My D absolutely fell in love with Barnard - the location, the size, the campus, interesting curriculum, internships, and arts focus. We know you’re not supposed to fall in love with a college until you get accepted, so now that she has submitted ED, any suggested safeties?
What are her stats? Any college similar to Barnard would not be a safety for virtually anyone.
There are no real similar colleges. Barnard is a women’s LAC affiliated with an Ivy located in the middle of a big city. That is truly unique.
I wasn’t suggesting Barnard is a safety, so maybe not phrased well. Just looking for interesting school options - Vassar for example is another school she loved but of course also a reach so not so much what I’m asking about. Barnard came up late in our list making but quickly rose to the top - wondering if there are other unique schools to consider - “hidden gems” - that we should think about.
I find stats a weak gauge honestly - I see so many posts here of test scores and GPA and grades and school clubs on this board and it’s really hard to know what the colleges think because it’s hopefully holistic and there are essays and personal stories to consider.
So Barnard is a reach
Connecticut is a target / safety
Wants northern east coast.
Why does she like Barnard? For example – is she looking for a woman’s college? (If so, she might consider Mills or Agnes Scott – as well as many others). Bryn Mawr is also a good backup for Barnard – I wouldn’t call it a safety, but it’s admission is not as competitive as Barnard, and its ties to Haverford and Swarthmore also provide its students with opportunities somewhat analogous to the Barnard/Columbia relationship)
If she has her heart set on NYC, as my daughter did – my daughter chose a last minute app to Fordham for a near-guaranteed admission to reputable school with a NYC campus.
I’m sure others can come up with suggestions, but it will definitely help to get a better sense of what aspects of Barnard she would hope to replicate at another college.
She actually wasn’t actively looking for a women’s college, although she goes to an all-girls’ high school and loves the supportive environment from both teachers and peers. The relationship with Columbia is extra special because she feels she will get the strong focus on women in leadership, the more open and outspoken environment, yet the diversity of having young men in class and on campus. I know for example, Smith has a relationship with the other colleges in the consortium, yet it they are not in close proximity and during our visit there were no young men visible. Not so at Barnard, which felt pretty blended.
So she loves that unique balance, she loves that it is in NYC, as she has spent time there in the past, loves the humanities focus (liberal arts). She loves the size, the fact that it has a real campus, and a beautiful one at that (continue Columbia’s campus as well). Was amazed at the internship opportunities and really strong career center. And at the end of the day, when visiting every campus, she would get a feel for whether or not she would fit in - students we spoke with were welcoming, seemed bright and engaged with their interests and with people, seemed somewhat sophisticated.
Did your daughter apply specifically to the Lincoln Center campus of Fordham? That is an option we are considering as a ‘near-guaranteed’ admission with some similarities to Barnard - we didn’t get a chance to visit yet, but I’ve heard that most freshman are on the Rose Hill Campus, not LC, and that there isn’t any campus at all to speak of …
We also are contemplating Sarah Lawrence - any thoughts on that? Any other schools on your list that you can share? We’ve got Vassar, Connecticut, and then some uninspiring ones …
Did you daughter get into Barnard and if so, did she end up going?
3 is on point. Barnard is a pretty unique place. So to some extent the list would depend on which aspects are the most important to your D. Because no place will identically match all its features.
in #1 you did not mention “women’s college”. So I guess that’s not a strong preference item (or you forgot!)
Based on what you did:mention in #1:
the location: So urban? Or maybe suburban? Or did you just mean Northeast…
the size: without Columbia: LAC. With Columbia: university. Compromise: smallish university?
the campus: Hmm, what about the campus…? Take-away: small LAC??..
interesting curriculum: so looking for a liberal arts college, whether at an LAC or within a university
internships: many schools offer summer programs. For in-year programs probably urban or suburban is best
arts focus : Most achieved at former (or current) women’s colleges, from what I saw.
FWIW, my D2 entered Barnard ED, but if she had to apply to others her list was going to include Connecticut College and Skidmore (particularly strong arts IIRC). She also screened George Washington U, but she didn’t like it. If your D likes urban more she might like it better. None of these were safeties, just somewhat easier admits than Barnard was at the time.
Two suburban NYC colleges she might look into are Sarah Lawrence and (finally a real safety) SUNY Purchase (big on the arts).
