's "Real Education" and was nodding in agreement with him on almost every page. Why? Because I saw it everyday in my classes at UT. He states that only the top 10-15% of college-aged students are intelligent enough to handle real college level work. In terms of SAT scores, he suggests a minimum of 1180/1600 as the borderline for the ability to handle college level work. </p>

<p>How does this relate to Dr. Hamermeshs comments? The mid 50% SAT range of incoming freshman from the class 2008 to UT was 1120-1340. If you do a quick analysis of that data compared with the 1180 as the borderline for ability to handle college level work, almost a THIRD of students should not even be attending this University, or any University at all. </p>

<p>Hamermesh's implies (though he might have been quoted out of context) that all UT students are great students and that everyone at ACC or TXTU is an idiot. I'm overstating a bit,to illustrate my point more clearly. Sure, the average student at UT will be much smarter and capable than the average student at ACC or TXTU. If you use the same comparison of TXTU SAT scores, about 70-80% of their students should not be in college. Among the heated comments were many from TXTU students who chose TXTU over UT, pointedly accused the UT football team of being bad students or downright dumb (very true, given the sad state of high-level collegiate sports, but their football players are most likely just as unintelligent, and ours are evidently much better athletically, we are headed to the BCS Championship game, after all :)), and many who simply felt that Mr. Hamermesh insulted them (true). </p>

<p>You can call me racist, elitist, or any number of bad names, but the scientifically accepted conclusion is that as groups, East Asians are more intelligent than Whites, who are more intelligent than Latinos, who are more intelligent than Blacks. These are aggregate results. BUT BY NO MEANS, do you take this data, to create racism. It is immoral and irresponsible to look at an INDIVIDUAL and presume his or her academic ability by the color of their skin. It is stupid and wrong. There are a great number of Blacks who are way smarter than a great number of East Asians. Just as there are a good handful of students at TXTU or even ACC that are smarter than a handful of students at UT. </p>

<p>Professor Hamermesh essentially makes the politically incorrect and morally corrupt statement that, "All Whites are smart, all Blacks are dumb," except instead of white, it is "Longhorn", and instead of black, it is "Bobcat". </p>

<p>He also claims to be against the idea that "Too many students are going to college". But all the students that are going to his particular school, should be here, because they are the future leaders, blah, blah, blah. The statistics I presented earlier will show that he is sorely mistaken about the abilities and suitability of his own students. He's seen it in his classes, the intellectual incapability of some students at UT, but he insists on denying it. He would be lying if he said he thought every student at UT belongs here. </p>

<p>Engineering degrees and hard science degrees are worth it. The students graduating with these degrees are smart, by the nature of the difficult and demanding curriculum. Many drop out in the first year, but the ones that remain and graduate, are mostly good. Social darwinism at work. Engineering students and the majority of science students will agree with me that they study more than people in other majors. Graduating with these degrees from UT is something kids should be proud of. They will obtain jobs that make a difference in our society and also pay well. </p>

<p>At the other end of the "degree" spectrum are the majority of the liberal arts, communications, business, education, and other degrees are worth little more than the paper they are printed on for a large number of students. </p>

<p>Many kids majoring in these fields are doing it for all the wrong reasons. A lot of them despise their coursework, struggle with assignments, and on top of that, incur a significant amount of debt to attend. They are here because without that "B.A", they would be viewed as second class citizens in the world, and would never get the foot in the door of a decent paying job. There is an enormous injustice in the false premium placed on a "B.A". These kids do not need the knowledge supposedly learned during their years at college for the job. They want to be salesmen, saleswomen, brand managers, television and radio hosts, etc, skills that can be taught within one or two years. They do not need to be pouring over Hobbes and Locke shaking their heads in confusion or attempting to "do" calculus. They cannot do it. As most people cannot dunk a basketball no matter how much effort they put into it. Forcing people through four or sometimes five years of this "education" is approaching cruel and unusual punishment. This needs to change. </p>

<p>This brings me to my next point. By allowing these young men and women into this University, you have forced many instructors into impossible situations. They cannot teach difficult material or demand superb work from their students, because if they did, a lot of kids would fail, and they would be in big trouble, that is, unless they have tenure. </p>

