Submitting without letting other schools see?

Applying to College
21

<p>I remembered see one admissions officer posting about this though he talks about other schools focusing on yield, rather than his own.
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/4909356-post28.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/4909356-post28.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I think if a student puts a lot of effort into his application and essays it can go a long way toward showing a school that it is more than just a safety. Explaining why you are a good fit, as Tokenadult suggests, is likely to make a good impression.</p>

22

<p>"I contend that the colleges have figured out that they are better off simply admitting the strongest candidates who show up"
token, with all respect, it was a known fact a couple of years ago that colleges could "see" which colleges an applicant sent their applications to, if the student checked off multiple colleges on the Common app and hit the submit button. I learned about this 3 years ago from parents here on CC. Whether this is still the case is the question at hand. Not too many people implicitly trust the Collegeboard to be truthful, after the SAT debacle last year which hurt many applicants. In addition, I contend, as do others, that admissions decisions are made not only with the intent of "admitting the strongest candidates", but also with an eye to yield. Scattergrams suggest this also. If an exceptionally strong candidate [somone who has stats greater than 75% of last years admitted class ] applies to a school as a safety, which all students should do, it is very possible that the admissions staff will think to themselves- "He'll never go here if he's accepted at XX college, so we should reject him in favor of a student who is more likely to accept our offer of admittance." I will tell you that when the admission decisions came in for my son, he was accepted at every college [13] he applied to using the common app as I had suggested he do--one at a time. Yes, he was a strong candidate, and his essay was terrific, but he was rejected at Stanford after being deferred SCEA, so he did not WOW. Was this based soley on his application, or in part on the fact that the colleges did not know where else he was applying?</p>

<p>"especially on the factual point of whether colleges even know what other colleges applicants are applying to."
Do you actually think a college admissions officer would let this be know, especially after colleges were ordered by the government in the 90"s not to discuss admissions policies with each other?</p>

<p>I maintain that it is in the student's best interest to not let colleges know where else he/ she is applying.</p>

23

<p>
[quote]
I learned about this 3 years ago from parents here on CC.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What evidence did they point to? I read a lot of factual statements here on CC, some of which are contradicted by other factual statements here. </p>

<p>As you note, you are not sure whether or not that is current information. I invite participants currently working in college admission offices (who must be as busy at the moment as any employed people in America) to post what the current reality is in their admission office. Do they routinely know </p>

<p>a) where else their applicants have submitted test scores, </p>

<p>b) where else their applicants have submitted the core part of the Common Application, </p>

<p>or </p>

<p>c) where else applicants have applied through some other source of information? </p>

<p>If they know, do they care? </p>

<p>
[quote]
I maintain that it is in the student's best interest to not let colleges know where else he/ she is applying.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You have been consistent in taking that position, yes. I still doubt that position, in part because I know of some counterexamples--statements by alumni interviewers that they considered a student a stronger candidate for admission at one of {H Y P M S} because the student indicated that he or she was applying to other colleges in that set. Rather than try to do armchair psychoanalysis of every college admission committee in the country, I'd like to hear from some current admission officers. Indeed, the very absence of mention of this issue in published books about the college admission process, including "kiss and tell" books by former admission officers, suggests to me that this is not an important issue. Much more important is for the student to be a STRONG candidate for admission and to be proactive in showing a fit between the college and the student when filling out each application form.</p>

24

<p>I agree that it is highly unlikely that it will matter to HYPMS that a student has applied to others in that group. I think that it could matter to schools like Duke, Tufts, Rice, and a number of LACs if a strong student has also applied to Ivy League schools. I should add that this is one of those subjective things that could impact a decision even if it is not an official factor in the decision. As a result, I can see no advantage in letting the admissions office at Tufts know you are applying to Harvard, and a possible disadvantage in doing so.</p>

25

<p>^ Exactly. "Tufts syndrome" is the perfect example.</p>

26

<p>"What evidence did they point to?" You would have to do searches dating back over 3-4 years, As I have said, it may not be the case now, but if you are set on trying to prove me wrong, have at it.
The same "evidence" that experienced parents on CC relate to newbies. Wisdom, from their own experiences when their children were applying to college. I don't see a written requirement in the CC guidelines that posters have to refer to specific posts wriitten on specific dates as "evidence" in order to pass on advise.</p>

27

<p>I'll repeat what I said previously- if a college wants to know, it can figure it out without using the Common App. Just send it and be done. </p>