If you answer some of the criteria for yourself you can pop the criteria in CC’s college screener thingy and get some pretty good ideas. I thought it was pretty good when I used it. FWIW.
Note: I wrote this without seeing #4 above, I guess we were writing at the same time…
Thanks - these are great suggestions, and very happy for your daughter!
I think I did answer some of those questions - perhaps we crossed posts : ) Women’s college is not essential, but in particular at Barnard (and I would say Wellesley a bit too), it felt like a personality fit. Campus - it’s beautiful, and there is one (vs. say, NYU, which doesn’t). That’s why I was asking about Fordham LC, because we didn’t get to visit so we don’t really know. LAC or small U is good. Yes, most schools have some form of internships - Barnard’s are very impressive - well, it’s NYC! That made it particularly appealing. That was also a real strength at Connecticut and Vassar, even though they aren’t in a city. Visited Skidmore and Union, didn’t like either. I’ve been suggesting GW for the urban setting and internships, but she is reluctant due to the lack of campus feel (I think BU may be similar). I’ll use the tool you suggested and see what I come up with!
@betwixt – yes, my daughter did attend Barnard; graduated in 2010. She did apply specifically to Fordham - LC and was admitted, with merit aid (though not enouth to match the need-based aid at Barnard)— but she never visited. It was a last-minute thing for her, she added it after all other apps were submitted-- I remember the online application being very easy for her to fill out. She was planning to visit during her spring break of senior year, after she had received an invite to attend an event for admitted students at NYU- but after booking that trip got notice that she had also been admitted to Barnard … so she just never got around to visiting Fordham as a prospie.
My son attended Sarah Lawrence for 2 years – it was a very different environment because of its unusual curriculum, and really had an insular feel to it. My son commented once that he would have loved SLC if only the campus could have been transported and placed in the middle of central park. (Which is pretty close to what Barnard offers… but alas, never an option for my son). The SLC campus is lovely, but definitely an environment for students who want to focus their lives around their college campus. Students do come into NYC on weekends - and my son also used to sometimes come into the city to use the public library – but it wasn’t a regular thing.
If your daughter is interested in attending a LAC with a more insular campus, she might look at Bard. My DD spent a couple of days on the Bard campus, because she studied abroad with a Bard-sponsored program in Russia - and I think the students all first attended a couple of days of orientation at the Bard campus and she said the campus was very beautiful. It’s got a larger enrollment and much larger physical campus than SLC
Other than that my daughter’s safeties were campuses in the UC system, where she was guaranteed admission. She also applied and was admitted to U of Chicago, but obviously not a safety. She applied to Northeastern, probably also a safety - and did visit there – but I think the main attraction was that she had a boyfriend attending school nearby in Boston. (So it was something of an emotional safety to apply there, just to hold out the possibility of attending college near the bf).
What kind of internships is she interested in (prospective major?). My daughter had really great summer internships – but not in NYC and thing she arranged independently, not via any Barnard listings or offerings, so she could easily have had the same from another campus. - she did get a grant from Barnard to pay for the first one. She didn’t do any internships during the school year because she was working at various paying jobs. She did visit GW but didn’t like it or any of the other DC-areas schools she visited.
@calmom - clearly you’ve checked out similar schools! So your daughter applied RD to Fordham and NYU while waiting on ED for Barnard? Our plan is to have everything ready to go and hit the submit button on an EDII and RDs if needed (hoping that won’t be necessary!)
Sounds like your D had different options - my D is a strong student with very good ACT scores (not exceptional) but did online school to pursue a professional ballet career away from home. It limited the number of honors classes she could take junior year and also her APs - she will have 4 APs by the end of senior year. Her essays were very strong I think, and we are targeting schools that would not only be a really good fit for her, but would also that will value her story - perseverance, genuine passion, independence. Barnard strikes me as just such a school. We’re steering away from large universities which tend to be more quantitative in their student assesments, at least to start.
Really interested in your son’s experience at SL - sounds like he transferred out? It seems to be about an hour trip to the city - haven’t found enough photos to get a real sense of it’s layout and whether or not it’s beautiful … What is unusual about the curriculum? What type of students?