<p>Additionally, Professors often judged by how EASY their class is. Good professors and TA's are the ones that give lots of A's. A lot of kids I know, when faced with a liberal or science prerequisite, automatically scan Pick-a-Prof for the coolest sounding class that also gives more than 50% of the students A's. This is how they choose their classes. A bad professor is often one that is rightfully demanding of his or her students. Those classes are usually never filled up too quickly. Sure, there are plenty of horrific teachers at UT (the math department and engineering departments are full of them, a lot of who combine the worst sins of zero personality and unintelligible English communication skills), but you should praise and laud instructors that ask the most of you. You should never punish them. </p>

<p>I'll give a few anecdotal examples of my experiences with the laughable degree of difficulty of some of my classes. I took a management class (I was a McCombs student), according to Pick-a-Prof, with one of the more "difficult" professors. He assigned essays. I worked hard on the first essay, to be rewarded with a 50/50. I was happy, until I realized, everyone either got a 50/50 or a 45/50. You got a 50/50 if you wrote on the topic and it was of the appropriate length and 45/50 if you didn't do both of those things. After I found this alarming fact, I proceeded to churn out absolute garbage for assignments. Garbage that would earn me an A+ every single time. I made a high A, mostly based on the fact that I came to class everyday and participated meaningfully, which many students did not bother to do, but still somehow felt slighted and angered when they were awarded a "B", so angered that they stood twenty deep in front of the professors office to attempt to win a few points for the "A". </p>

<p>Too many students care solely about grades and not enough about the coursework or the opportunity to learn from an accomplished faculty member. Its about the A for them, not the knowledge. </p>

<p>I can safely say that in my English Literature, Philosophy, Government, Economics, Sociology, and EVEN calculus courses, I was unchallenged and simply bored out of my wits. In my high school, a challenging prep school, I spent hours formulating and proofreading my papers, only to usually receive a very honest B and the occasional A. I am an above average-writer and I'll admit, not too great at reading and analyzing classical and contemporary literature. In my classes at college, again, I found I could write a "paper" if you could it that at all, less than ten minutes before it was due, and almost always, receive an A or A+. Still, many of my students found these courses, extremely difficult, for some odd reason. Certainly it couldn't be that I was just a bonafide genius. No, it was a dizzying combination of grade inflation and unqualified students. The instructor was forced to give me a good grade because my crap was light years better than the writings of my peers. If he failed me, he would have to fail almost everyone else, and that wouldn't be too good for him or her. I got an A, most other people got B's, and C's, and a few D's and a F's. It will never look like grade inflation on the surface, because the distribution is correct, but it is. I don't deserve that A. I know it. The instructor knows it. The only people who don't know the truth are those with B's and C's that should be D's and F's. And sometimes they think they deserve A's. </p>

<p>Even calculus here is dumbed down. Yes, calculus. That word that sends many a first-year into a tremors is in fact, too easy. I took 408D with a "extremely hard professor" according to the general student consensus, but it was a laughing matter. He was a dreadful teacher by all accounts, but a great mathematician, I would assume. I skipped almost every class. Why? You took a test with 5 problems. These 5 problems were the low-level or medium-level problem set questions with switched numbers. Thats it. The test takes less than 30 minutes. I'll admit, I made a low grade on the first test, because well, there are 5 problems, you miss one, its a lot of points. And I thought it was going to be a hard test. So I way-overthought two problems that could have been solved in 10 seconds. A terrible self-fulfilling prophecy. Once I realized it was easy, it was easy. But still this is one of the most widely failed and dropped classes. Many students try to wriggle their way out of the calculus requirements by taking "online classes". Those students should never be forced to take calculus as part of their degree. Its cruel and unusual punishment. But apparently, the school thinks it does them a lot of good. </p>

<p>The honors programs (Plan II, DS, BHP, etc) are usually pretty good, though some are guilty of handing out way too many A's (BHP). But some of the students here are not up to snuff either. I've had economics majors in these programs ask me how to solve economics questions. They were befuddled when I showed them that calculus was necessary to find the area under a curve. They wanted to use geometry. Calculus was too hard. I hope they were not planning on pursuing economics in graduate school. </p>

<p>I'm sick of going to class with students who hate the class. I'm sick of being the only student making a meaningful comment in class. I'm sick of editing papers written at middle-school level. </p>

