Submitted: Virginia should become independent

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Virginia
1

<p>Submitted for your consideration: That the University of Virginia should sever its legal and financial ties with the Commonwealth. </p>

<p>Reasons for this:</p>

<li><p>Barely 8% of operating funds now come from state taxpayers, yet the General Assembly still makes the rules for the University. A basic issue of fairness. </p></li>
<li><p>Being released from the 2/3 in-state admissions proportion would greatly improve standards as well as finances. An issue of practicality & utility. </p></li>
<li><p>Virginia already has a disproportionately-large number of publicly-financed alternatives such as VCU, JMU, ODU, W&M, VPI (Tech), GMU, etc etc. In-state students who cannot make the grade at UVA already have a wealth of alternatives. </p></li>
<li><p>Improved standards would help the Commonwealth of Virginia retain its very best students, many of whom now leave the state (some permanently) to attend Ivy League-caliber colleges and universities. </p></li>
<li><p>Improved standards–and the attendant publicity–would attract new businesses, start-ups, and innovation to the region and the Commonwealth. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Add your own reasons below, or take issue :)</p>

2

<ol>
<li>8% is quite a bit when you think about it...and i actually think that number is wrong</li>
<li>why would it improve standards? Virginia schools are some of the finest public schools in the nation, not to mention the private schools...consistantly, Fairfax County Public Schools rank in the top 200 schools across the nation, some in the top 50 (TJ), and Loundon is quickly following in suit. </li>
<li>Why on earth should Virginian students be penalized simply because we have top notch schools? We do not have a "wealth" of opportunities, because VT, W&M, and UVA are the top three schools for us, but they all have very different curriculums, settings, and majors...this is like saying Berkley should be made private because CA kids have Irvine, San Diego, LA, ect...the other schools on that list don't compare to those three schools, but the fact of the matter is that no one school can offer programs to every student, so there needs to be variety...if you take away UVA from Virginian students, our options are cut short simply because OOS kids cant get into other top schools</li>
<li>I'll give you a hint...79% of my high school class stayed IS, and 6% of those left chose not to attend college/other plans...and why on earth would they leave when they have UVA in their backyard? Making UVA private wouldnt necessarily improve the standards, and there is absolutly no way to prove that because rising tuition costs might force VA residents to look at OOS state schools, thus pushing Virginians even more out the door...or, Virginians might not want to attend a private school, and that too would force them to look elsewhere...no one in their right mind would pass up a chance at UVA for another top-25 school that isnt Ivy...and if they get accepted to an Ivy, they deserve to go and should take the opporunity</li>
<li>there is absolutely no way to predict that...again, the move to private might put people off...frankly, it would look bad to turn a top notch public STATE school into a private school for the sake of money/fame/better applicants</li>
</ol>

<p>frankly, TJ created the university in order to give men the opportunity to study courses/majors outside of the typical ones of his day...today, this belief can be seen as it gives an opporunity to Virginians to get a top-notch education in somewhere other than OOS or private schools...just because OOS kids cant have UVA in their backyard, or make the grades to get into UVA, doesnt mean Virginians have to suffer...UVA has been doing this for a long time, and successfully</p>

<p>leave this issue alone, seriously</p>

3

<p>shoebox,</p>

<p>As a native Virginian and UVA alum with long and strong family ties to the University, I find your reponse disappointingly parochial and short-sighted: </p>