A friend’s D is at Fordham Rose Hill and said that the kids their rarely go into NYC - surprising because it is even closer. So I’m wondering if it is also about the types of kids these colleges attract - perhaps SL students aren’t there for the proximity to the city …
Bard looks fantastic in every way but for descriptions of the student body, but I get too much of a feeling that the students are quirky, and in the Princeton Guide lots of references - by the students themselves - to being uber ‘intellectual’ which is a turnoff. Not that being intellectual is, just that students self-describe themselves that way; pat themselves on the back … it comes off as pretentious and not her crowd. Did you ever visit?
My neighbor’s daughter is at Bard 3rd year now and loves it. She’s in the sciences, which isn’t usually what Bard is known for and she finds it very rigorous and is thriving. She is not quirky, attended one of the more staid private high schools for girls in NYC before attending Bard. It is an arty school, though, and does value intellectualism. If you don’t like intellectualism, then Bryn Mawr may not be for you. Check out its description on Niche; it’s known for intellectualism.
SL is only about 30 minutes to the City and when I toured I simply could not understand why the students didn’t go into Manhattan very often. The tourguide recommended to us, the parents and prospectives, that if we were to choose SL that we should try to get into the City once a semester. I was floored . . . Once a semester only?? especially becuase SL runs a van from campus to the front of the Met Museum of Art every Saturday and returns, for free. Shocked. Nonetheless, I was impressed with the emphasis on the arts. Also, if you have a child who really really really needs to define his or her own major, SL is wonderful for that.
Vassar students go into the City in my experience more than the SL kids, it seemed to me, because they seem to have ongoing projects there. Acting, for example, and art internships, publishing, and or legal internships etc. The commuter rail line goes from Poughkeepsie to Grand Central easily and you can get in and out in one day. It’s an early rise and late return, but it’s possible and easy enough to do. For long-term internships, getting an apt share in the City would be better, but if you’re just going in for a weekend to a museum or for a Saturday Broadway show matinee, it’s super simple.
Bennington might be too small and too far afield, but during the winter months they have a long break and many kids go to Boston or NYC or another major city to do work. I love that about Bennington.
Bard is further out from Vassar, and further in from Bennington, but it’s possible to also get to the City, maybe not in and out in one day like Vassar, though. It’s not on the commuter train line, but on Amtrak. Again, it’s possible.
U of Vermont is 5 hours out, a nice size.
Up a bit further, St. Lawrence has transportation on holidays in and out of the City. Cornell runs buses in and out of NYC on a regular basis, 5-hour trips, but nice buses. Check their schedule. You can reserve a seat. If you’re willing to go that far, check out Ithaca for arty, Wells for small LAC with access for some classes to Cornell.
Purchase, closer in, is arty and one of those hidden gems. The notable alumni are many because the arty kids from the City on a budget often think of Purchase as their ace in the hole. Many kids in the City have already attended arts high schools and are on their way to an arts career, and choose Purchase.
Wagner is on Staten Island, LAC campus, solid and oft overlooked, with easy access to the rest of NYC via (free) Staten Island Ferry, directly to the Financial District of lower Manhattan
Pace is in Westchester County, close to NYC and commuter rail line in.
Connecticut College is on Amtrak, a different train line, into the City, not a commuter line (which only goes as far as New Haven).
Trinity College is in the similar range of distance, but you’d need a car to reach NYC or a Grayhound bus (or similar).
Three hours by car from NYC also would get you as far as Hampshire College, Smith, Mt. Holyoke, Amherst, the 5-College consortium, but the feel of those towns is different. they tend to look more towards Boston and not NYC as their major city.
In NJ there’s Princeton, of course, close to NYC. Also Drew university and Seton Hall.
Also, you may want to check out the Macaulay Honors College of CUNY–free tuition, plus stipend, honors classes, And the dealine is early for Macaulay because it competes for kids with Ivy stats
No, my daughter applied RD to all schools, except for EA to Chicago. I would not allow my kids to apply ED.
If your daughter has danced professionally and has strong test scores, I think she’s pretty sure to be admitted to Barnard. They love their dancers.
At the same time, your daughter will find Barnard’s dance program - or any college outside of a BFA program- to be a step down in comparison to the level of training she has already had. If she wants to major in dance she probably should look seriously at the Fordham/Ailey program – if she wants to focus on academics and taper off the dance, then Barnard will be fine and the dance classes are an easy way to meet the phys ed requirement. My daughter enjoyed her dance classes at Barnard – she took an advanced ballet variations class her first semester and that was also the first A+ she earned in college.