<p>What are Office Hours for? This is why most students go to office hours.<br>
1. Plead and argue for a grade raise. This is pathetic. Ok, if you have a legitimate reason, but simply disgusting when you don't go to class and expect a raise.<br>
2. Ask for the instructor to explain/tell you/repeat FACTUAL or SIMPLE material that is clearly presented in the text. You do not need to be in office hour to ask a respected intellectual about when the constitution was ratified. That is easily found in your textbook or google. One instructor bemoaned the fact that this was happening to me when we were talking in private.<br>
3. Brown-nosing. I've had many people tell me the reason they go to office hours is so that they can hopefully snatch a good recommendation letter in the future. Trust me, instructors know when your here for that reason. </p>

<p>I've gotten the opportunity a few times to hold meaningful conversations and discussions with my instructors about their research, explore class topics more in-depth, and sometimes just to talk about life. I love going to Office Hours. I wish I had more of these opportunities, but unfortunately, its crammed full of students attempting sins #1-#3. </p>

<p>This is my rant. What are your thoughts? Am I right? Wrong?</p>

<p>We get it. From this post and from other posts, you were unhappy with UT. There is no need to trash it. I’m sorry you are too good for it and are/were unhappy here. Move on instead of dwelling on something which made you unhappy.</p>

<p>Your point in posting this diatribe here is…??? My suggestion is to transfer to another University as you are clearly unhappy with UT</p>

<p>It’s true… I also feel that classes at UT are mostly very easy.
Even the engineering classes, many people think they are very hard but it is actually pretty easy to get an A even without attending the classes. The engineering classes tend to be dull and boring too, probably because they are not challenging.
I personally do find some of my engineering peers do not fit in engineering. I have some friends who take introductory math and physics classes at community colleges because they think that these classes at UT are very hard.
UT needs to cut down its admission number. We are operating at more than full capacity and taking in students who are not college-ready.</p>

<p>You are clearly at the wrong college, although you may find that most colleges are the same. </p>

<p>My niece got her degree in engineering at Cornell, and constantly complained at family gatherings about how stupid the other students were, and how intellectually superior she was. She is currently getting her PHD at Penn and we now not only have to hear about how stupid her fellow PHD candidates are, but also the students she is TA-ing for. </p>

<p>Can you imagine how awful Christmas must be for her to have to sit at a table filled with us ignoramuses?</p>

<p>For the rest of the family, we consider her insufferable, but put up with it because, well, she is family.</p>

<p>My point is, maybe it’s you who has the problem…</p>

<p>Hey! Whats with all the negative responses! Just kidding, I’d imagine most would find it extremely that post demeaning. </p>

<p>And you know what, I accept that a lot of my issues have to do with ME. I am dissatisfied and a lot of it is my fault, not the fault of everyone else. And most colleges are probably the same, even the more competitive ones. And my issue is a problem IN GENERAL, that can be applied to the majority of universities, though probably even more pronounced at less selective places. </p>

<p>But your missing my point entirely. I respect anyone who comes to class, regardless of ability, engages their mind fully and completely. Anyone who does that, deserves to be there. </p>

<p>I’m just concerned about the kids who are pursuing a non-science/engineering degree that simply put it, don’t care. Well, they care about the grade and the degree, but not their major, or learning for that matter. What they care about is College. The football games (hook’em, can’t wait for the BCS game), the parties, the co-eds. </p>

<p>I once asked a close friend what they liked about college. She straight up told me, “Everything but the school work. If we only we didn’t have that.” Hmm…what happened to learning for the sake of learning? </p>

<p>I’m not pointing fingers and telling you how stupid everyone is with no sense of humility what so ever. I know the difference between good writing and bad writing. When I turn in a piece of work that clearly is not up to par and receive an A+, something is wrong. If I was more ignorant, I could wrongly get the idea that I am a brilliant writer, and way too smart for this class. But I never said that and that is NOT true. All I’m saying is that the standards have obviously been lowered.</p>

<p>In this day and age, when getting a degree is critical in getting your foot in the door career-wise, you are, of course, going to have plenty of people who are only there for the “degree”, and not the education for “learning’s sake”. But, as an adult, I can tell you that this is no different from years ago when far fewer students pursued a college degree. While in college, the vast majority are focused on grades and major, and how those two factors will advance their future opportunities. Every now and then, you might get a class that both challenges and interests you, and those are the classes and professors that you will remember as life changing.</p>

