I never advised students to ignore a school’s stated policies, nor do I think a student should.
Okay, I guess I misunderstood. It seems like you are saying that, if tests are available, then AO’s will hold non-submission against the applicants, even when the college’s stated policy is that it will not. What did I get wrong?
I phrased it as a question. The question was not rhetorical. I do not know the answer to the question I posed, nor does anyone other than the AO for that school since, I suspect, the answer will vary by school.
Congratulations to your son; 1490 is a terrific score whether or not he chooses to submit it to Penn. According to the link below, the middle 50% at Penn for the class of 2025 is 1490-1560, which would put your son at the very bottom of this range, and I think Wharton is generally more competitive than the other schools at Penn.
https://admissions.upenn.edu/admissions-and-financial-aid/what-penn-looks-for/incoming-class-profile
Whether or not your son should submit will likely depend on the overall strength of his application and how is application and test score compare to applicant pool from his school, region, and demographic. You mentioned your son’s counselor. That counselor will probably have much more useful insight and information than anything anyone can provide here.
How many unhooked kids does Penn usually take from your son’s school? What were their qualifications, compared to your son’s? How do kids from your son’s school and with similar qualifications usually fair? Does his score pale in comparison to other applicants from his school/region/demographic who get admitted? Or is it up there with the kids who have a decent chance of admission? No one here has that information.
That SAT range is the middle 50% of those that submitted scores, not of the whole class.
2 Likes
I agree with this. Anecdotal from only a couple of local private HS, BUT–TO did not do too well last yr at the selective schools, likely because the score ranges for the class were on the school profiles (as they are every year), so it was quite clear that many if not most students had a score (which they did, especially at private schools who encourage early testing in fall of junior year, precovid for 21s, AND test centers opened again with some limits for their fall of senior year). To me, the OP’s score is submittable because the lack of it will cause the assumption it is lower than it actually is!
1 Like
2021-22 numbers are going to be skewed with TO.
But back to 2020-21, when 100% submitted SAT/ACT scores, 710 is exactly the 25th percentile and 780 is near the 775 midpoint of 25-75%. I’d probably not submit it.
1 Like
Sure. But I’m not sure if or how this changes the analysis, or even in which direction.
For what it’s worth, I thought your suggestion above about the identical applicants might be worth exploring . . .
- What if identically qualified students attending the same the same school (no hooks, no geographical or demographic advantages, both with 1490 SAT, same everything) apply to Penn, and one submits and one doesn’t?
- For context, assume they attend a high achiever high school where three or four unhooked kids are admitted to Penn each year, and that, beyond the test score, they have excellent applications overall.
- Because it is often the case at such schools, also assume that a significant number of applicants from the school will not only have excellent applications, they will also have SAT scores of 1550+.
- Who between the two identical students has the better chance of acceptance, and why?
My anecdotes differ from yours. While it was a challenging admission year generally, I am aware of a number of unhooked kids from highly competitive high schools who were accepted test optional to highly selective schools. The thing they all seem to have had in common was that they had excellent qualifications even without test scores. In comparison, TO kids with solid but less somewhat less impressive non-test qualifications didn’t fare as well.
A number of posters seem to think that AO’s assume that kids who don’t submit are hiding lower test scores, and that this hurts the application. My question is:
For otherwise excellent applicants who would be a good fit for the school, why would the AO care?
It is not as if an unsubmitted score is going to pull down the average.
If the test scores really don’t matter, then why do AO’s accept them at all? While I do not agree with it, I understand what the University of California system is doing. The system has decided that standardized tests have no value in determining success at their institutions, so they are not using them at all. That makes sense. But why would a university admissions office accept scores at all unless that office does actually think they are useful for determining success at their institution? And if they are a factor with some candidates, then why wouldn’t the absence of test scores be at least noted with TO candidates?
How many unhooked kids does Penn take from your children’s school? Is that actually a large number? There is clearly a separate set of rules for those kids that went to expensive prep schools and those kids who went to public schools, and it appears that extends to whether to go TO. Prep school kids have a lot of advantages in the admissions process not available to the children of the other 99%.
Kids from public high schools, especially from middle class towns, face all kinds of challenges in the admissions processes, including questions about the quality of their high school. One way to validate a strong academic record from a high school that sends one kid to Penn every 5 years (as opposed to 5 kids every one year), is to provide a strong SAT score.
2 Likes
Admittedly, I am guilty in part, but perhaps we can get back to focussing on the OP. Why some colleges are test blind and how TO will impact colleges other than Penn was not the discussion the OP had in mind. While those topics are valid, there are other threads devoted to them.
This article is from Inside Higher Ed.
I find this interesting. From the article:
- About one-third of admissions officers said that the pandemic did not change whom they admitted. Thirty-seven percent said it changed whom they admitted, but in a minor way.
- Over 95 percent of campuses used test-optional or test-blind admissions this year.
- Of those that adopted test-optional or test-blind admissions this year, 55 percent say they admitted more Black, Latinx and Native American students.