<p>Incidentally, I strongly dislike the term Tufts Syndrome. It's not the university that comes to mind when discussing yield protection.</p>

28

<p>
[quote]
if a college wants to know, it can figure it out without using the Common App.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Where is the evidence for this?</p>

29

<p>^^Token, again with all due respect- What's going on? Is this a court of law? Are posters, such as myself or warbler, going to be required to cite chapter and verse with every post we make, especially when we are expressing an OPINION such as this" I maintain that it is in the student's best interest to not let colleges know where else he/ she is applying"
in order to not run into the "evidence police"? Does your position as a moderator entitle you to start arguments with long time parent posters and question what they advise, because you don't believe it, when you have no proof that their advise may negatively impact a students application? If you wish to run parents who time and again have been thanked for their advice and wise counsel, off this forum, you may get your wish.</p>

<p>"You have been consistent in taking that position, yes. I still doubt that position, in part because I know of some counterexamples. "
Great, so let's see YOUR evidence. See how insulting this question is?</p>

30

<p>Menlopark, thank you! I do agree that as parents we only want the best for our children and I have found lot's of very good info on this site. Our kids need to go into this process with their eyes wide open</p>

31

<p>tokenadult,</p>

<p>All they have to do is to look at the your financial forms for aid.</p>

32

<p>I'm asking entirely so that people will make their decisions about what to do based on reliable information. So again I ask, where is there reliable information that colleges routinely know</p>

<p>a) where else their applicants have submitted test scores,</p>

<p>b) where else their applicants have submitted the core part of the Common Application,</p>

<p>or</p>

<p>c) where else applicants have applied through some other source of information?</p>

<p>If they know, do they care?</p>

<p>That's all I'm asking. Where could a journalist writing an expose article on the evil practices of college admission offices (for example) or a parent trying to take the most prudent approach to guiding a child's college applications (which is what I think motivates most people here) find out exactly what college admission officers know at the level of individual applicants? How can we find out what college admission committees typically think about where else students apply, if indeed they know about that? (Could it be that one kind of college cares where else a student applies, and another kind of college does not? If so, which kind of college is which?) </p>

<p>So far there is a dearth of information here. There are a lot of statements about what could be so, but none that I've seen yet from the keyboard of a current admission officer. Maybe someone would like to try a Google search to see what authoritative sources record policies of </p>

<p>colleges, </p>

<p>test publishers, </p>

<p>financial aid clearinghouses, </p>

<p>the Common Application, </p>

<p>and other relevant organizations. </p>

<p>After all that, there would still be the issue of impact. Supposing for the sake of argument that </p>

<p>1) colleges carefully compile a list of what other colleges each other student is applying to, from multiple sources of evidence, </p>

<p>and </p>

<p>2) colleges care about this a lot, so that discussions in committee regularly take the form of "Too bad. We could admit this student, but we can see right here that he's applying to College Y," </p>

<p>what would a student do about it? If colleges are going to know for sure where you are applying, the answer to the question posed in the title to this thread is "There's nothing you can do about it." If colleges are that knowledgeable, and that concerned, maybe the strategic thing for each student to do is to apply to different colleges. But that's why I keep asking for sources of information--until we know with greater specificity what the facts are, how can any of us who have compassion on this year's applicants give them sound advice? </p>

<p>Links or citations to published sources greatly desired. What are the facts here?</p>

33

<p>Token, colleges DC have access to this information if the student answers the question asked on some applications forms-" Where else are you applying"!
Why would colleges ask this question if they did not care?
What can a student do about it? NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION.</p>

34

<p>I think you are also forgetting the very chilling effect the antitrust action taken by the Justice Dept in the early 90's against 23 colleges charged with price fixing, because they met annually to fix the financial aid offers for students applying to multiple colleges. That antitrust action, in which those colleges were forbidden to meet to discuss individual students, is likely to have a continued chilling effect on any potential disclosure by admission offices as to if or how they might know where else students are applying.</p>

35

<p>Token,</p>

<p>With all due respect, why do you keep fighting this issue? If you don't believe what everyone is telling you, then just don't believe it and go about your routine and don't worry about it. This info is just to help each other out. You have to take every advise with a grain of salt.</p>

36

<p>p.s. token,</p>

<p>your asking for sources and citations. My experience has been through my own personal phone calls to colleges, but you choose not to accept my answer and there is nothing that I can do about that. I think most everyone else's has also been through personal experience.</p>