<p>The other thing, that just happens to be a lucky bi-product of your four years in college, is that you may experience a wonderful time of comaraderie and school pride (the whole “hook em” thing), and just plain old fun (parties and co-eds). Once your schooling years are over, you will have plenty of time to do nothing but work and sleep ;). If a student can find the right mix of “play hard-study hard”, where they are able to maintain their grades while enjoying their college experience, they should not be begrudged, they should be lauded for learning how to balance their priorities.</p>

<p>College is what you make of it, if other students aren’t taking full advantage of the opportunities offer at UT then that’s their personal choice. </p>

<p>As for Hammermesh’s comments,</p>

<p>He points out that UT graduates earn more money than the median income. Since, it can be presumed, UT is a ‘better’ school than ACC or Tx State, that difference in prestige will probably correlate to a difference in both initial and lifetime income. What Hammermesh is implying is that an employer would view job applicants from UT and Texas State with similar scores/GPA/etc and make the assumption that the UT candidate is more qualified simply because of the name of the diploma and the quality of education it presumes. </p>

<p>He argues that UT is worth it as an investment, he’d likely say the same thing about a more prestigious school like Harvard, even if it is more expensive. </p>

<p>Also, regarding the point that “East Asians are more intelligent than Whites, who are more intelligent than Latinos, who are more intelligent than Blacks.”</p>

<p>You have to be very careful in laying out your definition of “intelligent”. Just like women and men are predisposed to excel at different areas of study, there are also cultural motivations pushing certain ethnic groups to excel in certain fields. When you make it a racial issue you’re invoking genetics which is a big no-no. Take a newborn asian boy and having him raised by a black family outside Detroit, is he still going to be great at calculus?</p>

<p>What I see at UT is not so much a lack of intelligence as a lack of good study habits. Students cram for exams, get an A or a B, and forget everything in a week. Then they cram for the next one, and so on, eventually ending the semester with a halfway decent grade but with none of the knowledge they’re supposed to carry into the next course. I’m speaking predominantly of science majors here.</p>

<p>UT is a mix of some really fantastic students who live up to their potential, a lot who simply follow the mainstream that is more concerned with grades than knowledge, and a pretty good number who were done a gross disservice when UT accepted them. The Top 10% rule (now Top 8%) forces UT to blindly accept students who are not prepared and who would have been happier and more successful somewhere else. I’d bet the admissions office knows full well which high schools are sending them future dropouts, but there’s not a darn thing they can do about it.</p>

<p>At LonghornLife-</p>

<p>"He argues that UT is worth it as an investment, he’d likely say the same thing about a more prestigious school like Harvard, even if it is more expensive. "</p>

<p>Sure, but that brings us into tricky waters, into what that investment entails. Why is it worth the investment? People who make this argument also point to the fact that college graduates make more money than non-graduates and then conclude that going to college makes you richer. Therefore, they argue, everyone should go to college. They mistake correlation for causation. </p>

<p>Is the investment worth it because of the knowledge that UT imparts that you couldn’t have obtained at TXTU? Or is it worth it because the “name” of UT on the degree gives you opportunities that a TXTU graduate wouldn’t have access to? Again, the reality is probably somewhere intermediate of the two extremes I just postulated. </p>

<p>If you were a good student who had the choice was accepted to both TXTU and UT, they probably with a little more effort, will probably earn just the same regardless of which school they go to. Problem is, MOST, not all, of the students who attend TXTU, could not get into UT. </p>

<p>The main cause of UT’s higher median income is NOT, I argue, a result of UT’s excellent education, but because, well, UT students are generally smarter. </p>

<p>Of course employers use the perceived prestige factor as a screening device, as they should, but I would argue that its used TOO much. Wouldn’t you be offended if someone from Harvard was offered a job that you were clearly more qualified for, just because they, well, went to Harvard? Thats not only immoral, its inefficient for the employer, and for the economy as a whole. </p>

<p>Also, regarding the point that “East Asians are more intelligent than Whites, who are more intelligent than Latinos, who are more intelligent than Blacks.” </p>

<p>I understand that race is a touchy subject and it is politically incorrect for me to make that statement. The scientific consensus though, is that there is a significant difference between the distribution of “IQ” between races. We are talking about “IQ” in terms of logical-mathematical and linguistic ability. That is what I refer to, when I say intelligence. </p>