<ol>
<li><p>8% may be a lot of money in absolute terms (about $140mm, I think), but this is down from 25-30% not too long ago. Furthermore, why should 8% guarantee Virginia residents 2/3 of the student pool?
If you analyze why the University does not rank higher in the USNWR rankings, you will see that many of the challenges can be solved with more money, eg, Faculty Resources (too many classes with 50+ students, too few classes with <20 students, better faculty/student ratio) where the U ranks 35th and Financial Resources (spending per student )where the U ranks 56th. Part of the way to more money comes from outside of the Old Dominion. </p></li>
<li><p>The state of Virginia does have some terrific public high schools, but there are certainly many other states with fine high school systems and students as well. Your response is classic "Not-Invented-Here" thinking.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Also for OOS students, you must recognize that the University already gets 9000+ applications annually (vs 6000 IS). On the traditional academic measuring sticks, the quality of the applicant pool is stronger OOS. But probably most troubling to me is how many OOS students see UVA as a backup to the other top schools that they are applying to. If you think a large number of non-legacy, very highly talented OOS students consider UVA as their number one choice, you are fooling yourself. (And as a proud alum, it really pains me to admit that.)</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Look at North Carolina. UVA and W&M may be more highly regarded than UNC (but not by a lot) and the other state schools of NC, but NC also has several very highly regarded private alternatives (Duke, Wake, and others). Virginia has none. </p></li>
<li><p>Your comment about "no one in their right mind" choosing a non-Ivy Top 25 school is just plain uninformed. Like you, my son just completed his college process and the big surprise of his college search was how many GREAT alternatives there were outside of the state of Virginia. The University is truly a great school and a fabulous place to spend four years but there are many, many very high quality alternatives. Your comment belies a lack of perspective as I don't think you realize just how good the following non-IVY Top 25 schools are: Caltech, Stanford, MIT, Chicago, Wash U, Northwestern, Hopkins, Rice, Vanderbilt, Emory, Notre Dame, UC Berkeley, Carnegie Mellon, Georgetown and Univ. of Michigan. A Virginia (or non-Virginian) choosing any of these schools would be making an excellent choice and potentially a superior one over UVA. Mostly, it all goes to personal fit, but these schools have a lot to offer and to think otherwise is wrong.</p></li>
<li><p>I agree with you that going from public to private would look bad and elitist. But I actually favor the University remaining a public institution. It can achieve its goals of reaching a Top 15 ranking among national universities, but if UVA wants to truly play with the top schools in America, it won't get there with a student body that is 2/3 from the state of Virginia.</p></li>
</ol>

4

<p>UVA represents just how great a state school can be and sets the bar higher for the rest of the nation. It shows that you don't need to go to Harvard or Yale and pay 40,000 to get that level of education. Besides, can UVA just decide to sever ties with Virginia?</p>

5

<p>Yeah, **** UVA if it costs anything more than 10,000 dollars a year.</p>

6

<p>dajada-
very good argument back...
1. then maybe we should fight our General Assembly and push for higher funding...its not like its dissapearing, its just more and more tax money is going to roads and welfare systems, which is sad
2. im just trying to point out that its not like UVA is taking idiots from IS...there truely are some gifted kids...also, these gifted kids might not be able to afford OOS or private, so why take away their top school?
3. yes, but duke/wf/ect were founded privately...UVA is still a state school and should be left that way, just like UNC-CH/ UC-B, UC-LA, UMich, ect are all being left public
4. well, by Ivy i meant stanford, caltech, MIT, g'Town, ect...should have added those in...i basically meant any top 25 private school...as for UC-B and UMich, the other top public schools, you can make a superior guess by saying most kids who have the choice between UVA and the top public schools will pick UVA, soley because of IS tuition, location, ect..im not saying ALL, and im sure plenty move OOS, but its a wise choice to chose UVA
5. agreed...but, to remain a state school, it seems like the 2/3 number is a fair number...like i said, you dont see a ton of OOS kids getting into UC-B, UT-A, UMich, ect, because they too say "hey, we're a state school, taxpayers get preference"....if the darn General Assembly stepped up their funding, we wouldnt have an issue...so why penalize Virginian students for a crappy government?</p>

<p>ps - maybe someone should print out a copy of this thread and theres been a few others on the same topic, and send it to our state legislature...UVA's problems on this issue stem from a lack of state funding, and that needs to change...our future doctors/lawyers/teachers/ect are too far important to be wasting away, UVA is too much of a great state school to go private, and frankly, its more important than our roads/welfare systems/ect...its hard to say that, but education should be #1 after other major fundings</p>

7

<p>Does the educational experience change that much if UVA stops taking in so many VA kids? I doubt a minor change in student make-up will justify the huge price hike that comes with a private UVA.</p>

8

<p>well, none of here know that for sure whether or not going private will make the experience better or worse so i wont even answer the question...however, just about every VA student that goes there that I know says its a great atmosphere because its mostly all top-notch VA students, mixed with Internationals, and those who are OOS are great because they have intellectual drive and success (hence why they got in OOS)...
and yes, it might not justify the price hike, but like i said, theres no way to know if more or less VA kids would attend a private UVA, especially with VT and W&M right around the corner...</p>

<p>this is a hard subject because im IS and are tryin to transfer and are looking forward to the IS advantage...but still, in my eyes, even if i was OOS, i still would object to UVA going private just because it would bring so much change to UVA, good and bad, that it wouldnt be the same UVA we all love so much</p>