- Three-quarters of admissions officers favor continuing test optional indefinitely.
- More than 80 percent of officers say they are very likely to increase recruitment for minority and transfer students, while approximately three-quarters (78 percent) say the same for full-time undergraduates and first-generation college students.
Unless this student is hooked, I wouldn’t submit this score, because it’s Wharton, not just Penn. If he submits it, I think it’s a ding. If he doesn’t, will they be more forgiving, bearing in mind potential factors such as loss of family income, long term illness, or family death due to the last 18+ months? Again, we don’t know.
@mtmind already provided stats of Wharton students upthread. It appears being female and URM are positive factors affecting admission. My thought remains, if indeed it’s the case, that being a male ORM with a test score at the bottom of the middle 50% isn’t helpful.
3 Likes
I think this entire thread is focused on Penn’s TO policy, since that was what the OP asked. We are offering the OP different perspectives on the decision of whether an applicant to Penn should provide tests. I do not think there is a formula-driven, correct answer to this question for every school, and especially not for Penn. Others feel differently.
1 Like
Assuming the OP is upper middle class or above, and unhooked, I can’t see how a 710 will help. 780 math is neutral (if OP is in the running based on transcript and rigor, a 780 won’t add anything). Sure, if TO the adcoms might assume that the scores are perhaps even lower, but in the end scores are a very small part of the application to Wharton anyway. I wouldn’t submit them, better to be judged against the TO kids I think.
1 Like
An interesting question and perhaps worth a thread, but not really at issue here, so I’ll leave this and most your other questions and comments aside.
This is true of kids at high performing high schools, public or private, but these same kids face some disadvantages in the application process, too. This is really my point. When it comes to deciding whether or not submit scores, the applicant’s context - their school, demographic, region, etc. - very much matters. One cannot really look at a middle 50% range and pronounce that scores above X should submit, and scores below X should not. It really depends on factors that go well a mid-50% range.
This is why I hope that the OP will take the various pronouncements and theories (including mine) with a large grain of salt. In my opinion, the OP’s question cannot be meaningfully answered without information which goes well beyond what is available here.
I agree, but would emphasize that it isn’t just the college that matters, it is also the OP’s high school, region, demographic, etc.
Thanks so much everyone for the inputs to my question (SAT 1490 to submit or not to UPenn), this really helps.
Considering test scores from his geography and type of schools to Penn ED will likely be high and testing was available, so both submitting and not submitting will work against him as many of you have pointed out above. So he is now thinking that it is not good idea to ED to Penn as high risk of rejection. Rather improve credentials (including retest in December, along with other materials) and then do RD.
He is also interested in Pomona, do you think Pomona is better ED option ? I have heard it is equally tough to get into as Penn but not sure if Test Score submission has same impact there as in Penn. Let me know.
Thanks!
I do not think applying TO will work against him at Penn…. there is no evidence to support that opinion (the fact that penn accepted a higher proportion of test submitters last year does NOT necessarily mean TO applicants were disadvantaged).
I don’t think retaking the test is a good way to spend his time at this point…as I’m sure he has hard senior year classes, and many schools to research so he can write high level supplemental essays. What ‘other materials’ would be available for an RD submission?
What does his HS GC say about submitting test scores at Penn?
I think that the chance of an acceptance to Wharton in RD is very very low, regardless of the applicant’s test scores or sending in test scores or not.
2 Likes
I agree with @Mwfan1921. If his grades, test scores, EC’s recommendations, etc. are all exceptional, then submitting test optional to Penn may not “work against him.” Penn claims that “students who are unable or choose not to submit test scores will not be at a disadvantage in the admissions process,” and there is no evidence that they are fibbing. So despite the speculation and suspicion expressed here, it may make sense to take Penn at its word. Of course it is a tough admission even if he isn’t disadvantaged.
Pomona hasn’t yet released its acceptance rates for this last round, but it was at about 7% before test optional so it a safe bet it is even lower now. As for whether Pomona treats TO differently than Penn, it is hard to say without knowing all the numbers, but it looks like Pomona admitted about 43% of its class test optional.
Students admitted to the Class of 2025 are academically exceptional. Of those who attend high schools that rank students, 91% are in the top 10% of their class. Students applied under a test-optional policy (ACT or SAT) this year, and 57% of newly admitted students submitted a standardized test score. Pomona College Announces New Class of 2025 | Pomona College in Claremont, California - Pomona College
An aside about Pomona . . . Anecdotally, it seems to be an extremely tough nut to crack for unhooked kids from top schools/high performing demographics. From the high performing school with which I am most familiar, unhooked kids have had much better luck at Penn than Pomona.
This is outside the scope of your question so ignore it if you’d like, but from a “fit” perspective it is surprising to see Penn/Wharton and Pomona as your sons two top choices ED choices. Aside from both being prestigious it seems like they would be very different college experiences. Of the Claremont Colleges, it seems like there would be a bit closer overlap with Claremont McKenna and Penn/Warton.
1 Like