<p>I also agree with you and Howard Gardner, that there are multiple intelligences. </p>

<p>Environment plays a part, but SO DO genes. </p>

<p>I think that cultural stereotypes are overrated as well, as you do. You should never be forced into doing anything, because of your race. Black people must be good at sports. Asians must be good at math. While these are commonly used stereotypes, they are in fact, racist (though positive) statements. I HATE when people infer something about someone based on the color of their skin. That’s not just wrong, its stupid. Positive stereotypes are just as immoral as negative stereotypes. The averages and distributions are aprior truths, but stereotyping is not. We must look carefully and examine the INDIVIDUAL, and assess their strengths and weaknesses honestly. Read “The Bell Curve” by Murray and Hernstein. </p>

<p>What we get wrong in American culture today is that, everybody is smart, in the academic sense. Because we won’t admit, some people simply can’t do calculus or read Plato. But we will admit that some people simply can’t dance, be musicians (ME!), or can’t ball. And 50% of people are below average. </p>

<p>At AG-</p>

<p>Hook’Em. Hopefully we can get our running game going a bit, otherwise we’ll have no chance. But its getting out of hand when sports take priority over academics. Just look at the Alabama. They just cancelled three days of school, that they won’t make up, for the big game. :(</p>

<p>At spdf-</p>

<p>Agreed on the cramming. Study habits are hard to learn though, especially when there are so many, well,distractions :). </p>

<p>The top 10% rule is a terrible policy. Politically-correct affirmative action. They managed to improve it a bit with the 8%, but still its a silly way of conducting admissions.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Cum hoc ergo propter hoc is an indeed a rampant fallacy that should be corrected. But so is assuming that subsets are supersets. Just because some “people make this argument” does not mean that OP made that argument.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Straw man arguments also do not bode well for credibility.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>This “scientific consensus” you speak of is largely concentrated in the one work that you cited by Murray, Hernstein. Academics is a pluralistic process for a reason. Also, the main metric of “intelligence” used by Murray is cranial capacity. Another famous comparison of brain sizes leads to the conclusion that all men are more intelligent than women. Wasn’t it you who mentioned that correlation doesn’t indicate causation? Primordialism’s credibility died in the colonial age for a reason. </p>

<p>It’s okay to be frustrated with UT. Try to do so respectfully.</p>

<p>I think you are expecting too much about of a general population sample. I guarantee you there are many people like you here at UT. Of course, they are a minority. The average person isn’t motivated to learn for the sake of learning. The average person wants a degree, and then a job.</p>

<p>In the honors programs, the majority of students are very academically engaged. Maybe you should try taking some honors classes.</p>

<p>If your so “sick” join an honors program and if your bored with that why not attend a school like MIT or Harvard?</p>

<p>All I care about is getting tail at Fiji Foam, all this academics ********…who cares. My father owns 5 dealerships…</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I hope all y’all killjoys heed this advice and leave this school. Quit trying to make this about studies. This school is about drinking till you can’t remember the 5 greatest years of your life. If you don’t like it, well you can git the heeeelllllll out!</p>

<p>Listen…we’re going to the BCS National Championship and we’re gonna win. What more do you guys want?</p>

<p>^ haha we are not gonna win the National Championship. I wish we would though.</p>

<p>I thought you had a well thought out post for a flame post. I’m just lucky that in my school, you cannot argue grades. I think it really does help people focus on their studies.</p>

<p>Leeznon, why don’t we have a shot at winning the NC? You sound like the people who said we didn’t have a shot against USC. </p>

<p>I understand we had a terrible BIG 12 game, but guess what, look at Alabama’s scores this year and you’ll find just as many close games as Texas.</p>

<p>We have a shot at the Championship, a really small shot. I wouldn’t compare this game to the game vs USC because both teams were great; I don’t think UT’s team this year is great just good. And yes Alabama’s also had close games, but they were close games versus good teams. Texas had close games vs not so good teams.</p>

<p>I’m not comparing the games; I’m comparing people’s attitudes toward the game. I’d like to think the best QB in college football and a great defense gives us a better shot. </p>

<p>And Alabama’s close games were against unranked teams. Not to mention their meltdown last year in the Sugar Bowl.</p>