37

<p>
[quote]
tokenadult,</p>

<p>All they have to do is to look at the your financial forms for aid.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>can i NOT fill up those questions about where else I'm applying to for aid - fill forms separately to each school? At least, I didn't mention any other school when applying for Yale SCEA cos it's EA after all - I hadn't made up my mind yet which RD colleges to apply to.</p>

38

<p>Here's my FAQ about what to do if colleges ask: </p>

<p>You could quote chapter and verse from the Statement of Principles of Good Practice of the National Association for College Admission Counseling:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nacacnet.org/NR/rdonlyres/9A4F9961-8991-455D-89B4-AE3B9AF2EFE8/0/SPGP.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nacacnet.org/NR/rdonlyres/9A4F9961-8991-455D-89B4-AE3B9AF2EFE8/0/SPGP.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>


</p></li>
</ol>

<p>and once you have done that, you could say, based on whatever is the truth, "Not wanting this to be construed as a statement of my order of preference, I am applying to"</p>

<p>a) "other colleges that appear to offer some of the same features as your college"</p>

<p>or</p>

<p>b) "a varied list of colleges to ensure that I carefully consider what is the best fit between me and each college"</p>

<p>or</p>

<p>c) "small liberal arts colleges with a focus on undergraduate teaching" (or whatever summary characteristic applies to all colleges on your list)</p>

<p>or</p>

<p>d) "a list of colleges developed according to policies of my high school counseling office"</p>

<p>or</p>

<p>e) "[actual list] but this list should not be taken to be in preference order"</p>

<p>or</p>

<p>f) "a list of colleges that I would rather not mention here, so that we take extra care to follow NACAC principles of good practice."</p>

<p>Your own creativity can probably come up with some more choices. I do NOT see this question on many of the college application forms I have downloaded from the Web this year.</p>

39

<p>


</p>

<p>Hi, guitars101, I'm curious about this, especially, now because not all of the answers posted in this thread suggest the same strategy to an inquiring student. Maybe the student has to do something unusual when applying for financial aid, or maybe the student has to do something unusual when sending test scores, or maybe the student has to do something unusual when sending in the Common Application (which is not accepted by all colleges, but is accepted by a few hundred). But I'm still trying to find out what a student should do who is concerned about this. If a student is GRAVELY concerned about colleges knowing where else he is applying (why?) it sounds, from this thread, as if colleges have lots of sources of information to draw on. </p>

<p>This is a season of the year fraught with anxiety on the part of applicants and buried in busyness for admission officers. When I make direct inquiries to local admission officers about general issues of policy, I usually make them at a different time of the year. </p>

<p>I take your statement quoted above to mean that you have asked colleges specifically "Do you know where else your applicants are applying?" and I take your earlier statement about financial aid forms to mean that they know that from a student's financial aid applications. Is it your recommendation that a student do something unusual in applying for financial aid so that colleges don't know where else the student is applying? (How?) </p>

<p>To sum up my recommendation for the OP, and for other onlookers who wonder about this, don't worry about it. My considered opinion, based on everything said so far in the thread, is that high school students have better issues to worry about than what a college might do if a college knows the student is applying to other colleges. (It is generally a very good idea to apply to more than one college.) But I am willing to modify my opinion on the basis of more specific information detailing the impact of a college knowing versus a college merely guessing, so I invite everyone reading this to post links or citations to more information on the subject.</p>

40

<p>In post #21 I linked a post by an adcom that mentions a POSITIVE aspect to schools knowing where else a student is applying in addition to the potential negatives involved in yield management. </p>

<p>"This can also have an impact on who gets merit-based financial aid awards. For example, if two schools are seen as equal in terms of quality and fit for a particular student and one of the schools knows the student applied to and was probably admitted by the other, they could offer a merit-based award to induce the student to enroll over their competitor."</p>

<p>Of course a student can opt not to answer the question if it's asked on the application (neither of my d's schools asked on their apps.) If a student wants to avoid giving schools the idea that they are merely safeties s/he can take practical steps to avoid creating that impression. Expressing real interest in the school, visiting, writing a compelling essay and giving the message that a s/he would be a good fit and happy to attend the school are all ways a prospective student can counter the idea that a school is second choice. (These factors are all ENTIRELY under a student's control unlike some other aspects of the process.) Unfortunately I think many kids neglect to do these things because they just don't care enough. If that comes across to the school it certainly doesn't help an applicants case.</p>