9

<p>I am just going to say that I would not be attending UVA next year if it was not for the fact that it was a public university, and the cheaper tuition that comes with it. I am sure that I am not the only one.</p>

10

<p>I'm from Oklahoma, and my high school is an aberration in this state where most of my peers go OOS for college. In fact, most of the top students in Okla go away for college. The problem now? No one being educated at a prestigious institution typically returns. Hence, Oklahoma is disabled when it comes to retaining a highly trained professional workforce. Trust me, all I get when talking about going away for college is how I am "morally obligated to return". If the Univ of Oklahoma were as strong as UVA, the situation would be quite different. And Oklahoma wouldn't be so bad.</p>

<p>To me, the commonwealth is strong BECAUSE of its strong ties to UVA. Taking away a great state institution simply because it does well doesn't make sense. The better UVA retains state students, the better Virginia becomes. And that was from an OOSer!</p>

11

<p>This topic comes up fairly often around here (College Confidential). Interestingly, it doesn't come up very often at UVA. We're public. We'll always be public. </p>

<p>I've</a> posted the data (and source) for budget info a number of times. </p>

<p>If you want a truely interesting story to discuss, read up on the eVa purchasing system that the state created. As part of the charter agreement, we agreed to get on board with it. This</a> blog post and this</a> follow up are good places to start (follow the links in the posts to newspaper articles).</p>

12

<p>Wanted to add, but Dean J beat me to it, that no one should panic at the prospect of UVA's going private. It is indeed not going to happen. The General Assembly (and by extension the Virginia taxpayer) know a good thing when they see it, and in this case it's getting something for nothing. Not "nothing" you say? Well, the 8.5% of support ought to buy 8.5% of the places then. 66.6 less 8.5 equals 58.1 and that 58.1% is what Virginia taxpayers are getting for free.*</p>

<p>As an alumnus, however, I'm dismayed to watch the University's continuous slide in the rankings. (For better or worse, I'm using the notorious USN&WR as the example here.) When I graduated, Virginia held the sole #1 position among state-supported universities. Berkeley was #2. A few years later, Virginia was tied for #1 with Berkeley. Then it was #2 behind Berkeley, but still ahead of Michigan. Now it's tied with Michigan. The trajectory is clear and the trajectory is negative. UCLA and UNC are waiting in the wings. What is gained by this? </p>

<p>Even when I was an undergrad there, and Virginia was ranked first, I was shocked and dismayed at the poor intellectual quality of many of the in-state students. They couldn't speak, they couldn't write, and they couldn't care less. Mind you, there were also brilliant in-state students too, but meanwhile all of the OOS students were bright. Near as I could tell, many of the IS students were there to party. These students should be placed in another of Virginia's many institutions of higher education, not its flagship university. Places there should be given to more deserving students, whether IS or OOS. </p>

<p>Most of the other points I'd have made here were amply and capably covered by dajada with his excellent post. Just one more thing...</p>

<p>*Of course, nothing's free, and this brings me to my last point. As a benefactor of the University, I have come to realize that the more money I give, the less the General Assembly provides. Not in a one-to-one proportion, of course, but in such a way that it has occurred to me that I am enabling the situation I have described and so I have lately chosen to limit my contribution to $1000 per year (I have two other alma maters) until and unless I see the trends I mention above reversing. </p>

<p>In all seriousness, I'm not expecting the University of Virginia to sever its ties with the Commonwealth. For one thing, the Commonwealth would never allow it. I'm just looking for a little more equity in the arrangement, and just possibly, better standards at the University.</p>

13

<p>As a double 'Hoo I agree with Marsden. And the slide in the rankings won't be helped by automatic admission of community college students and "scholar athletes".</p>

14

<p>The US News & World report methodology changes frequently to ensure movement on the list. In addition, some schools (not naming names) have worked the rankings by submitting "projected" numbers that don't necessarily line up with actual ones.</p>

<p>Maybe we would have slid if the methodology hadn't changed, but we just don't know.</p>

15

<p>Dean J,</p>

<p>I think you are referring to the Graduation and Retention ranks in the USNWR rankings which account for 20% of a school's overall rank. Other institutions may be cooking their numbers, but in this category, the U does pretty well with a ranking of 14th. </p>