I’d suggest that you read about SLC’s educational philosophy and approach on their web site – after you’ve done that I’m happy to answer specific questions. Son had difficulty getting transfer credits for some courses to satisfy general ed requirements at his 2nd college because the interdisciplinary approach didn’t fit very neatly into traditional categories. (I think he got all the credit he needed, but he had to go through extra steps to demonstrate what the courses covered. Fortunately he had saved his course syllabi and reading lists).
I’ve never visited Bard. My daughter loved the study abroad program, but it drew students from many different colleges and the students she got really close to were from Hamilton. That’s a school that was never on our radar – but one that might be worth a look… but also very selective, probably comparable to Vassar.
I’d note that as I am on the west coast I have not done any pre-admission college visits – my DD traveled on her own. I did visit my kids at their respective campuses after they were enrolled.
If dance is the specific “art” of interest, there is a CC “dance major” subforum that can be helpful to non-majors as well. I just scanned my old post there and found the following colleges that may be easier admits than Barnard, besides some of the the ones mentioned already on this thread: Muhlenberg, Mount Holyoke, Goucher, Trinity College (CT). Like the others above, they generally deviate in other criteria. But compromises must be made.
FWIW, at one point some years ago , of the five parents who posted most actively on the Barnard sub-forum, the kids of four of them (at least) were active in dance. My D2 was one of them, but, though she still took dance classes in college, her level of interest started declining during her senior year of HS.
@Dustyfeathers - WOW! Quite a list!! Very helpful to read your experience with Bard students - it may have been overstated in the Princeton Review (and New Yorker article on the college’s president), and just to be clear - I am not anti-intellectualism, my daughter just wouldn’t want to be surrounded by students who are more focused on “acting like intellectuals” than in the genuine and humble pursuit of knowledge. Not saying that is the case for Bard, just the impression. I’ll revisit it with open mind.
Trinity and Connecticut - already on our list : )
But so many other great suggestions - Bennington, UVM, Middlebury, St. Lawrence - all too remote. And cold. The only college she liked in Amherst area was Amherst, and a reach. Princeton too much of a reach as well but will check out other NJ schools you suggested. SLC - if the students aren’t excited to head into Manhattan on a regular basis, probably not her crowd either. As for the CUNY schools - are they free tuition for non-residents? We are not from NY. Hunter looked like a great option, but we worried that those schools are commuter schools, and that many students would be local and not provide a sense of community on campus, if that makes sense. I will look into those (Purchase in particular) and really appreciate your suggestions and time helping us!
Thanks @calmom - I appreciate your optimism! My D was on a professional “track” - she didn’t actually dance professionally with a company, but did have to move away from home to train and do online schooling. As I mentioned earlier, her GPA is lower (3.75 at end of junior year) simply because she didn’t have access to Honors courses junior year and limited APs (will have completed 4). All 'A’s, tests are strong but not exceptional (30 Composite, 31 superscored - I know Barnard doesn’t, but she had 35 & 36 in reading and writing). So we’re worried that this isn’t enough unless they truly consider her holistically.
Your point re: college dance is well made - Barnard is probably the best college dance program for ballet, with Vassar a close second. She actually is redirecting her interest to Psychology which is why she left her ballet training, but would like to enjoy a really strong college program, ideally in NYC : ) where she could attend Steps classes when she had time. She is not interested in becoming a Dance major @monydad but I love that Barnard seems to value those students (I was afraid it might be overrun and not looking for those students!) I will definitely check out the other two schools you recommended - thanks for your feedback!
@betwixt The CUNY schools aren’t free except for Macaulay students. The Macaulay Honors Program is a special program that provides free tuition, stipend, possibly housing (you have to check) and honors classes and activities. There’s a special Macaulay’s community of people with a dedicated building near Lincoln Center. The program is very competitive as I said. CUNY is cheap enough that even OOS she could probably graduate debt free. A gap year in the City before starting would gain her in-state status, for CUNY for for the SUNYs like Purchase.
There is definitely a commuter aspect to the CUNY schools, but there’s also community within the school itself, within a dorm if she chooses, and if she’s Macaulay as I mentioned there’s a separate layer of community for that group.
But really the question is: Does she want this kind of experience? Hunter at least seems more NYU than Barnard, in that the campus is part of the NYC community itself, but in a quieter neighborhood on the Upper East Side. Hunter looks like it has a nice dance program. CUNY City College has more of the Hogwarts campus feel than does Hunter btw, I found this mention of CUNY working to expand dance in NYC http://www.dance.nyc/news/2014/04/CUNY-Launches-Dance-Program-To-Support-New-York-Citys-Dance-Companies-and-Choreographers/.
Pace NYC seems to also offer dance – http://www.pace.edu/academics/undergraduate-students/majors-minors/commercial-dance-bfa
@calmom @monydad @Dustyfeathers - can any of your share your daughter’s experiences interacting with Columbia students - how frequently they were in classes at Barnard, how common it was to have young men in class with them? Our tour guide suggested that there is a free flow between campuses, but have read otherwise on this board (albeit posters for other women’s colleges, who may not know). Thanks!
There were definitely Columbia students in at least some of her classes. .But I couldn’t tell you how many, what proportion, etc., we never discussed it. Sorry.
My recollection is proportionally Barnard students take a material #credits at Columbia, on average…
(Though how material I don’t recall)
And in aggregate Columbia students take nearly the same # credits at Barnard. But since Columbia has many more students, that is a far smaller per-student proportion of their classes… On average.
But still, that would indicate a pretty free flow.
Then there are the extracurriculars, clubs, etc. that are largely shared.
Suggest don’t agonize about these things at this juncture. Your daughter already applied ED. If she gets in she’s going, no matter what somebody tells you about the “free flow” now. She will have her own experience, which may not be identical to my D2’s experience some years ago.
@betwixt – it never was an issue for my daughter. She had friends on both campuses, and about half her classes on the Columbia campus the first couple of years. Because her Russian class met 4 or 5 days a week and was on the Columbia campus, she had to be on that side of the street every day. Her first semester schedule was tight between afternoon and evening classes at Columbia at least 2 evenings a week, which also meant that she usually ate dinner at John Jay. Her closet friends her first year were Columbia students – guys, but friendship, not dating, as she maintained her relationship with her boyfriend in Boston through the end of her junior year.
For casual female friends, she often didn’t even know whether they were Barnard or Columbia students - in fact she was surprised when she graduated and looked through her yearbook to find out that some of her friends were Barnard student. (I imagine that if she met someone in a Columbia class or in connection with a Columbia activity that mentally she would tend to associate the person with that).
My d. is married to a Columbia grad who was a year ahead of her. She met him her senior year at a party that one of her Barnard friends hosted. He and his closest friends came to her graduation and I met them then … and there is a group of his friends and hers from both schools who still socialize - I’ve met them when I’ve visited my dd – and many were part of the wedding party this past summer. D. was a poli sci major, son-in-law was poli sci / econ double major, and they took some of the same courses, same profs, though at different times.
Because both campuses are so small there really isn’t a “feel” of them being separate campuses – it’s just a matter of crossing a street – and my daughter only lived in the quad her first year. Some semesters she would only have classes two days a week at Barnard, so she often didn’t spend that much time on campus. I’d note that she was at Barnard during the construction of the Diana Center, which meant that for at least half of her time, a big chunk of the very small Barnard campus was not accessible – so no real place to hang out if she didn’t have classes. Of course that is not the case any more.
My daughter is a very confident, outgoing person. I think that one of monydad’s daughters reported a different experience. I think that one aspect of my DD’s experience is that she was never tied to the campus – she also regularly socialized with friends from NYU and CUNY (as well as heading up to Boston every other weekend). So I don’t think rivalry between Barnard/Columbia was even on her radar.
He didn’t ask about any rivalry,FWIW… But anyway:
I imagine the exact proportion/frequency of Columbia students in her classes will depend in part on what she takes. Some areas/courses probably experience more cross-registration than others.
If you are majoring in a subject that is housed only at Columbia, or vica versa, then you will probably have more. Is my guess. But it’s likely more complicated than that.
There’s a free flow of people between Barnard and Columbia College. Both colleges are part of Columbia U.