<p>Of more concern, however, is the Faculty Resources (20%of USNWR score) where the U ranks 35th and the Financial Resources (10%) where the U ranks a scary-bad 56th. These numbers are what put the University farther down the USNWR list than we all would like. In order to improve these ranks, the University needs to hire more faculty, build more classroom space, provide more and smaller classes, and install more technology. Some of this is being addressed with the plan to expand the South Lawn behind Cabell and across JPA, but these things take time… and a lot, a lot, a lot of money. </p>

<p>The conundrum is that this is happening at a time when the Virginia General Assembly is itself squeezed for money and it is unlikely that the state will come up with more dollars. Casteen, Sandbridge, et al have recognized this and are raising money as fast as they can and gaining more autonomy from the state in order to be able to more efficiently run the school. The U is fortunate to have such leaders, because without their vision and work, the U could have been in a lot of difficulty further down the road. </p>

<p>I agree that the school will nominally always remain a public institution, but the decline in the state's funding and the University's self-reliant financial posture will result in a more private operating style. This may someday lead to/permit changes in the 67/33 IS/OOS ratio which, in my humble opinion, is the single biggest qualitative obstacle to the University truly being considered an academic equal to many of America's top colleges.</p>

16

<p>
[QUOTE]
I think you are referring to the Graduation and Retention ranks in the USNWR rankings which account for 20% of a school's overall rank. Other institutions may be cooking their numbers, but in this category, the U does pretty well with a ranking of 14th.

[/QUOTE]
There's another number that sticks out as odd at another school, especially in light of the athletic program. A freedom of information request would confirm it, but I don't care about US News enough to go after that. Who knows...next year, they may change the methodology again and the list will reshuffle again.</p>

<p>I agree with your later points...while I sometimes lament the tough decisions I have to make, I can't imagine how I'd fare under the pressure Larry Sandridge and Pres. Casteen are under to fund operations here.</p>

17

<p>
[quote]
There's another number that sticks out as odd at another school, especially in light of the athletic program.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Berkeley reporting 99% of its students in the top 10% of their high school class is my guess.</p>

<p>I think UVa's law school provides a good model. They take 40% of their students from Virginia and consistently maintain a US News ranking among the nation's top 10 law schools. UVa's law school is almost always ranked higher than law schools such as Duke, Georgetown, Cornell, Northwestern and Berkeley; although, this year the law school is tied with Berkeley.</p>

18

<p>
[quote]
Berkeley reporting 99% of its students in the top 10% of their high school class is my guess.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yeah, I heard that number is totally cooked up especially with the number of athletes they have who are NOT in the top 10% of their class.</p>

<p>I'm glad there are a few fellow UVA alums here on College Confidential who are charged up with what's going on at The University. I have several thoughts on these issues, but I'll have to come back to this thread later since I'm in the middle of work.</p>

19

<p>
[quote]
The conundrum is that this is happening at a time when the Virginia General Assembly is itself squeezed for money and it is unlikely that the state will come up with more dollars.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>IMHO, the real conundrum is that the squeeze was put on the University as the Commonwealth was working its way toward a $2 Billion biennial budget surplus. Ugh.</p>

20

<p>marsden - that number/fact is highly skewed...state surplus does not necessarily mean that the money goes completly unused, but instead, the surplus means that there is simply money gained that was not anticipated in the budget, or was suppossed to be used...this money can be extra tax money, or a road project didnt cost as much as they thought, ect...most of the surplus money however goes into either a) debts to the federal gov't/other states/ect that arn't included in the budget each year b) put aside to aquire interest
some years they have a huge surplus, some small...but its hard to say that every year there is $2B left over, that hasn't been done in years for VA...plus, that money is nice to have sitting somewhere so that incase in future years something drastic happens, VA won't up and die</p>

<p>the state has been in severe debt in the recent past, and since warner/kaine have come in, that debt has been severly reduced, thus allowing the states economy to not faulter...so, surpluses are "factual" in the sense that all money going in and out of the state has a purpose, it just might not be bluntly stated...
i agree though, some of that money definently should be allocated for education, but don't think that theres an endless supply of money just being cast aside...maybe they should say that 10% of the surplus each year should be allocated to the higher education system, and the money be handed out proportional to the university's population (meaning in amount recieved: VT > UVA > VCU > W&M >.....ect) and 10% of $2B is something like $2M, and while even though it would be farther divided up, thats an additional few hundred thousand per each school that could be used for scholarships, fees, ect...it doesn't seem like a lot, but this should be on top of an increased budget for public VA schools...the 10% is also a HUGE chunk of the surplus, which is why its better to leave it as a percentage instead of a set number, because there might not be any surplus some years</p>